+ 1 Whats more important for 40+ ? Test or HGH
I have read some debates on this over time and curious what your thoughts are. If you had a set amount to budget would you focus more on HGH or on AAS (Test) in regards to anti-aging and staying fit? Both Test and HGH have a pretty significant drop at 40 but which do you think is more important?
My thoughts are its probably a case to case but I am pretty set on the concept of HGH. In my situation I fractured (not broke) a large amount of bones from the car wreck. I also busted my upper aorta and had emergency surgery. The problem was when you young the aorta is bent from the heat vs with older age it is straight making it easier to cut and repair. So I have 2 out layers torn and 2 stents (normally used to open arteries) that act as a band-aid of sorts. Its not real common and only been performed for about the last 8 years or so.
Soooo...my thoughts are obviously Test will help with all around balance mood, muscle and so forth. Some AAS like Deca and EQ are known for strengthening connective tissue and potential bone density increase I believe.
HGH is the thing that makes everything grow as well as bone density correct? I mean excessive use can result in enlarged organs (heart) enlargement of some features. Obviously that's in large dosage over time but you get the point.
So what would you spend more financial resources on HGH or AAS (namely test)?
Which tips the scale more towards the fountain of youth or which would you think would be a better path to reconstruct and improve the body vs redesign?, lol
Any thought or medical links on the matter GREATLY appreciated?......True
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Test controls many thing in your body like tryglicerides
If you have to choose one, Test for sure in my book. MUCH cheaper, don't go overboard on doses, and overall more benefits. It's the base, the foundation, everything else are just add ons.
Your heading in the right direction with your thoughts it seems, however, with your situation and current age, I'd say Test will do more for you overall than just growth alone.
If you can swing it financially, 1cc of Deca and Test Cyp. or Enan. a week and 2 i.u.'s of hGH a day and your Golden. You can also forego the real hGH (if it's not feasible) and use a peptide called Tesamorelin and/or Sermorelin to get your own pituitary to excrete your own growth. A good source for the growth is (the best source hgh dot com). Good luck, and take care. Hit me up if you have any other questions.
B.
Hi True Life,
With you in your quest to step up to the plate with your kids and understand that all you can must be done!
You may want to see about getting proper utility of any growth hormone supplementation. From what I've learned recently, and I'm a newbie to all of this, your GH levels in bloodwork aren't the only thing to look for. Because if it doesn't bind to receptors, it just floats around and is wasted.
The trick, if I am not mistaken, is to simulate a natural GH release with peptides 5 to 10 minutes prior to injecting the GH. This does 2 things. One peptide tells the body that this is a natural surge, so that you don't stop your natural GH production. The other is to make sure the receptors bind and that the GH becomes active in your body.
I will be trying a morning subQ shot of 100mcg Mod GRF 1-29 combined 100mcg of Ipamorelin.
Then 5 minutes later a subQ of 2iu of GH. This way the GH rides the wave and has maximum effect.
I can't confirm this yet personally, since my order of Rips from Roidspot never got to me...
I will be running this without the GH to see if it does help some anyways. Folks say it does.
You can find more about this protocol on a site originally addressing HRT:
http://www.datbtrue.co.uk/forums/forum.php
Best of luck in recovering. I'm sure that with everyone's help here, you'll be back at 'em soon !
Hunk Chunk
PS. I am starting taking Ostarine (pill form) and so far it is "the stuff". TYou may be interested in checking it out. It is mostly for bones and muscles though.
Hey bro I have done both.....at 35 I did hgh and had amazing results.....After 2 years everyone told me to add test because they are a marriage made in heaven...AND they were but be careful not to go over 200 a week on the test because I did and boom within 6 month hair started to thin and recede....This does not happen with hgh from what my doc says but test at a 100 is ususally enough for any man unless your really low..Just a thought as I am now pretty bald after 3 years or do perpecia along with test...........But I am Jacked now at least.....LOL
I would say Test. But for your situation I would say Test and Thymosin Beta 4(TB500) which is a peptide. It is effective in any type of vascular or muscle healing and speeds the healing process resulting in less scaring and inflammation. Look into it. Will do more for your situation than HGH.
