Free ParaPharma GH Kit
Some may know I had a whole host of problems with my one promos order - not Freaks fault and he went out of his way to fix the issues and while it took time he is a man of his word and everything came in the end.
Imagine my surprise when this arrived after Freak reached out and said he was going to send me one of these kits to try as he wanted to make up for the issues. Well he didn’t have to as far as I was concerned it was all good and sorted and I was very grateful and happy running the free cycle. Nevertheless I gracefully accepted the free kit as I was running 8iu GH ED (different lab) as per of the cycle.
So I switched to this and while I never did blood work - I’ve done so much testing on GH this year and given how costly this is in the UK my budget is blown for that and I have to focus on basic blood work right now I am happy to report I noticed no change in effect or sides moving to the ParaPharma. It all look very professional too and so for what it’s worth and given I believe I know my GH pretty well I was very happy. I plan on ordering a kit at some point in the next few months when I’m back to a standard 4iu per day for me and running an IGF-1 Test to get a proper comparison.
Thanks Freak for the the awesome gift.
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Nice 1!!!
Thank you for writing all of ths brother. Glad we came through with the promo and this one for you... The typoe of person you are, we definitely had a pleasure sending this to you. Appreciate everything you have done and the good word you put out for us too... And happy to know you're enjoying the Paratropin. Para Pharma just came through again
You're welcome mate, enjoy. Cheers!
Generous gift ...freak is a good guy
Looking forward to seeing lab results especially igf-1
never tried paratrooper, but assume it is good as their other gear, just litlle pricy
enjoy mate
nice enjoy, used this one too, good product
Awesome gift!
Honestly, with nonpharma GH products I am always very scared that we are sold bovine GH or other versions of the peptide that do show up on GH blood tests and also agonize GHR and thus result in proper IGF1 elevation, but over time might prompt antibody production against certain epitopes of the foreign peptide that perhaps crossreact then also with our own endogenous hGH which would result in progressive and partial loss of activity over years requiring everhigher exogenous dosages to maintain effect. For me it is just not worth the risk, even if it were a just 5% risk I would not take the gamble.
I'd like to see some links or other info to confirm that this could be an issue, or something we should even be concerned with.
see my response below. I am merely speculating
This is for you n Dacky::
Hgh : molecular mass 22,125 Da
Bgh. : molecular mass 12,454 Da
Both have a different structure also
When you do a simple GH Blood Serum (LC/MS) ....if it was BGH it would not elevate since the test is reading 22k + (22,125 Da) vs BGH molecular mass (12K +) 12,454 Da
https://www.uniprot.org/uniprot/Q9N265
Or < 22k (rBGH)
Now ask me about Chinese HGH 4-5 years ago and I’d say it was all poison ....lol......but in recent years it seems legit rHGH is more available via black market or legit China Pharma
In the past there were drug patents, technology, drug proprietary with rHGH.....China is notorious for technology theft....so now China BioPharms are producing real rHGH easily available on the international black market
I personally still stick with Pharma/China Pharma tho
The links you provided shows:
Mass (Da):21,816
Mass (Da):24,558
These are not the same as rHGH
Hgh and Bgh are not the same
LC/MS doesn’t read “Almost”
21,816 and 22,125 are not the same (bio identical)
Or am I missing something ?
With all the recent random testing showing rHGH......
I haven’t seen one result for BGH ( any form of it)
Now 4-5 years ago maybe
Dr Woo (ANGUS) testing showed some some samples had weird molecular weight (mass)
Random color top testing
Ole Gfit prolly pinned some bad stuff
I don’t use the black market “generic” stuff
But there’s some legit ones out there
Yes HPLC and def MS could spot the difference, you are certainly right in that.
I was purely speculating about the bovine/porcine forms and have no evidence whatsoever so you can rightly neglect that if you want.
And there likely ARE some legit ones out there (at least they appear and disappear again and perhaps they are real pharm grade stuff sold on the the black market or perhaps even high quality UGL have been popping up within the last few years), but even if these are pure (regardless whether pharma or pharma-quality-UGL) there are likely differences between batches (not with pharm grade of the same brand) and 100% differences between brands (again regardless whether pharm grade or quality approaching pharm grade) and this is (at least theoretically) a problem as otherwise the medical community would not warn patients against changing brands, and this they do.
