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giardap
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+ 4 High prolactin and Erectile Dysfunction... a case for fact versus fiction, a very basic lit review and eRoids bloodwork review

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Following some discussion, I thought I would give this topic a thread of it's own
A lot of people worry about erectile dysfunction and get to treating things that may or may not be causing it. Prolactin becomes an obvious candidate when bloodwork is done and elevated levels are spotted.

This is a reasonably short, quick, limited and biased literature review, coupled with an unbiased and brief analysis of some of the bloods I could find here on eroids.com to try to understand whether Prolactin (Prl) is or isn't directly or indirectly causing erectile dysfunction, and whether or not we really need to worry about tumours in cases of elevated prl.

Some of the limitations are my blatant bias against prolactin, toward test/estro and the limited time spent gathering both literature and bloodwork data on eroids,com. I recognise that any pubmed warrior can gather abstracts supporting any point they wish to make, but to counter this have tried to gather only fully accessible articles/blogs/journal reports, and to be unbiased when presenting bloodwork cases/data. Another limitation is our beloved ranges! Ranges for high prl range (pun intended) from a so-called normal of <20ng/ml in the lit reviews, to ~18 according to TRT experts, and ~16 on some bloodtest give or take. I have proceeded on the basis of >20ng/dl being high, with 15-20 being elevated which I think is reasonable. Another limitation is the lack of data in some bloodwork cases, a lack of images of actual lab test results. Another limitation is the lack of literature on AAS users, although this is somewhat countered by the bloods review.

I have included a basic summary at the beginning as this is pretty long, however basic. I would recommend reading through it though as the sources of lit are interesting as are the blood results. It's worth looking at properly and shouldn't take too long.

Hopefully this helps some manage their hormones, and doesn't get me too bashed up by the naysayers! As always I am 100% open to evidence based counter arguments on anything and only find that to support developing best practices/good protocols

High prolactin and Erectile Dysfunction... a case for fact versus fiction, a lit review and eRoids bloodwork review

On physiologically high prolactin (hyperprolactinemia).... hyperprolactinemia is often caused by macroadenomas (10 mm or larger) which are more common in men. A prolactinoma is likely if the prolactin level is greater than 250 ng/mL and a level of 500 ng/mL or greater is diagnostic of a macroprolactinoma. Selected drugs including risperidone and metoclopramide may cause prolactin elevations above 200 ng/mL.
(https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3853872) and (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20039901 and https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11155212)

So mild hyperprolactinemia is usually >20, to 50 ng/mL range and men with hyperprolactinemia may present with erectile dysfunction (although the literature doesnt specify high vs mild)
(http://www.clevelandclinicmeded.com/medicalpubs/diseasemanagement/endocr... AND https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3853872)

But... sexual dysfunction is not caused by high prolactin
(https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18082071)

Conflicting evidence? I don't think so, bear with me... I searched through a boatload of blood reports of high prolactin here on eRoids... I was not selective and just went with what i saw, 1 by 1 and took data that was relevant and included everything for a certain amount pages before I almost went blind! This be them:

  1. 5 months post cycle, following gyno and a letro caber run 30 days post cycle, no mention of pct... Listed high Prl, but is only at upper end of most scales, so elevated. This blood work suggests a 30day post cycle/last inj letro/caber run (no full pct details) for gyno would have lowered prl (16.4 ng/ml from an even higher level (who knows, so must keep digging for on-cycle results). However, it is important to note that letro will have smashed an elevated E2 level which is now mid way on the listed scale. Suggest perhaps it was sky high post cycle, supporting/supported by existence of gyno dev, or he is a huge aromatiser, went zero and rebounded all the way bgack up to midway (less likely on its own given gyno or else both together are plausible). -- (https://www.eroids.com/pics/prolactin-blood-test-feedback)

  2. On blast cycle bloods elevated prl at 17, estro through the roof, libido problems -- (https://www.eroids.com/forum/steroids-qa/pct-anti-estrogens/prolactin-is...)

  3. TRT blast high prl at 18.1, no E2 / test reading, but other forum posts indicate possible serial estrogen offender (disclaimer: speculation on my behalf) -- (https://www.eroids.com/forum/general/general-talk/prolactin-too-high-now...)

  4. High prl, low free and total test with low libido, used clomid to recover and libido sorted -- (https://www.eroids.com/forum/steroids-qa/pct-anti-estrogens/low-testoste....)

  5. On cycle bloods, elevated prl at 20.2, but high test and no libido issues -- (https://www.eroids.com/forum/steroids-qa/pct-anti-estrogens/high-prolact...)

  6. Pre first cycle high prl levels at only 20.9 caused by a medication but no libido issues mentioned -- (https://www.eroids.com/forum/steroids-qa/steroid-cycles/first-cycle-look...)

Conclusion:
We can probably but not definitely rule out tumours as a cause of high prolactin, just not entirely as it is still a consideration in rare cases and we are all about health here on eRoids, so bloodwork is essential to ascertain blood levels and possibly a brain scan for tumours, in the case of levels listed in the lit review.

In all presented eRoids bloodwork cases listed, none had prolactin levels so high they are likely to be tumour related, although some were technically classed as hyperprolactinemia - still, this cannot be completely ignored. In all cases, prolactin was either elevated to upper end of range, or high at literally just over the 20ng/ml upper point. In SOME/the majority of cases there were libido issues but not all - interestingly one case showed high prolactin and no libido issues. In ALL of these cases of elevated or high prl was accompanied by high estro and/or low testo, low fsh/lh, with 1 case sorted by clomid therapy, 1 case high prl pre-cycle. There were 2 cases of high prolactin with high or normal testosterone levels and no libido issues.