Molecular and cellular mechanisms of thymosin β4-mediated cardioprotection.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23045977
Therapeutic potential of thymosin-beta4 and its derivative N-acetyl-seryl-aspartyl-lysyl-proline (Ac-SDKP) in cardiac healing after infarction.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17083265
Thymosin β4: A candidate for treatment of stroke?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3146053/
Thymosin β4: a key factor for protective effects of eEPCs in acute and chronic ischemia
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3601487/
Excellent!!!! Thank you!!!!!! Interesting you mentioned this...I also stumbled on some other peptide/hormone?? For the life of me I cant find the damn link..it was something like MGF or something???? It looked like HGH but it was for repairing tissue...wasn't sure if it was legit...anyway I am reading articles ASAP...thank you bro..+1
I would go with test over gh. while I do love GH, i think for overall better sense of well being, energy, mood enhanced, etc. test will give you all of these. i had very low T levels and then started TRT. huge difference in every aspect. if you are looking at it in more of a financial aspect. test is extremely cheap and if you are going to do TRT doses then a 10ML can last a bit. your insurance may be able to cover it as well. even if you were doing 200mgs a week. 5 bottles or so of test will give you a years worth and that is nothing in terms of price. test and gh make a great combo.
The best answer is neither and both.
There really is no controversy here. You will see that many here refer to TRT (testosterone replacement therapy). I typically refer to HRT (hormone replacement therapy) simply because most of our hormones start declining in our mid 20's. It's also not unusual to have low hormone levels as a young adult due to exposure to xenoestrogens.
The best strategy to maintain optimal health and slow the progression of the degenerative diseases is to correct all deficiencies. This includes:
Pregnenalone
Oxytocin
Cortisol
Aldosterone
Thyroid
Testosterone
HGH
Vasopressin
MSH
IGF-1
Insulin
Estradiol
Progesterone
Do not try insulin, IGF-1, aldosterone, vasopressin or oxytocin unless directed by your doc. Screw up the dose or have an anaphylactic reaction and you can die with first dose.
If any of the above are significantly deficient, you won't feel well. So, the most efficient way to maintain optimal health is to check levels of the above and correct.
If you only had 2 options, testosterone and hgh, and neither is more deficient than the other, then go testosterone. Why? Because testosterone raises IGF-1 in most people by about 100 points with long term therapy.
Excellent knowledge..I have actually looked into many of those, such as the Oxytocin :), and agree those are the basics to watch for. Again excellent knowledge. I guess my thoughts were more along the lines of if you had to choose only one to slow the overall aging men do which would it be. HGH can raise test through loop and test can raise IGF-1 (test 100 and up to Tren 500)
I also have read new studies that HGH does NOT build lean muscle. It is known for increasing LBM but that does not mean increased muscle growth...its been told for years by the companies that produce it that it does in fact act in the way AAS does but studies are showing that's not true. Aids patience gain more muscle tissue from AAS than HGH.
HOWEVER HGH does promote regeneration, elasticity in the skin and over all repair of the body we lose over time.
I'm for some reason very drawn to the idea of HGH and will continue to research it and I plan to stay on as long as I keep having labs and no issues with tumors and so forth obviously.
My last response would be if one feels test is more important then what about HGH along with HCG? HCG of course also raises estrogen but if you balanced it would that not be a better option if your merely looking to get back that youthful Hormone balance?
Just thoughts??
Thanks +1
Thanks bro.
I essentially agree with you regarding the effects of gh. For age management purposes, my experience is that the effects of testosterone are noticed quickly and have a significant impact on mood, energy level and body composition (with proper management of aromatase activity).
If you aren't significantly deficient in growth hormone, then the results of gh administration are more subtle (7 IU/week) and can take much longer to see. If I had to choose one I would absolutely go with the T.
There are a bunch of non specific symptoms associated with gh deficiency. Most notably a lack of gh causes sagging (eyelids, cheeks, belly, inner thighs) and atrophying (genitals, muscles, and bones) to name just a few specific physical symptoms.
200 mg/wk of pharmaceutical grade Testosterone Cypionate will provide dramatic results if your total T is less than 500 ng/dL.
phil113kgI would say the two.
That's my favorite choice...lol
+1
By the way....DAMN your my age :):) Love this forum...so inspiring..:) +1
:):) Yea I figured that's optimal...but I just had to see what the feel was for if you had to choose 1 ;) What about HGH and HCG ???
I'm guessing the reply will be regulating HCG isn't like TEST but again this is for debate and knowledge
Good forum.
I have been using HGH and test off and on for about 5 months now and I can say that Test is most important. If I run out of HGH, it is not noticeable, If I run out of Test, it is Very noticeable, Crash and burn!