You could run 10y genotropin, then just 2 months some UGL and then change bak to pharm grade for the rest of your life, but doing this the possibility/risk of antibody development against GH is present and the more often you do this the linearly higher this risk gets.
Go ahead and ask someone with credentials and someone you trust about this
You were looking at the wrong page. The page you looked at was that of a FRAGMENT of the molecule (it says on the left). And no, the structure is ALMOST identical. AS mutations with the same properties do not cause the structure to change much, esp. if they are in a-helix or b-sheet regions so a protein with about 60% AS identity often shares ALMOST the exact same structure.
the following for the complete sequence (right after gene expression)
https://www.uniprot.org/uniprot/B0FPG6
Before being excreted into the blood stream, this protein is then postranslationally processed into the following protein (the one they also synthesize recombinantly):
https://www.uniprot.org/uniprot/A0A089P8S5
And this protein has a molecular mass of 22kD, almost the same as recombinant human GH and porcine GH. Porcine GH is even closer to hGH than bovine GH, and both proteins are available in LARGE quantities and cheaply to the agricultural industry, which would be quite easy to repackage and sell vs. having the millions of dollars, knowledge and proper lab equipment needed to synthesize rHGH (I am NOT saying that for some cases this might not be the case). I am just saying that if we got porcine or bovine GH neither blood tests nor (cheap) lab analyses could tell the difference. But our immune system can.
But lets fucking stop worrying about human vs. bovine vs. porcine. The point I am trying to make is this: introducing any even slightly foreign protein into the body (whether bovine or porcine or unpure human or even pure human with significantly different postranslational modification) will over time result in the production of antibodies. This is a given and if one has even a slight understanding of immunology this is a no-brainer (no offense). But, how relevant these antibodies are is debatable, but usually they result in a reduction of efficacy of both the foreign molecule and also the endogenous analogue, which is accompanied with a reduction in efficacy for both (widely reported in the literature for GH, HcG, prolactin, FSH and even insulin). In worse cases they result in immune reactions (e.g. injection site welts) which get worse over time (and no, lowlevel immune reactions are happening all over the body and not just the injection site). But even if it was real hGH and even if it was as pure as pharma grade (although to a smaller extent), upon changing brands (which most BBers do quite frequently -let alone just using pharm grade) there is still a pretty strong risk (actually a risk bordering on certainty) of antibody development. And after years of using many different kinds of brands (esp. UGL stuff - and even the good pure UGL stuff goes bad over time as we have seen countless times basically forcing you to change brands repeatedly) or even slight differences in different batches of the same UGL brand, the persons titers against GH would with almost 100% certainty be quite high and biochemically easily be measurable, though again the CLINICAL consequences are debatable and in many mild cases subjectively not noticeable (perhaps a reduction in an IGF-1 baseline test at most requiring the person to stay on exogenous GH forever). Look at my respone about immunity below to DfromPhilly.
I know this is not what you guys want to hear/read but science doesn´t really care about our believes and biases (no offense). Ask any knowledgable doctor (perhaps even your endocrinologist) and he will tell you the exact same thing. For me, saving these couple hundert/thousands of bucks is just not worth it and is actually imho a little like playing with fire. These are not steroids we are messing with but PROTEIN hormones.
And we should move our discussion to some other page.
It doesn’t matter if the molecules are ALMOST identical or have ALMOST the same molecular weight the FACT remains that LC/MS testing WILL distinguish the difference. I think you hopefully acknowledge this now as we would have seen bovine or porcine rGH popping up in some of the random testing we’ve been doing by now and well we haven’t.
Seems you’ve got this point as you’ve now decided to take this argument in a different direction around the dangers (possibly highly significant from the language you’re using) of antibody production as a result of changing brands of GH which of course those of us using PEDs do regularly. I know that’s whah you endocrinologist told you but I haven’t seen you post any studies showing this to be a real risk and if real what are we talking here in population sizes for rHGH (I’m not talking insulin, rFSH, HCG or any other protein peptide for that matter). I want to see the data here. My feeling is if this was a real risk you would see black box warning all over these products for this. Insulin using diabetic patients are switched types of insulin relatively often to no significant antibody producing effect rendering them unresponsive to insulin and seem well dead. I asked around a few of my type 1 and 2 friends who use insulin and all have told me they’ve switched brands/types of insulin a number of times over the years sans none - not one - had heard this warning.
