Confused if I should start with blast and cruise
Probably some of you guys will remember my last post where I asked for advice as to why was I losing all my gains after coming off of my first cycle. Despite all that was said the main reason why I think I lost most of it is because my testosterone levels have never been too high to start with, so I decided to get a blood test and while I waited for the results, made up my mind that perhaps the best for me would be to start on blast and cruise.
Well, results came back today and, to my surprise, everything seems to be in the normal range, which is making my decision all the more difficult. This is what I got being 30 y/o and coming out of my PCT (6 weeks after my last injection):
Estradiol: 42pg/L (normal <60)
Testosterone: 579,3 ng/dL (normal 300-1050)
Free testosterone: 19,98 pg/mL (normal 5,5-42)
Cortisol: 17,6 ug/dL (normal 4,3-22,4)
LH: 5,2 UI/L (normal 1,5-8)
FSH: 1,1 UI/L (normal 1-15)
Prolactine: 12,2 ug/L (normal 2,1-17,7)
So everything looks normal as far as I can tell, but then why am I feeling like shit, losing all muscle and putting on fat in places where it should not be like glutes and thighs? I still think I should switch to blast-and-cruise, but this results aren't making my decision any easier.
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AnonAnyone can stack on bulk, or look good while injecting a few compounds.. but the discipline of diet, proper training and so on.. is what helps us maintain that OH SHIT look when you're 100% natty
AnonDiet is the key to off cycle gains, and maintaining them, for that matter.
tread-mYou're too young for blast and cruise with those levels. You ca n run around in here and talk about how bad you want it and how you are a hard gainer and bow much you love BB etc etc but that does not change anything, it is what it is. Your test levels won't be that much higher on cruise unless you are just convincing yourself you are cruising and running year round blasts in different variation. Building is diet and if you lose all your gains in pct then you either don't have the proper diet in pct or your gains were shit or you never have the right diet. You say you want it bad then you have to prove it with diet, that is the real work. If I could see your diet and you were honest about it I guarantee you that same diet won't keep gains in a cruise if you are actuall in an "honest" cruise. I'm watchi ng you in this thread, you're not being honest with yourself, simply trying to talk yourself into something you are not ready for. You have no intentions of walking the stage you just want this. So here is what you do with your current test levels IMO...go to jaycutler.com and click on blueprints. Follow that diet for each month for 1 year. If you can do that then you are ready to BB. If you can't you never will be IMO. Thats the work brother, not chat, not gym ,not compounds...DIET. I have been a harrd gainer all my life so save your speech since I already read it, read the whole thread. You will not succeed if this is your dream without the right diet B&C or no B&C. Prove you can handle that diet and then you think the way your thinking. What you're doing is saying "oh I don't need to lay any ground work, just put me straight in the Olympics, I want it bad". Well prove you want it bad. Now if tbhats been the sort of diet you have been on and you didn't pull into 1 single fastfood joint during your entire pct and you are on a builders diet and lost your gains and the gains wer made without a single trip through McDonalds the entire cycle..again, I stand corrected. I know different, you didn't have the proper gains and you didn't use a builders diet on or off cycle, just tell me I'm wrong and we have a whole different conversation. Thing is, hard gainer or not, the test levels are there for you to achieve "WITH AN ACTUAL BUILDERS DIET". If you look at any of these guys who are BB and think they do that with the diet you used then you are living in a fantasy world, which with one cycle and the patience you displayed after one, I think you are anyway. Find a plan, with someone who actually has one, and make it your Religion...diet, gym, sleep, supps and standard compounds in proper order on cycles not B&C and IF. That fails then you come back and the other conversation begins. You are trying to jump to step 10 from 1 and whjile many will guide you along I won't. One cycle...really? And heres the other thing, you tested before the proper time for natty to recover 100% so you are actually even higher than that. Heres my advice and its free so if you don't take it then it was worth exactly what it cost you, slow down and find patience, it is the one thing successful people have in common that actually make it to their goals. Run a few cycles and figure out the diets for builders. If you don't succeed after a couple years to the degree you are moving in the right direction then its another conversation. You do realize these guys spend 10, 15 and 20 years getting to their goals and thats with an actual BB diet dialed in as consistant as the sun. Its work brother not a forum where you talk yourself into something hopeing someone will agree so you feel better about it. I want you to succeed but I don't see the patience in you that indicates that will ever happen. One cycle, good test not even fully recovered and we are talking B&C?