Dont want to get out of bed, depressed, eat more, no energy at all.
Take both for the best of both worlds. Just need one to two iu's a day of HGH, I make one box 100 iu's) last 6 weeks if I am feeling a money pinch. if I run out no big deal. I am working in Nicaragua now 4 weeks on, 4 off. leave the HGH home. I am going to have to get a Rx for my Test in the next few weeks, really dont want to leave it home again!
You sure that is real hg?h.....Never heard of mixing for 6 weeks
I total see your view on the sides being more noticeable and which would be more "instant" satisfaction or a more "detrimental" crash but if you could afford HGH all yr round you don't think it would increase those feelings at a more "normal" level?
Test always makes me feel like superman but its not a realistic feel for me. Typically bc I am not taking levels for TRT/HRT I am cycling and my levels are jacked ;)
AnonIf you have arthritus then HGH doesnt do shit for joints, at least not for mine . It makes your skin better and helps w fat loss but I did not find it worth doing if joint repair from inflamation is what your after. Maybe if something was torn .
Deca will increase bone density but also will not heal your joints. The joints will feel good on the deca, but once your done so is the relief from pain.
You better be real careful if you run Deca or EQ though, both will raise your RBC and with those stints I dont know if thats good or not. Research that a bit.
Testosterone gives the best bang for the buck , but still I dont know if Id call it a fountain of youth.
Sorry I have not been on in awhile.....HGH isn't proven to increase lean MUSCLE but increases LBM (which includes things such as connective tissue, bones, and so forth not just lean muscle.
Most aids patients got more (much more) skeletal muscle gains from AAS. I have a chart somewhere I can dig up.
Many newer studied done by "non-producing HGH companies" or Independence labs are actually saying this the story was started by the main companies to appeal to BB everywhere.
I will have to dig them up.
What is not disputable is HGH can repair and encourage organs to grow as well as bone growth (in some cases to much) correct?
So my main hope for the HGH is anti-aging, making sure cells are repairing as If i was in my early 30's and most of all I am wondering if it will repair ripped arteries such as my upper main aorta.
You made some very, very good points I have not thought about. I do need to watch the movement of the stints as well as if some healing does take place how it will work with a stint sticking to it. great point!!
The final need is that I feel HGH just has synergy and anabolic compounds and will help natural levels to stay more intact rather than total suppression. I also plan HCG throughout and long after the PCT and then remain on TRT & HGH for awhile. (if I reached my goals ;)
OK as for the bone fractures, I have in multiple parts, and some possibly damaged connective tissue. That's why I order EQ. I know everyone may say NO USE DECA but if I can find my articles I have several scientific articles not board talks that actual document & proof EQ and DECA, while very similar, EQ far takes the lead in repairing CONNECTIVE TISSUE.
I'm also starting with Anadrol to hope for water weight to get passed the initial pain and-yes strength. Anadrol for me and what I have read is the AAS you almost cant over train with. I will not just be hitting the weight but also the program "Insanity" work out. I'm pushing my body in many directions not just to build mass. I want to feel like a marine again! Ready to do some recon and be and all around athletic not just a BB. This is what my kids need to see and feel to be safe after their losing their mom. I cant just "get in shape" they need the real me back!!
I'm looking to build not just muscle but regain flexibility and many other lost traits. I needed to bean all around soldier again. Then on to CYP and run that with the HGH fairly long at yes fairly high until I am ready for "real TRT" So the cycp will go hig dosage 12 weeks min the HGC then down to what I want my TRT to be. Anadrol in the beginning until my body feels its time. I trust my body. And perhaps the last 4 weeks I may very well make my own tren and hit it hard for 4 weeks with prop just before PCT
I am very tiered so hope this makes sense...loved your comment and would like to talk further about it either here or message.
Thank you for looking out...I really love this 40+ forum.
I have met some amazing brothers....OOOHHH RAHHH.....True
Good info--I may PM you w/ advice after I read thru a few more forums.
Sorry bro just saw this...I have so much going on it's so hard to keep up with this board :( PM away man I love to chat and share info.. just be patient with my replies ;)
No worries--I'm getting to it late too.....I've gone over on the TRT direction w/ Nebido...but I'm having sides....
I agree with first checking to see where your Test levels are at and then deciding which one would be the better option. I think for overall sense of well being that Test will be better option if your levels are low.
