+ 3 fuck!!
god dammit these are incredibly disappointing results and very discouraging ... i need some serious advice and help as to what i should do next!
i was planning on starting my next cycle THIS friday, however with #s this fuckim popped thats not really an option at this pt in time. i know the pics are hard to see and i apologize for that, my camera blows but my serum test is at a whopping 279 ng/dl, lh is high at 10.3 even tho i finished pct over 3 months ago, and fsh is at 9.4. estradiol is only 10.8 but i figure thats because my test is so low its not convertng much.
i feel like because my LH is so high im still slowly but surely coming back and its a good sign, with low lh and test i wouldve prob ended up on trt if a 2nd aggressive pct didnt work. 279 is really fuckin low tho and i can def feel the effects on my energy thruout the day, strength in the gym, and def sex drive.
so my question to you brothers is wtf should i do? just wait it out and test again in about 8 more weeks or implement a 2nd pct? original was torem at 90/60/60/30 and standard clomid dosing, cycle was test e 600mg wk and EQ 600mg wk. was on for almost 5 months and finished pct first week of july.
on another note, this is what happens when you cycle back to back! i only took 2 weeks off after completing pct my 1st cycle and went right back on for damn near 5 months, and as a result have damn near put myself on trt luke a fuckin idiot that doesnt listen!
take it easy on me guys, seeing these results already ruined my day as it is
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QtripsAlso buddy, I'd get your LH and FSH run again, just to make sure the labs are correct. Long shot, but a chance. Even though you will probably be on T for life, adding HCG in can still be good as it'll activate the P450 side chain, which produces preg which then transfers downstream into other hormones.
QtripsAre your balls still in a shrunken state, or are they full size? Even if just a little shrunken, knowing this will help.
AssUhl100mcg shot of Triptorelin could be a miracle for your exact situation bro....something to seriously consider my friend. You would be amazed within a week you will start to feel like a new man again. It saved me rapidly when i almost shut myself down exactly like you. Got it from a hormone specialist i saw.
QtripsHe isn't shut down. His LH and FSH are high. He's producing the signals, his balls just aren't responding. Giving more signals for FSH and LH could be detrimental, and certainly won't do a thing. High FSH and LH are different from low LH and FSH. From the labs, he may be shut down for good.
QtripsHate to break this to you, but having high FSH and LH with low test means you could be on your way to becoming primary hypo-gonadal, meaning your balls are losing function. Your balls are getting the signals from your pituitary to produce T, but the balls can't cope and do it, therefor the FSH and LH is just piling up and your pituitary keeps sending more signals in the hope that your balls will awaken. This is a tricky situation, and let's not assume the worst just yet.
In my opinion, you're not full blown primary hypo-gonadal just yet, but you're more than halfway there. Be very careful in what you take/inject, and if I were you I'd get an opinion from a TOP anti-aging doc/trt specialist. You may wind up being on T for the rest of your life, but it's really not that bad.
BigBmajIf you want a sex drive with low test try phenibut and cialis. My test should be coming down these days and my libido is out of control high. Just as much as when I was taking 1000 mg of test a week.
edit
What about a small dose of triptorelin?
AnonStrictly speaking on terms of the hormones I think you are on the right path. Running consecutive cycles with no break will without question shut u down and nearly cause it to be permanent. What should give u hope is the LH and FSH are sky high. That is really the sign that says to me that you have not caused yourself to be hypogonadism. I am diagnosed hypogonadism. My LH is always nothing and my FSH is just as bad. I agree that what you need is time and time alone. Take a long break brother. But I wouldn't feel if I were you that you have hypogonadism based on these labs. If ur LH and FSH were low i'd say you should be concerned.
yeah thats more or less the same conclusion i came to, im glad to see the same ideas and opinions coming from you guys. ive been off for 4 months so naturally im ready as fuck to get back on, but i abused that 'privelage' last time around so i gotta wait a whole hell of a lot longer and it sucks ...
this is some real shit right here, its not simply about being back on but just not feeling shitty all around like i do now. this transition period of slowly but surely coming back sucks dirty ballsack bros - my wife ia smoking hot and the foundation of our what i considered to be a healthy and trustng relationship has always been sex.