It seems to be the case that there is a lot of bloodwork evidence here to prove that high prolactin does not cause ED directly, but perhaps indirectly by lowering testosterone, and that ED can exist in high prl cases primarily where there is low test, high estro and also in cases of hyperprolactinemia, and cases not attibuted to AAS including both pituitary tumours and also in (1 year) off-cycle AAS users and for an unidentifiable cause in a non-AAS user.

This said, the evidence is so limited it is restrictive in helping form the complete picture.

Mrcoolbeans's picture

Crazy to me that guys have erection problems when taking tren or deca etc. If your taking enough test and taking your ai you should be good. I've never had an issue before and Ive ran deca without any ai before when I first started. Worst case for me was when I'm dieting down hard, sometimes my sex drive dips here and there but still get erections easy peasy.

giardap's picture

Well brother tren is a funny one isn't it. Makes me horny as a mo' fo'...
Yeah the hard diet will hit testo hard and can cause ED problems for some, or simply a lower libido for some. I usually diet keto style though which actually bumps test up a bit and energy too, but its all goal dependent really, a BB competitor ain't gonna listen to that advice for obvious reasons!

DfromPhilly's picture

Very interesting read. Thanks for all of your work, boss.

giardap's picture

Cheers fella, hopefully it sheds a little light that might speed up someone's recovery from ED by choosing the right path!

TheFlash85's picture

Good and intresting read mate !

https://www.eroids.com/users/whynot

Follow that link and read his comments.

Go to blue magnify glass and type his username followed by prolactin.

Plus 2 for your contribution...

Thanks.

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giardap's picture

Cheers fella, appreciate it

WhyNot seems to be a really interesting guy. He comes across as being highly articulate too which makes his posts all the more enjoyable. Am looking forward to getting through more now today

thanks again Flash

TheFlash85's picture

Its a topic that has been debated and discussed for many many years.
A definitive answer has never been " found ".
The problem you are having with this "topic" and this particular forum post is that all the " vets" are over it because as you even stated you can find answers anywhere on google etc from each side of the " debate " and the topic most of the time end up being a shit fight full of link after link of " data" from around the internet.
And then the newer guys dont jump in because they see its an endless debate and usually get shut down.
So in saying that, as you have stated around the board- it comes down to the individual.
What works for you.
Sure the drug may not have been invented or used for the intended purpose or what have you but who would of ever thought that female drugs would create the negative feedback loop in men- ie: nolva, clomid etc etc, it had to all start with experimentation at one point.
So with this topic i agree with you on that fact- that its not intended for that purpose ( caber )
Doesnt mean it doesnt work in preventing sides whilst taking 19nors and infact upon my and (our) experiments in real life- superdrol and anadrol.
But that is up to the user/ individual to research and "experiment" with.
I know it works for me,.
And as for crushing estrogen down to zero in the case of gyno lumps, there are counter actions in which we take in bringing that estro back up quickly, which also is part of the savage rebound effect from letro, and the reason why nolva is in there at a particular time overlapped for that rebound affect- so that when that estro climbs back up, which happens with in the two- three week range after the letro cessation, nolva (serm) has occupied the receptors in breast tissue so that nothing more can bind to it, then the recovery process begins from there- because that was why we invented it- soley for ridding gyno lumps- nothing else.

Hope this helps, and hope this clears the matter up for you.
Thanks.

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giardap's picture

Nice post fella,
I agree with everything you are saying. I'm just one of those lads that comes across as a contrarian because I am not an advocate for conventional wisdom and have a healthy disregard for the medical profession too, for what I think are very good reasons. Sceptic is probably the best term to use.

I think that when you look at evidence and real life case studies as well as the real academic studies you can start to form a picture, albeit not definitively. I am not an endo, or TRT/HRT doctor, or what have you, so really, its either dig deep for me, or else I have to listen to internet banter where moreoften than not the same info is shared everywhere... just because.

This post was actually about libido/prolactin and not actually the whole 19nor / prolactin debate. Although the info I have dug up, supported by the case studies could offer support in that debate. But that wasn't what this debate was about, it was from a conversation about libido.

On either topic though, one cliché rings true, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. And this is becoming very visible in the (probably) millions of cases where TRT patients are schooling their General Practitioner doctors and TRT 'experts' by showing what actually works for them.

So it comes back to choice as you say, and if it works, no matter what it is, there is a case for using/being happy etc. But for me, I am always a little more interested interested in the problem, rather than the symptom per sé. We can treat symptoms till the cows come home, but we really truly learn from the problems and their solutions. And again, another cliché.... prevention is better than cure. But don't get me wrong, when I shut myself down for a year from a bad tren run, I was using caber GOOD-O, to help sort myself out after the damage was done. All of these things serve a purpose and I am totally aware of caber's and am an advocate for it when needed.

You are a perfect example of someone that digs and digs until they actually demonstrate through what is essentially a clinical trial; how to achieve real world results with drugs unintended for such use. (your gyno protocol - pure gold). I am a good example of someone who wants to know how to prevent that fucker in the first place and wont listen to naysayers or even advocates until I figure it out.

Hopefully this forum post will help others see how to actually try to find evidence in different forms, but also on the topic or debate of high prolactin causing ED will shed some light on the topic. Some day someone might search the topic and it could help them choose to address the real cause of their ED rather than spend time on something that may or may not be an issue. If it helps one person it is good. And if it adds support to either side of the 19nor debate then it is good.
Lit reviews plus real world case studies are only a good thing when combined. But we need a lot more, a hell of a lot more, and even then, nothing will take away that subjective "it works for me" factor which also needs to be taken into account!

TheFlash85's picture

I want more people researching this whole topic, thats why im bumping, its a head scratcher forsure.
Cheers.

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