Hi Tread and thanks for your reply. It was a long and hard read, but here's what I have to say.
You mention Jay Cutler's blueprints. I had already heard about them, read some and they're ok. Here's how my diet compares to his (and I'm being honest both with myself and with you). My protein intake is around half as his because I'm aiming for 40g of protein per meal (my weigh is probably a half of Jay's, so I guess that's fair). I don't think I could process much more protein anyway as that's more than 3g per kilo in my case. Everything else in my diet is on point with Jay's or any other bodybuilder: I do 6-7 meals a day, I eat my carbs (whole wheat), shakes, creatine, aminos, caseine at night... I won't bother you guys with my exact diet unless you want me to, but to give you an idea: my first meal is 7 egg whites and 2 yolks cooked with spinach and tomato and two slices of whole grain bread. My second, 3 hours later is a bowl of oats with a scoop of protein and soy milk. Bodybuilding food. Oh, and I haven't been to a fast food restaurant in years: hate that stuff and it leaves me hungry.
Workout-wise I've been training for more than 12 years and tried everything: more reps, fewer, less exercises... in the last months I've found a new workout buddy and he used to be a bodybuilder and powerlifter. We train the same way and lift around the same weights. I get home almost every workday at 11 pm after going to the gym and I love it. I wouldn't know what else to say to express the kind of dedication that I have for this sport.
I don't think I deserve the kind of disbelief I get in this forum whenever I mention that I'm a hard gainer. I agree though that it might seem like I'm going too fast if I'm considering blast and cruise just after my first cycle but I think it's happened in a natural progression: if cycling is not the right thing for me and I'm going to lose all my gains then maybe this other thing is.
Anyway and I want to make this part of my response extensive to EVERYONE: thank you guys for your help. Of all the forums I've known all these years this is the one that gives more accurate and uncensored advice and that makes it the best. Just one little thing: whenever someone says they're a hard gainer, maybe they're lazy or impatient or ignorant of the bodybuilding ways, but maybe they really are hard gainers!
tread-mSounds good and congratulations on the dedication. The one thing I don't see and admitedly I don't have the whole diet, is the meat. "Wheres the beef"? Lol. I'm sure you are getting it but at your weight you would need around 3 lbs of meat daily to achieve bulk and that is with good heavy lifting which I think you are doing. Now I'm not bashing hard gaining and believe me when I tell you I get it! I ran the "actual" Cutler diet and still fell again after stretching my insides out beyond belief . I hurt for months once I depriciated the calories and still found it hard to want to eat. The thought of food would gag me but as a hard gainer I achieved. Its meat though IMO and the more red and chicken the better. These guys will eat as much as 8 lbs a day which is where I go even though Jay only out weighs me by 40 lbs at comp time. I should be getting 4 lbs but with all
The other essentials I can't do it. I eat myself full when I eat and push it a little further and stop. I have a saying I use a lot that I borrowed, "If something is not working for you, stop doing it". Your first loss is your best loss so when something won't work after a couple months change it. This is not working so change it by adding meat. I know you are getting some meat I'm juzst saying get more. And then when more stops working ,get more. You push diet just like you push the heavier weight. Kinda like if the spotter you have making you push harder and get 2 more reps made you get 2 more chunks of meat and find a way to get it down. I want your success don't get me wrong, I just think you have more in you and trying to dig it out. I don't mean to be harsh if I come off that way, I just think everyone but you may know you can do this. Quit repeating the same shit expecting a different outcome...constant change till you find it. If you want B&C thats your business, I just think you have options you may not be looking at, thats your business as well. Just helping look for answers brother because I really think they are there.
