posted Fri, 01/06/2012 - 07:52
4762
Next cycle: test p/tren a/anavar - suggestions?
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stats :
25 yrs old
5'9"
197 lbs
<10% bf
training for 8 years
2 inject cycles
I'm coming off current cycle now, so this was just ordered for sake of running prob mid-summer, but looking for advice/suggestions from the bro's (and grrrrllssss)
1-12 100mg test p EOD (will increase dosing if little sides)
2-10 75mg tren a EOD (will increase dosing if little sides)
6-12 60mg anavar ED
500iu hcg wks 2-11/12
caber on hand for .25 eod based on sides
adex on hand for .5 eod based on sides
PCT - nolva 40/20/20/20 and aromasin at 25/25/25/25 - I also add test force 2 on week 3. has always felt good in past
I see this cycle adding some serious shred, strength, and good retainable weight with little bloat. any insight from some of the vet members here?
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Honestly bro, I think you get better results doing ED test p and tren a:
100mg test p ED wks 1-12
75-100mg tren a ED wks 2-10
and 40-60mg Var ED wks 6-12
Anon75-100mg of tren ED for 10 weeks???
I am on this exact same cycle. This will be my 2nd time around with Prop/Tren and I love it. However, it is my first time doing Anavar ED.
My first Tren cycle, I started my dosage at 25mg for the 1st week, and slowly climbed to 75mg where it seems to be my strong point. I tried 100mg and boy were the sides vicious! I had acne all over my chest pretty much overnight!
I am doing prop @ 125mg this cycle and keeping Tren @ 75mg. (I suggest starting at 50mg, at 25mg I couldn't tell a thing)
Started week 2 on Monday, I am up 6-7lbs, and some pretty ridiculous strength already. (The quickest I have ever felt a short ester hit me) Veins on my arm, I didn't even knew existed.
I usually start feeling gyno coming right around this week. Took 12.5mg of Aromasin last night and will continue to do it ED.
I will wait till week 4 or 5 for HCG.
I also run 12 weeks of prop, and 10-11 weeks of Tren. I had really great success on my last cycle.
Seems like you got all the right gear in hand, good luck bro! Your going to love it!
12.5mg ED of aromasin is way too much. You'll also want some caber/prami/bromo (preferrably the first two) for tren-gyno.
Eliminating your estrogen entirely from this cycle is a bad idea. How much test are you running exactly?
How do you figure it's too much, if it comes in 25mg tablets? It's aromasin not arimidex? I have been told for numerous years, 12.5 is the starting dose.
I also have Caber on hand for prolactin related gyno. .5 E3D for that...
I don't know if the test questions was directed to me but it would be:
Low week 375mgs, high week 500mgs
AnonAro is fine.. Think of it as a tetor totter. first we have to realize that ALL our estrogen is aromtised. so when we take from T to make E, what happens to T? when we slow production of E what happens to T? now this is very basic cause the curve ball, which can happen over time, is the negative feedback loop. meaning if E gets suppressed too much our body will not make as much T. this takes a while though and doesnt matter when we are injecting.
In the properly functioning male body we convert roughly 3% of our T to E and 7% of our T to DHT.
aromasin is about 11% stronger than adex, dont confuse suicidal with strength, that is not what it has to do with.
in men 25-50mg lowers e like 45% after 10 days.
so you will have higher TT as a result of E inhibition, an subsequently higher free, not %, but total, cause the 2% (free) is now a bigger number cause total T is a bigger number.
Aromasin also lowers SHBG though, so it also helps free T that way.
so its all depending on what choices he makes..
I would like to add that the estrogen in itself is not only anabolic, but can also have a positive effect on cholesterol and support your bones. The water weight you gain through the aromatisation also helps buffer joints.
This is especially important on a compound like tren, where your strength is drastically increased. Otherwise you are much more susceptible to injuries.
However, I would try a 12.5mg e3d and see how that serves you. Bump it up if you feel the need.
OJ is right when he says it is dependant on bodyfat, it is a direct determinant of the level of aromatisation.
Aromasin is also great for PCT.
AnonBeautifully put EB .. everyone demonizes estrogen but they have little idea what estrogen can do at the proper levels..
AnonGotta have that beautiful balance
Great information bro! This is my first time trying out Aromasin instead of Arimidex. I felt like Adex did not help me combat gyno in any of my cycles.