There are a lot that GH offers in terms of anti-aging, etc benefits and will increase your overall life quality. My determining factor would be where I stand at by getting blood work done to get Test levels along with IGF.
This is a very solid response that would be very applicable to each individual needs..:):) I am sure this would be my DR answer as well but I am curious from AAS "users" which they feel is most valuable and also from the "anti-aging" users.
Aging is a major concern for me especially with all my injuries. So I am focused on youthful regeneration as much as possible.
I am also looking into natural things that keep the body clean and balanced..thanks
If you could have only one, definitely testosterone 1000%.
Wait private MD labs does the testing or send it to be tested? Look at this test by them it was Lab Corp that ran the labs? Thats who I am making appointment with. (Lab corps) Am I reading this wrong?
http://www.eroids.com/sites/default/files/gearpic/20108/mutarips1%20-%20...
Privatemdlabs has contracts with lab corp. if you go to lab corp directly, you're gonna pay more than if you go thru privatemdlabs.
So do they act as a doctor ordering it or do you still need a referral from DR if your state requires? I'd love to pay $60 instead fo $300 and a physical lol
You order it yourself. No doctor. Go check out their website.
I will...I thought it depended on the state? I am in KY and we require an actual Doctor to request blood work through Lab-Corp...I'm going to go check though...this ass is charging me $335 for a CMP14+LP+CBC/D/Plt+TSH+PSA+ and when I noticed there was no estrogen check I asked to add an estradiol....so $335 can get me a bit more gear..;) or allot more labs !!
really you just need the metabolic panel (can do without), test serum, free test, e2, lh and fsh, as well as pituitary. the tsh is an added bonus, as well as the prostate.
Sorry as always I am behind on post.... thanks bro....the testing is so new to me I'm just not sure what is really important so thank you for the info
Test is generally prescribed bro, and it should be everything you need, well being, libido, strength, muscle gains and the rest. HGH can come in handy but its not really necessary unless you have low gh levels. Test increases IGF levels in any case and it always does the job if the dose is right.
Yea I have always had good luck with AAS and have done large cycles for many years BUT I've been out of it for so long I have no idea how it will work...I will get blood work and post it..hoping to get it all wrapped up by next week..just waiting on appointment..:)
As for what I am trying to gain...my days of being a juice head are gone HOWEVER I am not ok with present condition or just being "normal" I'm looking to be fit take my time, do it right and stay on as long as the bank will allow.....this doctor is F'N EXPENSIVE, lol
No one should have to deal with being told they are 'normal' when they are not, I hear you brother. Treatment can be pricey but if it gives you that spark of happiness and normality - its well worth the price.
Thats what I am banking on man...I really need it in a bad way...I have really hit a bottom and that's not like me. I've always been a fighter, strong man but these last few years I don't even want to get out of bed.. :/ If it wasn't for my kids its hard to say if i would get out of it! lol
I hear you brother, I felt like shit when I couldn't get treatment and I was only 20 - it wrecked my life at that time, I stopped socialising, dating, everything man. So I know what you feel like at least to a certain level. Your kids should be all the support you need bro, and if you need any more, you can always hit me up on here, there are a few of us that have gone through this nightmare... there is a light at the end of the tunnel, just have to find it.
:):) +1
Sorry for butting in on this conversation. But man it's so good to know I'm not alone in this situation. Levels plummeted about 5 years ago and I thought I was losing it. And so did the people around me. I had been the strength for my lady and the kids. And suddenly I couldn't get my arse into gear. This is what I've been looking for. Cheers guys.
Your not butting in at all brother...just as you are glad to have read this I am also glad you responded. Its a horrible feeling as most of us on here know. I love this forum and wish I had more time to spend on it. I am with you and thank you for your reply..FR sent +1
keep in mind that exogenous test will suppress natty test production. this means HPTA is shut down temporarily, and cycles and PCT must be incorporated. if his natty levels are fine, hgh will actually increase the positive feedback loop, rather than shut down HPTA function thru negative feedback.
really depends on what he's hoping to accomplish, as well as natty levels.
That was my experience also
Reading this again you are right on my lines of why I asked...Test is instant glory but I am asking about long term maintenance to fight natures course..:) +1
I have always planned a good PCT and even hit HCG in the middle of some long cycles (mostly for atrophy so wife didn't notice, lol) but I'm with you on the test results..I ordered everything other than the HGH but not starting until I know 100% what my baseline is then will re-test.
