+ 6 IGF #'s on K4L Titan A
These are my most recent igf numbers running K4L's Titan A gh. I've been using 10 iu/day for roughly 6 weeks when tested. I was in a calorie surplus of roughly 300-400 calories the whole time. I was doing 1 big shot per day right before bed. I was also running 600 test c, 200 npp and 300 eq during all of this.
I was using another Kits gh prior to this that i used to titrate up the dosage so i could start with the 10 iu when i started my cycle. I know the numbers aren't great. You can look through my past igf 3"s and i'm never an impressive responder numbers wise. I do get the benefits of better sleep, nice hair/skin/nails, faster recovery and this time i actually noticed myself leaning out even while eating in a surplus and gaining weight. These guys are def one of my go to spots if it's something they happen to carry. The timely delivery and customer service is always top notch.
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Same IU usage for one is not same IGF-1 for all because of multiple factors like genetics, age, liver sensitivity, injection protocol, hormone balance, and even test timing. That’s why some people only need 2 iu to hit 250 ng/ml while others hit higher or lower on the same dose.
Your numbers are fine. Right where they should be for you personally based on your previous results from other sources. Trust the results. Leaning out while in a surplus is one of the main short term benefits I notice from GH.
There’s so many possible genetic and environmental reasons for variable systemic/liver IGF1 response to the same GH dose between individuals. I looked stuff up before because I was curious what could possibly cause all of these differences: too high or too low insulin, inflammation, thyroid status, each lab having their own assays for detecting igf1 levels and reference ranges, high or low IGF1 binding proteins (lots of types) and ALS needed to form the IGF1-binding protein complex (genetics), liver and/or kidney issues, GH receptor genetic differences can cause significant differences, and also genetic differences between the downstream factors that lead from GH to IGF1. Liver IGF1 is one finicky bitch. As far as I can see, there’s no direct scientific evidence that GH binding to GH receptor in muscle cells cause the exact same effect as it does in liver cells. I could be way off on that last sentence, but as far as I can find, there are no studies showing that.
I mean that’s usually very low for 10iu, but if your baseline is in the 70’s I guess not. If you’re benefiting noticeably that’s most important
Forget baseline. It in no way predicts one’s response to exogenous GH.
Anecdotally people with lower base lines usually respond lower to exogenous as well. Look at most that pull bad numbers on a hefty amount of growth and then look at their baseline. Hard disagree, sorry, correlation may not be causation but there def seems to be a correlation.
All good bro, we can disagree. I have not observed the same. I’ve seen it all over the place. Low baseline, hyper responder, high baseline and not much elevation. But we so much raw data available on the site. If could just compile it, it would be really cool to see the trends. Im gonna start doing that.
Kind of a 1 off but interesting anecdote. I checked my baseline in my mid 20s and it was 124. barely in normal range, it was very low for my age. But I was a hyper responder to exogenous GH from the start. You can go back in my pictures from 10+ years ago and see all that. I rechecked it recently, being 10+ years older I figured I’d be even lower now. I had been off GH for a few years. But I was at the other extreme, my natural igf-1 levels were now over 300. I was actually above normal range. And I still respond to exogenous GH the same way getting the same 100-120ng/ml of elevation per 1iu of GH.
Compiling the data would be awesome. I really doubt that sort of data is available anywhere else. 1 of the main points of this site is to do testing and provide feedback of both vendors and products. That would be a serious bitch of a task to do though.
Thanks for sharing bro..
Thanks for the bloods. Regarding numbers 200 igf-1 with 10 iu... throw this crap away. It is like pulling 800 ng/dl testosterone running 1g of test a week
The two are not the same. With test were injecting straight testosterone, and for that we kind of know where our serum testosterone levels should be on a given dose. With GH you’re injecting GH, not IGF-1. And each persons liver has a different response to it and produces a different amount of IGF-1. One’s a precursor, the other is the actual hormone we’re measuring. If we were all taking pure IGF-1 we could say your IGF-1 levels should be at X on a given dose. But we’re not, we’re taking a precursor to IGf-1. So I don’t think we can make any any real judgments on the quality of the product based on his IGF-1 levels.
I agree with you that the liver's response is subjective, but on this forum they continue to post these tests with people who use this brand at high doses and have IGF-1 in the normal range, I understand if it were the exception, but the majority... i think it is more a product defect
So long as i'm getting positive benefits from it i don't much care what the actual numbers are. This isn't the first time i've had poor numbers from batches where others put up impressive numbers. Besides, they offer a $150 credit for igf numbers when the test costs sometimes like $60 after a discount. It would be silly not to take the free credit.
Very true you're right about numbers I'm not a fan of k4l but I'm a fan for transparency.