And lastly on that note antibody reactions to proteins are well as common as it being a rainy day at least somewhere in the world today. For some these are life threatening (sever peanut allergies for example) and for others a major nuisance but not life threatening (i.e, hay fever to grass pollens) so let’s use a little perspective when thinking about the answer here.
And yes I completely agree you should move this to another forum and keep plugging away there. I can’t help but feeling your on a little bit of a mission to find validation for a personal and somewhat paranoid position you’ve taken. I know it means nothing but you would think with all the users here of GH and on other boards that if anyone has experienced the types of issues you’re taking anoint (bovine/porcine GH v HGH or the now more general (switch brands at your peril) issues that someone would have experienced an issues and we would have heard about it.
Allergies are a whole different thing.
Also as many substances all of us are taking and as these issues develop over YEARS and also due to graduality of all this insidiously occurring we wouldn't really notice (e.g. a 30% reduction of GH efficiency or IGF1 levels) and as we are changing countless variables all the time we likely wouldn't notice a (in the short term likely mild) issue that would just really manifest itself perhaps years down the line, but even then we would notice (e.g. a 30% reduction of IGF1 effects after stopping exogenous GH).
And a quick pubmed search should clear you in terms of antibodies against insulin upon changing brands. As to GH I don't think there is any data.
Here a good read for you and data for tons of proteins all having that happening and certainly not different for Gh (likely esp. of dubious origin):
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4848426/
also I see that my input here is not appreciated as you guys are all using UGL GH (as I did in the past) and thus biasedly just hear what you want to hear neglecting everythig that would indicate perhaps you should better be cery cautious. I said what I wanted to say and you can do with that what you want. I am out. Have a great day Dacky.
No you’re wrong. It’s just the wrong place for the debate as I’ve told you time and time again. I’ve already asked Pale and Greg if they can move this topic to the GH forum and lock this one to further comments.
Have you ever seen proof of BGH being sold as HGH? Or is this just pure paranoia?
Honestly this is just pure paranoia. All I know is that in mice bGH and hGH both and equally increase IGF1.
And bovine GH is manufactured in very large quantities in Asia and the US whereas hGH is much more regulated and much more expensive. So I figured that it would be very easy for someone to sell us bGH which would both show up on blood tests as GH (as the peptited is pretty well conserved among mammals and blood tests do not differentiate and why would/should they?) and in an IGF1 elevation.
I have no evidence whatsoever, other than considering the price of UGL GH and the fact that it does properly elevate both GH and IGF1, but weirdly countless people (even myself) do not feel nearly as well on them despite similar blood values -the reason why this might be occurring is beyond me but perhaps that the GH we are sold does not properly act on GHR in the human brain (esp. the monoaminergic nuclei which all express GHR in very high densities (dopamine, noradrenaline, serotonin)).
BUT AGAIN THIS IS PURE CONJECTURE. All I am saying is that even if there WERE a 5% risk of this or something similar being the case, I would not take chances.
Fair enough. My thought is that technology evolves and as it does things become cheaper/more obtainable. Remember what a 55” tv cost in the early 90s? Or even LED TVs just 8 years ago? I just got a 55” LED smart TV for $400. From Samsung (not some cheap brand).
I think back 5-10 years ago or more, there was a better chance people were pulling more shady shit. But now that there’s literally universities teaming up with biotech companies to make the shit, and the tech has gotten cheaper, we have much better odds.
As you know, Pharma will never drop the prices. Doesn’t mean it’s not costing them less to produce.
Just like you said, this is pure conjecture (except for the universities & biotech companies thing anyway), but i believe it’s better than you think of you’re selective. Simec knows the difference between hgh and bgh, and I haven’t seen a good brand tested come up as anything but 191aa rHGH.
But you are absolutely right. There is always a small chance (as with the other PEDs we take) that it’s not exactly what we think it is. Why would Hgh be any different. That’s a very fair point.