and since week 3 of pct (ended 4 months ago) ive had little to no sex drive, and that itself eventually caused a lot of tension and even distrust in our marriage which we still obvi are dealing with. i dunno man, it makes me feel less of a man for not religiously laying it down like ive always done until coming off, and im not trying to justify or get anyone to cosign some bullshit ... rather just venting the reasoning which has been racing through my head the last couple days ... reasoning to just say fuck it and self diagnose trt.
worst part is i know this is stupid, whether my wife and i ever plan on havng another child or not, especially to top that off i dont have insurance so couldnt do it the right way. i know this is not the way to go, but like i said the transition process of recovering isnt easy. my sex life is weak as hell, i suck at work compared to what im fully capable of because im tired as shit all the time, i fatigue much easier with any and every physical activity, and i even cant focus or be as attentive as i usually am ... its like my heads foggy, dull and not as alert.
im all over the place in that, wasnt my intention to write most of that when i started, and i really dont want anyone to cosign some bullshit thats not what im looking for by saying all that. i guess im just trying to insure some kind of accountability for myself ... not feeling like this anymore is incredibly appealing, but i know theres always a chance i might regret it one day
AnonMike what you're going through is completely understandable and completely normal. I know the feeling all to well. LevelUp had a great idea of utilizing HGH. A small therapeutic dose of 2iu will help bring your HPTA into homeostasis. Is this your first set of labs since u finished pct? I really think u should run the HGH low dose and retest in a month. Hopefully by then u see a rise in total test levels. Even a small rise should alleviate the stress. Also if its the mental aspect of feeling low cuz ur not on cycle you might consider running another peptide along with the HGH. There's a few choices that would have to be made depending on the goals for ur progression. Igf1-lr3 is good for some mass gains and synergy with the HGH. Some GHRP-6 is really good for appetite and well being. A huge appetite always makes me naturally associate it with being "ON". In the meantime there's some things you can do for libido. Horny Goat Weed is a good natural choice. But honestly brother Cialis/Viagara works. Don't feel ashamed or bashful. That shit is rocket fuel and mix it with a glass or two of some wine/spirits with the woman does the trick. Talk about this with her. Ask her to support you and to refrain from judging u. Be open and the rest will follow. I'm sure there's other things that can increase libido. My sister practices homeopathic therapies. Her children have been raised without knowing western medicine. I'll ask her for some natural remedies for libido and test levels.
If all the waiting passes and your levels are still off we gotta do two things. We run another comprehensive PCT and more labs. Then if that doesn't work we bite the bullet and run a TRT dose. Without insurance you can't do this through a Dr. And I hesitate even now self diagnosing and self medicating. It's not my style. But seeing the struggle in your words brother are not going unnoticed and ignored by me. I relate to it. I am a friend and will help you in anyway I can whether it's with advice or helping find answers or helping you get set up with a friendly Src. Whatever I have at my disposal brother. It's yours.
thanks carlos, i really mean that man ...
as far as a small dose of hgh, im all for it but honestly am not sure i can work that into the budget right now. im going to be spending a good amnt of $ (based on my income) on blood testing plus trying to go the natural 'test booster' route first as bluebull suggests, and with christmas comng and 2 little ass kids living basically paycheck to paycheck, i dont think i can afford hgh right now.
i do have some cialis and have decided to start takng one every 3 days instead of once every couple weeks, and i'll be investing into some a that horny goat weed you suggest too. i really do think that so long as i can at least satisfy the shit outta my wife, the other symptoms of low test i can sack up and deal with until i get better. the confidence and satisfaction that comes with keeping her sexually happy as fuck should be enough to hold me over until full function comes back, and i really do believe it will especially with the guidance and advice ive gotten from you guys.