Thanks for your reply dude.
I admit I don't eat red meat (try to work in a couple of home made hamburgers and stuff, but it's just not my thing) but at least two of my meals are made of chicken. I appreciate the advice and will probably introduce some changes in my diet upping my carbs and maybe a tiny bit the proteins, but I'm against the idea of following these diets publicized by professional bodybuilders because I think most of the time they're propaganda to make little kids believe they're natural and that you can't grow like them unless you eat those monster servings of everything (I'm not talking about Jay Cutler specifically and I think his "blueprints" are legit) but also because, lets face it, at the end of the day it comes down to protein synthesis: if you're using all the proteins you eat then good for you, if your body refuses to then eating more protein won't do anything for you. There's debate weather the recommended amount for athletes and bodybuilders should be between 1.25 and 2.50; I'm beyond that threshold which is why I think more proteins are not what I need.
Protein synthesis seems to be regulated by testosterone which is why I always thought I was testosterone deficient and why the results of this test have come as a surprise to me. If it's not that then maybe it's high estrogen that I produce naturally as someone below suggested so I've got back on Adex. We'll see where that brings me and I'll keep you guys updated.
Anyway, the thing is I was considering BC but now I'll probably postpone that decision at least for another 6 months, do a second regular cycle and try to keep improving. To you and everyone on this thread, thanks for your advice.
You are far better off than men on TRT, which is what you are basically proposing. Those are arguably great natural test levels, but everyone's body responds very differently at different levels. The last time I was in the 500s (due to fake gear) I was deflated and my body fat increased higher than its ever been my entire life. I also felt like shit. I 'cruise' between 900-1000, and then 'blast' on my cycles. But I am also on life-time TRT at 33. If I could change things I've done that lead me to this predicament I would but these are the cards life delt me. I want to be a bodybuilder more than I can express here. You have to ask yourself if you want the same. Are you willing to pay the life-time price? Or are you just looking to be Billy-Tank-Top at the next alumni frat party?
Dude, bodybuilding is what I like most in life. I'm not cut for it or in the age to dedicate to it professionally but I swear it's one of the things I love most in the world. Problem is I don't look like either a bodybuilder or a Billy Tank Top or anything: I'm as hard a gainer as can be and I'm willing to do anything to fix that. I had already wrapped my mind to make the switch to blast and cruise despite the drawbacks that might have but if my testosterone levels are already on the high side then maybe I should try to find out what other thing could be wrong.
I feel as equally passionate about bodybuilding too - so make your choice and then do the very best you can with that decision.
Thanks dude!
mazarNo offence to the both of you but all of us here love bodybuilding. If everyone used this mindset this forum would have been a trt forum. Your test levels are much higher that people that dont even consider trt. Different levels have different effect on people like beast says but still no excuse to go full trt on 30 if you are not a proffesional. What if you want to travel or want to have kids? What if you have an accident (knock on wood) and cant pin? Worst of all you are going to ruin your natty which is quite decent. Change your diet to test boosting foods (red meat, eggs, cabbage, chelery, nuts etc) and maybe try some tribulus off cycle? There is loads of things one can do with your levels you could even use a bit hcg/proviron off cycle. Whatever you do think it 100 times over. It is a lifelong commitment.
This site attracts more first time gear buyers and users than any other site I've ever run across. With that in mind, my question is valid. Some people here want to get into shape and start working out for the first time in their life, this is far different from an actual bodybuilder. Both, at least on this site, are likely going to use gear to promote their goals. The guy wants to be a bodybuilder more than anything else, then I say let him become one. I've found over the years the people with fantastic bodybuilding genetics are always quick to tell hard gainers and people who aren't as blessed to go about it in different ways. After a point, there is only so much natural will take you. That point is different for everyone. For those of us who don't have amazing genetics, gear is another option to make that dream possible. Just because someone doesn't want to compete as a bodybuilder doesn't make their dream any less relevant to become one.
mazarI dont have amazing genetics i am in the same predicament as you two. I am not trying to stop him from becoming a bodybuilder nor i will push him to become one. I have the same thoughts as this guy i have been researching day and night on trt and the grass is not greener on the other side esp when you have as much total test as him. Genetics have nothing to do with it at the end of the day it is all about addiction and acceptance. You cant leave without feeling good and you cant accept the loss of gains. A bodybuilder should like bodybuilding while on as much as he likes it on the off. I am not a hardgainer but i am an endomorph with ecto qualities propably the worst combo out there. If you are making money from it by all means take the risk if not why risk it when you could manage without?