As long as you're waking up fuller and leaning out you know it's g2g plus you got previous bloodwork to prove you don't respond well to growth regarding igf numbers... up the dose if you can tolerate it. I'd maybe consider looking into another gh source to see if you can pull higher numbers on 10ius if you haven't moved away from kits. Its worth a shot bc 10ius and that low of numbers is kinda questionable...
I actually switched to another vendors stuff about a week ago. Same dosing and dosing protocol. I'll be getting another round of mid cycle bloods in about a month. I've seen some people post up crazy high numbers from low doses with what i just started. I'll post up those results when i have them in hand.
Awesome thanks brotha man! Yeah I think I've used pharma a few times in my life I don't see the point if you're running 8ius + of generic the cost would never be there unless you pull on 4 ius of pharm on like 12+ ius of generic.
Now if you're paying these crazy prices for kits coming from China that are being resold from sources then I see the point....
I'd like to try one day. Maybe i can get lucky with a good sale at some point.
Very well, have you ever runned pharma to see with 4 iu what igf-1 do you pull?
I'd like to but that stuff is just too damn expensive. If you know someone who wants to donate to the cause i'll def get bloods done!
And I’m very much not a fan of K4L either.
Yeah bro you know the deal lol
Hahaha
Totally agree, try 10iu from another source. Please.
Did you happen to get serum GH pulled?
No. My last shot was 12 hours prior to bloods being pulled. That's too long for a serum test. Also everyone said to do igf #'s as those couldn't be faked liked serum levels can with certain peptides.
258 IGF-1 after 6 weeks on 10iu/day is honestly underwhelming, brother. Most guys with a natural baseline around 120–150 should be pulling 400+ at half that dose if the raws are solid. Sure, IGF numbers aren’t the only metric … recovery, sleep, fullness all matter … but at the end of the day, bloods don’t lie about conversion.
To me, that screams weak raws or poor bioavailability. With pharma kits(Serostim or Nordi) or top-tier generics, you’d expect way stronger movement, even in “low responders.” That’s why I don’t really buy into “bad responder” excuses … the body might vary, but GH that barely moves IGF at 10iu isn’t something I’d call quality. (There are a lot of variables at play here, including the point JockStrap mentioned in his comment.)
IMHO I’d rather see people save their money than pin water. BTW, thanks for sharing bloods !
Bro, you’re making the same exact argument I was prior to me running keys GH that I was saying must have been low in biological activity lol. I thought we learned our lesson? It is a head scratcher, it’s like how are we getting all these inconsistent IGF-1 tests with GH that’s testing at 96+% purity, accurate or overdosed vials? It’s gotta be the biological activity, which labs like Jano can’t test for. Then I pulled a 500+ IGF-1 on 5ius ed on the same GH many other people were low (and some high) on. So like I said in my post, I really don’t think it’s a biological activity issue, it’s simply an highly individual response to GH. Some people get 15ng/ml per 1iu and others get 150ng/ml per 1iu. OPs results have all been pretty consistent over multiple sources of GH. Chase irons is always a good case study. He was around 200ng/ml on 18ius of fresh serostim from the local phamacy. That’s way more underwhelming than these results. But the dude exploded on that and a cruise level dose of gear.
There’s also a point we’re more doesn’t increase igf-1 by an appreciable amount. I think OPs is probably is around 6ius. That had him in the past around the same place he is now on 10. That’s about the same for me. 6-7 gets me into the high 600s and 10 doesn’t really elevate mine any further.
Last thing I’ll say on this. Ipsen developed increlex for the same issue, but in kids. Normal GH levels, but their livers don’t produce much IGF-1. So it’s a known “problem”. So they skip the liver and give them pure IGF-1. Not sure if a similar thing can develop in adults. But even if I does it does not seem like you need high systemic IGF-1 to get good results from GH.
That's actually what i just switched to. I saw your results and they are damn impressive. If mine are still lackluster i think we can just agree i'm a poor responder testing wise.
If you want to know forsure get 10 days worth of western pharm grade GH, genos, nords or omnitropes. 1 36iu genotropin pen will get you 9 days on 4ius which will be sufficient. But you have to time it to do bloods ideally on day 9, but day 8 or even 7 is fine too. You only need 7 days on it to get the old stuff out and IGF-1 stabilize on the new stuff. I’m betting you’ll be right around where you were on the same dose of generics. Probably a pretty good chance if you ran 10ius of pharma you’d be right around where you are here. @itszoot89 is doing this right now with 6ius. He’s been on the lower end like you “on a few brands of generics so he’s going to see where he’s at on 6ius of pharma grade. We’re assuming he’s not going to be significantly, if any higher on it. But will see.
It’s pretty clear that systemic IGF-1 levels don’t determine one’s response to GH.
Def something to look into once i'm back to just trt and only running 2-4 iu.
Exactly bro you can literally YouTube any well known person on YouTube that knows about gear and bloodwork I'll list a few names for examples so he can look them up.