My bf is somewhere around 13-14%. 6'2 228lbs
You think I should wait one more day to take another 12.5mg dose?
AnonI would say EOD at a 12.5 with your BF..
Agreed. 10% is more like e3d. Lower than that can technically be e4d, depending on the dosage of gear you are running.
Personally, I tend to use AIs only at higher dosages of testosterone. Not prone to gyno however.
Anon+2
Aromasin and Raloxifene is a PCT combo that a lot of people tend to over look.. In my opinion, its my personal favorite. A lot of people don't step outside the boundaries of what is considered to be the norm though.
Feel the same way man, although the nolva/clomid combo isn't too bad either. I'm still wary of HCG use, simply because the vulnerable parts of the HTPA axes are the hypothalamus and the pituitary.
Now if we use compounds like aromasin/raloxifene/nolva/clomid which stimulates the production of LH and FSH within pituitary and hypothalamus, then the testicles will resume activity.
However, if you are already stimulating only your testicles with the HCG, causing release of testosterone and estradiol, then the hypothalamus and pituitary have no "incentive" to resume their function.
Would also like to hear what you think about restoring "broken" HTPA axes. Have been reading many studies lately, some of the older ones showing clomid taken over the course of 2 months @ 100mg ED to be effective. Have also heard about triptorelin, but doubt that peptide sources have the real deal, like decapeptyl 0.1
AnonAs for the HPTA axis, reading about building up glutathoiine through the methylation cycle.. gonna have to spend some time later tonight poking around and seeing what info I can soak up.
Relevant info for that matter.
AnonAfter AAS cessation the secretion of LH is SHIT. It will not be able to initiate T production until a certain stimulus LH level is reached. Studies have shown that the time for this to occur can be lengthy. Thus the idea is to push the testicles with hCG and get them started. Once T production is initiated the dependent variable is LH. If the hCG is withdrawn without adequate LH to couple with the testicles return of HPTA functionality will fail.
The increased production of LH is achieved by a dual action of clomiphene citrate and tamoxifen. Clomis is a mixed agonist/antagonist (SERM) at the estradiol receptor. Clomid will increase the secretion of LH by action at the hypothalamo-pituitary area. Clomiphene will cause an increase in LH and secondarily increases in T and estradiol. Estradiol has a negative feedback influence on the HPTA. Estradiol is 200X the inhibitory effect of T per basis.
Ive been trying to find some decent case studies on the clomid thing.. it does bring up a valid point. A lot of the ones are showing the test subjects to be on a 50mg dose for 5 months then showing progress.. gonna have to spend some more time on it..
With normal levels being;
on a side note-- normal levels.
Testosterone: 3-10 ng/ml
Estradiol: 15-65 pg/ml
Some good info. I have a study on my computer that shows a test subject that had a t-level of 71 ng/dl.
He was first put on a 100mg ED clomiphene protocol. The result was that two weeks later his total testosterone was at 828 ng/dl. Two months later, however, his levels had returned to 301 ng/dl.
So he was hence put on 100mg for 2 months, after which his levels were at 705 ng/dl and remained normal. The study is from 2003 however.
AnonClomid shoots test about 150% of baseline value I believe.. so that makes perfect sense..
So I wonder why the Clomid doesn't stimulate the HPTA for a long enough period to cause the Test levels to bounce back and remain constant.. whereas, a prolonged dose is needed..
the other question I ponder... what does the variable of time play on the bodies systems, and does it have an correlation with this prolonged use of clomid.
I omitted the fact that the first run of clomid was only for 5 days.
A broken "axis" simply needs a prolonged period of stimulation, rather than a short quickstart.
Why that is the case I can't tell you, would be interesting to know however.
Anonill find some better information on this. just woke up, and going back to sleep in attempts to fix my broken sleep schedule..
Anon12.5 on the aro should be dependent on his BF, and running it for a short spurt would help tap into some free test.. aro is good shit. 25mg is too much, 12.5 should be fine.
& agreed on estrogen elimination.
True, I really only take it if I need it!
is this for me or ricer?
I have caber on deck @ .25 eod based on sides. the test p will be 700mg/week
How are you going to be 700mg/week if you are pinning 100mg EOD?