thanks again carlos, your help and kind words mean an awful lot to me, youre a really good dude
I actually have secondary hypo so my test levels are low but I still have high Lh fsh due to drug abuse and being overweight. The way it was explained to me basically is that my testes function but my problem is in hypothalamus?....I couldnt tell you exactly how. But according to the doc a lot of people can recover as long as the drug abuse wasn't long term like mine...whoops. So I fully agree with you that he needs time an possibly a lot of it for his hpta to recover and he should be fine
AnonWow brother that's some shit. It's crazy how so many different variations of how and why a lot of us have low test. Just speaking from my personal experience I honestly can't say I've ever seen my LH on a lab test say anything other than <0.1 and FSH <0.2
Fucking depressing homie. But thank god for TRT and Eroids:) if I ever saw his LH and FSH numbers I'd probably break dance and then go buy a lotto ticket or hit the casino:)
Strange man I know, I got my own bloodwork at first and saw that and in like what's going on... from a littke research it is way more rare to have my fucked up levels...but you're right, thank god for trt, for me there are way more depressing things
bet theres all kinds of dudes on here thatd trade #s like mine for script of that watson cyp in a heartbeat haha
I STARTED with my serum test that low bro. And that was from never touching gear. Embrace it and up the dose
I certainly would try and hpta restart before I would suggest anyone to hop on trt...it's not a decision that should be taken lightly. I see you are 23 and decided to go that route, it your decision but not everyone else's. so unless you have a suggestion that is going to help the op recover, let's refrain from statements like "up the dose" and "embrace it". furthermore, that shouldn't be your mentality until you have a little experience under your belt
RustyhookerHe's seeking recovery. Not more gear. Carlos up above is correct.
beyondimports1000iu eod for two weeks then run Nolva and torem for 6 weeks. 120/90/60/60/60/60 and 60/60/40/40/20/20
oldhead, carlosdanger, dossier where you guys at?! i need you guys man!
i feel like my BUN and BUN/creatine levels are much higher than im used to seeing in other ppls tests, what does that even mean and what can i do to fix it?
By product of protein metabolism...actually quite common for a bb diet bc of excess protein consumption...keep sinking plenty of water...if you were a bit dehydrated at the time of the test you will end up with a higher concentration as well
oh okay, thanks for the insight. you mentioned earlier a 2nd pct with an hcg blast ... isnt the whole pt of pct to spike lh and fsh therefore raising test levels? if my lh and fsh are already high, whats the pt of raising them via serms? also, if hcg mimics lh in us, and mines clearly alrdy pumpin, why would i bother with hcg anyways? im not tryin to be a pain in the ass or arguementative brother, just trying to better understand and i thank you for your help
Hcg is commonly used in trt patients to keep testicular function. A blast can effectively restart function which in turn raises test levels. It's always a faster recovery when your test levels aren't in the shitter to begin with. After the blast clomid is introduced for the production of fsh and Lh which will cause a release of more testosterone assuming that you have regained normal function. I am not particularly well versed in hypogonadism but I believe the reason for high levels of of fsh and Lh in your case is that there is a feedback mechanism that is acting based on your low test levels, your body sees that it has less than optimal test levels so it is basically telling itself to produce more fsh and Lh bc it knows that they are responsible for the production/release of testosterone. Bc you aren't under full function right now the hormone is unable to act on the receptor and levels of the hormones build
what do you recommened for a blast like this? 250iu ED for 1 week? 2 weeks? and how lokg after my last hcg pin would i want to introduce the clomid? 3 days? lastly, should i dose the clomid as usual 100/100/50/50? im guessing nolvadex wouldnt really be necessary due to the fact im not fresh off cycle and therefore not flooded with high test levels convertng to estro, but i have heard many times of the synergy between the 2 however ive never necessarily seen it proven ... once again i really appreciate all the help yo, i was kinda freakin out this morning when i first saw the results.
What levelup is telling you is what Dr Bill Scally recommends with his patients. You start off with hcg to determine here's what he has to say about it so you understand the why:"The first phase of the HPTA protocol examines the functionality of the testicles by the direct action of hCG. hCG raises sex hormone levels directly through the stimulation of testis and secondarily decreases the production and level of the gonadotropin LH. The increase in serum testosterone with the hCG stimulation is useful in determining whether any primary testicular dysfunction is present.
This initial value is a measure of the ability of the testicles to respond to stimulation from the hCG. Demonstration of HPTA functionality is by an adequate response of the testicles to raise the serum level of T well into the normal range. If this is observed the hCG is discontinued. The failure of the testes to respond to an hCG challenge is indicative of primary testicular failure.
In the simplest terms, the first half of the protocol is determine testicular production and reserve by direct stimulation with hCG. If one is unable to obtain adequate (normal) levels successfully to the first half there is little cause or reason to proceed to the second half.