You sir are absolutely correct and IN THEORY I do agree with everything you said...but 2 caveats:
1) how do you explain the difference in the vague feeling of wellbeing (of course I haven´t tested all UGL brands myself but for NONE I have tried I had this pretty distinct wellbeing I get from pharma GH and many people report the same thing -basically almost everybody I know and have read about says there is a night and day difference. In case you are running any UGL GH and have never tried real pharma GH I just challenge you to buy some humatrope or genotropin and run it. You will see what I mean. Of course during this time you need to keep all other variables (e.g. steroid dosages) constant.). This point alone is what makes all the difference for me. I know "going by feels" is vastly unreliable because there are just too many external variables that can and do change all the time -let alone all the internal inherent biases (e.g. confirmation bias, justification of effort) we humans tend to fall victim to, but at least for me: as to all the UGL GH I have tried there is an unequivocal difference in how I feel subjectively. Keep in mind this just applies to me and I am just making assumptions based on that.
2) guess what: bGH is also 191aa.
Of course this doesn´t mean that there are or will never be some new UGL that do sell the proper and pure stuff indeed as technology is and will be getting better as you said and perhaps this might be a thing in the future perhaps.
Still in general I believe that almost all if not all UGL GH products that are currently sold are not what they claim to be -despite showing up on blood tests as GH and proper elevation in IGF1 and even testing for 191aa (think about the fact that some of the cheapest and shadiest "insert-color"-tops came back at extraordinary levels (perhaps also including GH-secretagoeges in addition). What I mean is this: as a general rule of thumb for pretty much everything having to do with money, if something is almost too good to be true pricewise there is something wrong with it (of course there are exceptions).
And pharma GH do drop their prices depending on the country. In Turkey you get the original genotropin 36iu for about 100 USD...but 100iu of proper pharma grade GH for the same price?? I just don´t buy it. But I would love for you to prove me wrong as that would save me a shitton of money as I plan on running an antiaging dose of 1.5-2iu for the rest of my life.
If I remember correctly they don’t just test for 191aa GH, they test for 191AA HGH. It would be a pretty big deal if one came out as 191aa BGH. But most aren’t tested by simec so I’m not saying there aren’t some out there that aren’t 191AA HGH. But there are for sure quality genetics out there, just like there are quality generic meds that are much cheaper for the same thing.
I’ve only ran Jin’s as far as Pharma goes and I didn’t notice a difference. You could argue they were fake, but they verified and were from an extremely reliable source, and you could make the same argument about any other Pharma brand.
I have only tried 3 other brands and they were all UGL. You can see what they are in my reviews, but the last two I tried both start with Q and I felt zero difference between the jins and them. Which is why I’ve been sticking with the Qs.
At the end of the day I’m not trying to argue with you and I don’t care what you use. I was just asking a question cuz if you saw proof I’d be sure to stay away from that brand.
My only point is that I think if you shop around I think there are good ones out there. If you want to save some money, get a quality generic and have it tested, I’m sure it’ll save you a good clip in the long run. Or stick with what you like. No harm in that either.
Also, as to generics: proteins/peptides are a whole different league then simple organic molecules which most meds (incl. steroids) are. This is not the same as synthesizing some low molecular weight molecules such as steroids, thyroid hormones, general meds ect.. Here we are talking about proteins synthesized in living organisms and generally not eucaryotic cells, which in addition require having disulfide bridges and other posttranslational modifications (e.g. glycolysation). Remember, wrongly glycosylated EPO produced in the 1990s caused thousands to develop antibodies against the foreign protein which then also reacted against their own endogenous EPO and in the process many died and the surviving people still require frequent blood transfusions. Similar things happened with a few more PHARMA GRADE proteins (e.g. various forms of insulins). So the risk of something of this happening with UGL manufacturing is quite a lot higher even if the people manufacturing the shit know what they are doing and even if it were a perfect exact copy of human 191aa hGH.
While the risk with normal meds and PEDs is you are not getting what it is advertised (e.g. counterfeit var) or at most contamination, the risk with introducing foreign proteins into your body directly by injection is your own adaptive immune system. Just putting it out there. Nobody ever thinks of that. And it is actually quite a mystery to me why this has not happened much more frequently with BBers using generic HcG or hGH (or perhaps it happened but they just don´t realize as both proteins are not as essential as EPO).