Anonyou're running the tren too long bro..
good call on the 12.5 aro though
tread-mI'm a 100 ed prop on this one, tren at 30 to start and work up to 50 from there if needed for 8 weeks max and "personally might run the var at 80 split ed for the final 4 but where you are is in line. Well thought out post. My reasoning on test P being at 100 ed or even 150 eod is that this is your test for the cycle, its not accomanied by a long or used as a jump or taper, it is the test. So you have to think of the fact that free test plasma levels will rise in 6 hrs following about hr 6 after popping prop and completely drop in testing following 48 hrs. You are not "stacking" ester as you do in a long ester. Having said that I never count mg's of prop by the week as in this would be 700 mg's in a week. You would do that if the first shot of the week was still in release or in free test count in the body on day 7 but its not. On day 7 your first shot of the week has been gone for 4 or 5 days to where a long ester builds more than it depletes during the course of a cycle. Remember as well, pct will start much quicker than when running long esters. Your free test levels will plummet by hr 72 following last pop of prop in this cycle. These are my opinions of course and should be thought of in that way, a good example of 100 eod on prop is my cruise, thats not very much test when you figure it fully depletes in 48 hrs so you cant compare it to running 700 mgs of long ester in terms of longer term free test levels.
nice bro. certainly makes sense. I was thinking the same thing, and that clears it up to convince me to ED my prop. ill start at 30 tren EOD. that makes sense to me too. I personally like to shoot delts and glutes. are 4 inject spots enough for ED jabs? or should I man up and hit my quads?
I know its hard w/o my diet, but would you anticipate some reasonable weight gain from this cycle? I'd assume slight weight gain and a ton of body re-comp.
last questions... pct 2 or 3 days after last prop shot? end hcg 1 week prior to pct?
AnonI don't believe HCG is a necessity for this one..
PCT starts 3 days after
Slight weight gain, more quality muscle than anything. Lean and hard brother!
You can shoot 2 inject spots if you want, but you might not be able to walk or move. Thats just personal preference.. bigger the rotation, the better. Do the little things like warming your gear and so forth.. to make things a little smoother on your part. Tread said it on the ED prop too..
thanks bro. i appreciate all the help on this one
AnonNot a problem bro.. hope this helps you have a smoother cycle.. should be a lean fucking machine after this baby!
Anonnice post brother. I was hoping I wasn't too far off since I'm not a tren guy.
tread-mAlways like your tren work, tren does not have to be miserable, people make it miserable! Lol. Thats all this though, 500 mgs long ester test is going to do the same as 1500 just without all the insane sides and yet people think more is better, its just not...there is a level of saturation and overkill and I just don't get all the suffering people put themselves through. I guess its a learning thing! Lol
AnonSpoken as a true veteran.. starting low and finding a healthy dose is key. Why start tren at 100mg, when you could start at 25 and it only takes a few days to assess how the jump in dose makes you feel... rather than putting yourself into the shit hole.
AnonBro, 12 weeks of prop is too long to accompany it.. I would like to see this cycle tweaked some..
I would start with the tren at 50 or even as low as 25mg EOD and assess the side effects before you work your way up.
Also, I think the tren should be ran at 8 weeks only..
Just a start.. I like the nolva and aromasin.. I would say do the aromasin at 25/25/12.5/12.5
X2 on everything above, that's some solid advice there bro.
AnonThanks brother
Give them a vote if you find it helpful.PermalinkI like that. I have the tren at 8 weeks now.
Would you suggest more of a wks 1-10 on test p with 2-8 tren a?
I feel like I've always been instructed to start and stop tren a with a 2 week cushion on either side of the test. is that wrong?
AnonWith saying that, I am not a tren expert.. I've never run it myself.. just going on what I know brother
AnonA lot of people enjoy tapering off the test in transition to a smoother post cycle.. to avoid a crash. but the tren is a short ester as well (duh)
So if you want, you could run:
Tren 1-8 at 25mg (climb to tolerable peak) I would really start low and see how it hits you bro, you're still a youngin.
Test prop 100mg EOD 1-10
Not sure how I feel about the var, but if it is a viable option I personally would go 5-10 @ 50mg.
Aromasin kinda goes hand in hand with your BF. I wish more people used it in their PCT, it taps into free test per se. after this cycle you should be pretty lean, so a 25/25/12.5/12.5 would suffice for that..