Kurt Evan's, chase irons, Dr Todd Lee, vigorous Steve, nyle Nayga
itszoot89To be fair, that’s nearly a 400% jump.
I get your point though on that high of a dose and the numbers, and you’ve probably seen my bloodwork posts.
Irongame and I are running a small experiment—my labs look a lot like black90tsi’s on ~6 IU.
I’m currently on 6 IU pharma-grade, and we’re hoping this helps nail down how conversion rates vary by person.
I think this can tie in to how people convert test in a way. I naturally have super low SHGB (8-15) and can pull 2200 free test from a 250-350 mg dose weekly. This must be the same concept on how people react to HgH (all hypothetical)
I get your point here. But this isn't the only gh i've tested. It's not even the only vendor i've tested stuff from. My baseline was 74 which is in the bottom 10% of the range for guys my age. This is the second highest reading i've ever had. None of the tests i've ever done have been over the reference range. I get my numbers aren't impressive. But i do notice way faster recovery, better sleep and my hair and nails def grow faster. In about a month i'll be testing another vendors stuff at the same dose.
This is the first time i've done this large an amount of gh. I wanted give it a solid go and see what happened. If the better recovery and staying the same leaness while putting on more size is what i get i'm ok with tha. IDK if i'll use such a high dose again in the future. But i'm going to continue it for the next 6 weeks until i'm done cycling. At which point i'll drop back down to 2-3 along side my regular trt. Do you agree that such a large dose needs to be split? I have conflicting info on that. Some say it doesn't matter and others say it's stupid to not split it up. Other than trying each way and seeing my outcome IDK how else to figure it out.
10iu isnt supposed to ever be 1 big shot. Before bed will also give you false reading on blood test. Pin and 3 HOURS later blood draw.
Hgh at that level is multi pins.....and body cant use that much alone. Wasted cash.
My understanding is the pin and wait 3 hours is for total gh levels in the blood not igf levels. I've tried splitting doses and doing 1 giant shot and never noticed a difference in my igf numbers even at the same dosing.
Igf1 at 3hrs.
Hgh test can be any of the peptides that raise the hgh numbers. If you want gh numbers then peptides are cheap. Faked hgh back in the day gave great gh scores but nothing for igf1. Igf1 is the goal.
So are you even testing properly?? My tests are posted and higher with much less. If you truely dont respond.....then dont waste your money. @Black90tsi
nothing like your guts growin as a side effect
Yes totally agree. Increased igf-1 is the true answer
You're the only person who has ever said to follow the same protocol for igf numbers as you should for gh serum levels. Even vendors have told me what i'm doing is fine. If you have some links where i can read more on this i'd be glad to.
If you read any of the info posted here on eroids, thetes a dozen years worth of science backed info.
This is one of the places i've been getting my info from. Even in this thread others are saying i'm doing it correctly. I'm not saying you're wrong. I just haven't come across any info to point in the same direction yet.
Youre understanding is correct, that’s for GH serum testing. Serum GH levels peak approx 3hrs post IM injection. And 4-5hrs after sub Q. IGF-1 levels don’t peak at 3hrs. It’s a sustained elevation after you’ve been on it for a week with mild fluctuation during the day.
While you likely aren’t getting max IGF-1 production with 1 10iu shot a day, I don’t think you’d be a ton higher if you were splitting it. And on a bulking diet high in carbs 1 big shot at night is best for minimizing insulin resistance and such. And it seems to be the best play when growth is what you’re after,
Thanks for testing! You said your IGF-1 scores have never been good, do you know what your baseline was? Curious
74
Mine was lower and 3iu puts me over 300.
So about a 3.5x increase from baseline, nice that puts things into perspective.
anvilThanks for testing. Appreciate you.
They are great love the titan. How is your glucose and A1C on ten IU? Running 5 of that stuff.
anvilAre you being serious? They are in reference range on 10ius. I think you should read this. IGF scores are not the only factor in determining the effectiveness of GH but at the prices you guys pay for Cats 4less you shouldn't be getting anything less the best the world has to offer.
ChaseIrons is on the record sharing a sub 200 ng IGF-1 reading on over 15 IU daily of pharmaceutical grade growth hormone. It's worth noting that you can have a low serum IGF-1 reading and simultaneously have a phenomenal response to the positive effects of growth hormone. Conversely, you can have a great serum reading and get jack shit out of it.
That all being said, this individual (OP) said his baseline IGF-1 was 74, which puts things into perspective.
Exactly. Kurt Havens and John Jewett had a good podcast discussing GH. The testing isnt the end all be all. I think Chase was using 18iu of serostim per day. My labs didnt show huge igf readings either, but I noticed it in the way I looked and felt. There are a lot of other factors that can impact the readings.