I hope I'm not making it seem like I'm taking TRT lightly because I never take anything lightly much less something like this. It's only that the way I estimated my testosterone all my life it should be on the low side and seeing all my gains go during my PCT made me think blast and cruise could be the way to go for me. As I said, these test results are making me reconsider all that. I haven't decided against blast and cruise yet, mind you, but I have to think it through thoroughly.
Anyway, thanks for the advice on testosterone boosting foods. I was already eating nuts and taking tribulus during my PCT. Of course, a lot of eggs too.
mazarNever said that mate if anything you have been very sensible about it. Only worry is you might go on trt get a bad amp or whatever and your levels will be 650. There was a lab recently here posted one guy was on 250mg/week iran test e (good pharma supposedly) and his levels where barelly above yours. If you do go on trt make sure you can get it from your doc at least. It is a double edge sword and i can relate almost 100% to you. I am going to wait till 35 (hopefully). Do you use loads of creatine along with the others when you start pct? Thats the only thing that helps me weight wise does almost nothing with composition though
I was taking creatine during the cycle and decided to quit it while I was on PCT (do we still cycle creatine or did it ever fall out of fashion). I'll probably get back on it this week.
As for getting on TRT under medical assistance... wouldn't that make it even more difficult? They'll always try to keep you on normal to low levels, control you, preach you or suspend your medication when you decide to blast... Of course I've been thinking this as well and finally decided that adding doctors to the equation can only make it more complicated. We all run the risk or getting bunk or underdosed gear as things stand right now, don't we? Doesn't matter if you blast and cruise or merely cycle. That's not going to keep me from making a decision (other things could though).
mazarBelieve it or not 579 total test is very decent. Please dont even consider blast and cruising with those levels. What you can do is dose a bit of adex or aromasin to get your e2 well bellow 30s. Estrogen is what makes you loose your gains it is highly suppresive and also it is the no1 reason for mid section fat. Once you lower your e2 your test will rise a bit too you might be in the 700s. I am the same age as you but with half the test you got and i am still not considering trt. If i was you i would stay well away of trt but still control estrogen. Any idea what your shgb is? Your e2 is not normal like it says there it is high just not high enough i guess. 15-30 is where you want to be.
Also these results might be artificial if you just came off your pct. Nolvadex stays for weeks so does clomid id say wait 4 weeks and retest before you add/do anything. Next cycle try an aromasin/clomid pct and you should keep 90% of your gains.
That my estrogen is too high would explain so much right now. Not everything, but at least some things. I'm surprised that my total testosterone is that high to; I (or anyone that knows me) never think of myself as a high testosterone person, but anyway.
Thanks for the advice. I have plenty Adex at home and if estrogen is what's causing all this trouble I know how to take care of it.
mazarI am 100% sure it is the e2 causing you the trouble. Just keep in mind your test at the minute is "artificial" since you were using nolva/clomid (Test boosters) so best retest in a few weeks time and take it from there. This test only shows that you pct is completed. I highly doubt it will drop but you never know it is those weeks after pct that you know how you recover. Also you will rebound the next two weeks and feel/look even worse.
I didn't know Nolva and Clomid were a test booster, aren't they supposed to be estrogen blockers? I thought my natural test levels would be mostly reset 6 weeks after the last shot.
ok brother,i think tread is the man you need here,he is on the money with this type of question...good luck.
Agreed. Tread is great.
ok brother,i think tread is the man you need here,he is on the money with this type of question...good luck.