The second phase of the HPTA protocol, clomiphene and tamoxifen, examines the ability of the hypothalamo-pituitary to respond to stimulation by producing LH levels within the normal reference range.
Clomiphene is a mixed agonist/antagonist. This is due o the fact that clomiphene is composed of two isomers: enclomiphene (trans-clomiphene) and zuclomiphene (cis-clomiphene). Enclomiphene is an estradiol receptor antagonist. Zuclomiphene is an estradiol receptor agonist. In all likelihood, the net antagonist effect might be due to the composition being 70% trans (enclomiphene) and 30% cis (zuclomiphene). Tamoxifen is more of a strict antiestrogen, decreases the effect of estrogen in the body, and potentiates the action of clomiphene. This combination came about after 100s of clinical experience.
Tamoxifen and clomiphene citrate compete with estrogen for estrogen receptor binding sites, thus eliminating excess estrogen circulation at the level of the hypothalamus and pituitary allowing gonadotropin production to resume. Administration produces an elevation of LH and secondarily gonadal sex hormones. The administration leads to an appropriate rise in the levels of LH, suggesting that the negative feedback control on the hypothalamus is intact and that the storage and release of gonadotropins by the pituitary is normal. If there was a successful stimulation of testicular T levels by hCG but an inadequate or no response in LH production than the patient has hypogonadotropic, secondary, hypogonadism.
In the simplest terms, the second half of the protocol is to determine hypothalamo-pituitary production and reserve with clomiphene and tamoxifen. The physiological type of hypogonadism, hypogonadotropic or secondary, is characterized by abnormal low or low normal gonadotropin (LH) production in response to clomiphene citrate and tamoxifen. In the functional type of hypogonadism, the ability to stimulate is present.
Further, in my experience, an inadequate gonadotropin response is not reason for giving up on HPTA restoration. As I have said, discontinuing on a 12-18 month basis is still advocated. I have had success by this regimen.
very through and detailed explanation which surprisingly made sense to me without having to read it a couple times lol, wish i could +1 ya for it.
+2 on your other thread. I appreciate the in depth explanation....not to jack his thread but how to I continue to have low t levels but normal to high Lh and fsh...was I misdiagnosed and have primary failure?
Could be levelup but the only way to know is to do the HCG protocol. You would 1st blood test to see your base then start HCG protocol and blood test again. If testosterone serum does not elevate then according to Dr Scally it is primary.
When we stay jacked for long periods of time steroid use can result in testicular atrophy. Testicular atrophy is a condition in which a man’s testicles shrink.The testicles are made up mostly of germ cells, which are responsible for producing sperm , and Leydig cells, which produce the male sex hormone testosterone. Testicular atrophy may negatively impact both of these types of cells. When this happens even though your body is signaling with high LH and FSH there is a disconnect and nothing happens as the Leydig cells which produce natural testosterone are affected. This shrinkage in size may be accompanied by loss of function. Will they come back? It's possible but it is a very slow process and takes a long time. That is why some guys use doses of HCG while on cycle to keep the testes from shrinking to begin with. Here's Dr Scally's protcol and study. The only thing that has change since this was written is that 2500iu eod has changed to 2000 iu eod.
http://www.medibolics.com/ScallyVergelAstractHPGA.pdf
Beyondimports has got you up above...but I thing going 500iu Ed is better than eod bc if I remember right your body won't be able to utilize it all...and of course at that rate it would be wise to have ai on hand
If this doesn't work I recommend you hit up tread regarding the use of hgh for stabilizing the hpta
UFOYea 279 at 28 is pretty low brother. If I were in your shoes(and I have a strong feeling I will be rather soon when I get my bloods back) I would def go for another PCT WITH a HCG blast included. There will be no going back if you hop right on another cycle this soon, you just have not given your body enough time to recoop, if it still has the ability to. I would jump over to the PCT forum section. There are a few serious PCTs for this exact purpose written up by some very knowledgeable people on the subject.
Well high Lh levels with low t levels can be a sign of hypogonadism...best thing to do would probably be a second pct with an hcg blast beforehand. Tread also wrote a great article on using gh to reset the hpta so that is also an option as well
Just go BALLS OUT (literally) and jump on your next cycle. lmaoo.... Jk jk dont listen to me. ;)