Also this Dr. assistant I spoke with sounds like this place always gives test no matter the results..I may be wrong but his terminology really pointed to knowing I would be prescribed it bc I'm 40, lol He kind of made me feel pretty old....We shall see!!!
Thanks for the advice!!!
If he is on trt or plans to be, there is no need for a pct, trt is generally for life... especially being 40 plus years old. While I agree that HGH would increase his test levels as a result of various loops as you've stated, instant test being shot is is a better alternative - HGH takes a while for the benefits to show, whilst test e would have him feeling good within days. A doctor will most likely prescribe test in any case if he needs it, unless there is a problem with the gh levels. Blood work is key too, T, E, Thyroid, SHGB - the works. As you've stated, its down to his goals whether he would rather go on trt or not.
HGH its such a debatable thing bc your right it can vary from user to user. And I agree short term effects vary, however, I think when allot of people are on both HGH and AAS they think the HGH is hitting fast but IMO they are mistaking it for the AAS.
Just from personal experience if I say I got quick results from HGH I don't mean 2-4 weeks. Progress made that fast would be from a fast acting ester. I really thing people mistake that allot but I tend to avoid mentioning it bc its always been a blown up debate back in the old boards.
I fully believe unless you run HGH long term its really pointless from a financial standpoint and body building standpoint. I hope that doesn't offend anyone that does take it short term , off and on, but I've only been able to truly say (without labs) that the HGH gave me benefits after a longer term.
I look at the AAS (Prop, dbol, deca and enan) as a way to break past a hard comeback or get over a sticking point. As you mentioned a faster "feel good" for the first 12 weeks or so?
PCT even if I was going to do TRT long term I think is still needed? I am going to jack my test levels in every way above "normal" and beyond what he will be trying to get them at with TRT. That means there will be some decent amount of conversion to progesterone/estrogen correct? ( I know Deca is debatable about progesterone)
I'm thinking he will test me regularly so I cant go back with superman's test results nor with wonder woman's estrogen.
How often do DR typical test you when in TRT?
try taking serostim......I felt different after one week.....Completely different
Bro, in my opinion, AAS is the perfect way to 'break past a hard comeback' as you've put it, that is why trt is here today too, to help men get back on their feet.
Now onto the AAS's you've mentioned - to 'feel good' a dose of 250mg of test a week [or once every two weeks in some circumstances depending on how you feel and bloodwork] is all that is needed, as I'm sure you know as your experianced with the use of AAS already. Generally, on a good dose of test you will feel
better for even beyond 12 weeks, its others like dbol and tren that may take a toll eventually.
PCT is not needed during trt in my opinion, why would you want to add clomid/nolva into the mix every now and then if you plan on staying on trt for life? Doctors generally test whenever they feel like monitoring your levels, it could be every 3 months or less.
Deca is a 19nor just like tren, it can aggrevate estrogen only if there is a high presence of estrogen already in the body, as it increases progesterone. If you are set on a cycle then deca would work well with test as long as your estrogen levels are in check. Test aromatises into estrogen via the aromatase enzyme and this varies from person to person, so its crucial that blood work is drawn first. To counter any estrogen side effects, you may need to use an AI such as Aromasin if necessary but your doctor may even prescribe one for you. There will be no 'wonder women' estrogen levels on your blood work if estrogen is in check.
Dbol converts to methylestradiol which is stronger than regular estradiol. This may show up if they were testing you, I personally wouldn't use dbol if the intention is to get your test levels up and running again as it sort of defeats the purpose. But if you were only going to cycle dbol and test only, then that shouldn't be too much of an issue as dbol cycles last between 4-5 weeks depending on experiance and tolerance.
Mast is not as harsh as the 19nor steroids like tren or deca and you wont get estrogen effects from it as it is a DHT compound so it works well with test. But if you are prone to acne/hairloss/prostate issues, mast could worsen them. If not, then it is a combo well worth looking into even on trt.
I'm sorry bro, if you already know this stuff - it just spills out of me and I would rather explain even in full instead of one or two paragraphs lol. There are quite a few options bro, I am one of those people who think less is better in regards to cycles... I find a combo like test and dbol or test and mast easily managable and less taxing on ones body.
I hope everything works out for you bro and always keep us updated on here man, you are already have experiance. Only we know our own bodies, right?
P.S Brother, I just read that you are a single parent, I feel for you man. Kids are important. So whatever you decide bro, always put them first as I'm sure you already do.
peace man,
Jasm87