Personal anecdote:
In the past I had fertility issues and went to a very knowledgeable endocrinologist at a medical university. So we decided to get my sperm production going using HcG and FSH and then freeze my sperm just to be on the safe side (fortunately it worked and I deposited sperm 2x as I want to have kids in the future). Upon starting treatment and knowing of my history of bodybuilding he told me to NEVER ever switch the brands of HcG and FSH from different companies as the risk of antibody production then is multiplied (as the posttranslational modifications even between pharma grade products are different). The exact same holds for people using a certain kind of insulin or GH: they are advised to stick to the brands they are using in order to avoid antibody production which can reduce efficacy over time and also counter ones own endogenous proteins (and this phenomenon of antibody crossreaction is widely reported in the literature). So what do you think happens when BBers actually switch between GENERIC versions of GH of more or less dubious origin all the time (and this would even be an issue to consider if all of these generics were 100% the real deal which I highly doubt)?? Just look at peoples IGF1 baseline after using years of generic GH: often below 100 despite eating a very high protein diet and lifting heavy stuff…(evidence or at least an indicator that some of their endogenous GH might be countered by something)
Just my 2 cents with the premise of SAFETY FIRST despite some of you guys not wanting to hear this.
Thank you very much sir.
My reasoning when I made the comment: It is not just about me. This site is all about SAFETY first -perhaps the only steroid website out there. As I repeated many times, I don´t have any evidence nor have I tried too many UGL GH myself. I just wanted to raise a point for others perhaps to keep in mind.
You seem pretty experienced with GH and much more experienced then I am, so it would be very interesting for you/me/others if you could try some Western pharma GH and see whether you can tell a difference or not.
Right I’ve had about enough of this.....
2) Except the molecular weight of 191aa rBGH (46,000 daltons I believe) is pretty different from that of 191aa rHGH (22,224 daltons) so while both 191aa forms of rGH they would show up as very different molecules in testing which is my labs like simec, chemtox, lab4tox and even Janoshik would immediately spot the difference.
1) While I’ve run generics that have made me feel like crap (too many impurities is my view rather than it being bovine or some other animal and in fact testing showed this to be the case) I’ve also run generics where I felt better than some Pharma. This is way too subjective as your point out and your inherent bias here is clearly going to point you to this conclusion.
Now if you don’t mind please why don’t you start your own threat over in the HGH forum where you and others can debate this and any other multitude of GH related conspiracy theories to your hearts content!
Ok sorry to hijack your threat.
Just last thing then you are right we should stop.
The bovine form is almost exactly the same as the human form and also molecular weight of bGH is (almost) the same as human GH (why should the same number of AS whose sequence is on top pretty well conserved among mammals have such a drastically different molecular weight?? 1 AS on average weighs +/- roughly 100D): https://www.prospecbio.com/growth_hormone_bovine
As to whether these labs would spot the difference I don´t know but I am guessing no.
And no, I do believe you. Perhaps we just tried different brands and you had the real deal while I did not. The possibility that proper UGL hGH is out there is of course very real. But all I did was speculate and I didn´t want to offend you or anyone else nor did I say anything about Paratropin which I have never tried. I just wanted to say that if any of these hormones are indeed bovine instead of human then the POSSIBILITY of antibody production that would crossreact with endogenous GH (manifesting itself as a decreased IGF1 upon stopping exogenous GH as enodgenous GH is complexed to some degree with these antibodies and thus rendered ineffective) MIGHT be something to consider. I never intended for all this to evolve into the stand-off we are having right now and I am sorry it did.
Anyway, enjoy your product and keep us posted what you think of it.
Your paranoia is well justified. People will do anything these days. Money is the route of all evil.
Yes proper pure rHGH that cheap is just too good to be true. Simple as that. Black tops, grey tops or whatever fancy containers and packages they put it in, I bet it is all similar stuff, sometimes diluted and laced with different things and sometimes perhaps pure GH...but not hGH
Me after running my kit of GH....
Nearly shot coffee out of my nose! LOL
Lol!
You've definitely done alot of tes6for the community, much appreciated!! I have a kit of these on the way RN, cant wait to try!! This will be my 5th different brand of GH I'm trying out, I have definitely felt the difference by brand. Stay healthy and blessed!!