Sarms and test suppression
I have been reading alot about these sarms and how they are apparently less suppressive than AAS. When I researches LGD 4033 and I found it does suppress natural testosterone even at low doses. This study used only small doses of 0.1mg 0.3mg and 1mg per day. It reduced total test for all groups but more importantly even though it reduced shbg free test was also reduced. Click on the charts at the bottom to see the hormonal effects.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22459616
It's hard to see how something that can suppress on such low doses can be claimed to be mild or doses of 10mg per day could give a net gain in muscle with such a reduction in free testosterone. That said sarms seem to have a more individual effect judging by the mixed results I have seen. Another concern would be the problems associated with low test and it's metabolites (estrogen, dht etc) resulting from suppression.
I could see with its reduction in shbg lgd 4033 could be useful stacked with a test cycle.
Your thoughts???
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Im not big on lgd. Yk11 and rad better
I have had bloods done whilst on a 8 week 20mgRad, 20mg Osta Cycle and Test dropped from an already low 12n/mol to 1.72n/mol so I would say they are pretty suppressive.
Bloods don't lie, so something was suppressive to you. Likely the rad 140. I've had bloods draw. On ostarine and blood work LF, FSH, and test levels looked good.
Ostarine, GW, and S4 are about the only Sarms I'd take off cycle. LGD 4033, YK 11 really need to be ran with a testosterone base due to shut down.
I'm on 4th week of Lgd I didnt know about shut down will a test booster work?
It's hit or miss. Some people will recover just fine, some want get shut down, and some will need a pct. Probably best to run a little 4 week pct with clomid and torem/or nolv.
I've done what I believe is known as a weaker SARM - Ostarine - and had a significant shutdown. I was just coming off an oral cycle - I know, I'm not dong that anymore - and even with a 40/40/20/20 Nolva PCT, it still took about 4 months for me to feel normal again.
I wouldn't trust people who say it doesn't shut you down. I had people tell me the same thing about orals only, and they were wrong. I'd trust the science, and the science says it wills suppress.
rocketballzWhat were your expectations regarding recovery? It can take 6 months or more to fully recover especially from a long suppressive cycle like a 19 nor. Even at 6 months post pct you still may not be at homeostasis. It's generally different with everyone, but rest assured it will take several months to get back to "normal". That's one reason some guys never come "off". Because of the side effects of low T. However...my experience was that Ostarine, at low doses (15mg/day), right before and during the first few weeks of PCT is NOT suppressive and in fact actually mitigated the crash that ultimately comes when the longest ester is near to or has cleared your system and pct begins. I had bloods taken 5 months after pct was finished, so 6 months since last pin and my LH was still elevated at 9.9 and my total test was at 605. Thats why it's prudent, at least for me and my goals, to run one 12-16 week cycle a year and recover the rest of the year. Hopefully you learned your lesson with oral only cycles....they're really for chicks only and its usually anavar.
I had expected a couple months best-case and 4-months being more likely. I'd done a couple before and never had problems like this last time. I've got a doc appt in a week to check out where things are at, and will go from there. It has been about 4 months now and I am feeling much better lately, so hopefully I'm close.
I still have Ostarine left and if I do a real cycle - slowly gathering up the necessities - then I may take that advice and run a low dose at the end. I did feel it made a difference in how my joints felt, but could have been placebo b/c that's what I wanted out of if, based on what people were saying it helped with.
I've only done orals to boost recovery when my body gets worn down from sports and lifting, so timing a real cycle out once a year to end right between transition from indoor to outdoor volleyball would be helpful.
I still don't know how my buddy can do oral only cycle and look like a beast. He does shorter ones though, and does appear to be quite genetically gifted. Which is probably why a normal guy like me should stop getting advice from him.
So after all that yammering from me, question for you, if you don't mind - when did you take the ostarine and how long? Started after your last pin and stopped partway through PCT?
rocketballzI ran a 16 week test e/c only cycle, which was too long in reality but I had a good reason (at least I thought so lol). Two weeks after my last pin I started pct. During the 2nd week of those 2 weeks I blasted hcg @ 1500 iu's eod for a week and then stopped before commencing PCT. I started the ostarine 2 days before I started with the clomid and nolva...
So my PCT looked like this: HCG blast while waiting for long esters to clear (2nd week while waiting) - stopped before starting pct, Ostarine at 15mgs/day two days prior to starting standard pct (don't know if there's any benefit to starting pre-pct but I wanted it to build up some in my system, if possible). Then after waiting two weeks from last pin of enth I did the standard pct protocol of clomid/nolva 100/40 for two weeks then 50/20 for another two weeks. I took the Ostarine pretty much throughout PCT at 15-20mgs max/day. I was also taking aromasin at 12.5mg ed for the first couple weeks in case of estro rebound (which i had), supps everyday... DAA and a good tribulus based test booster I had, ZMA, Vit D, and fish oil. I was looking to hit my HPTA from all angles to get it back up and running asap.
To my surprise the ostarine (and maybe the hcg blast too) completely got rid of the "crash" that comes about a week or two INTO pct. My first couple cycles pct was a pain in the ass. Major mood swings, no energy, no libido at all, no desire to workout, etc. However, even after a 16 weeker I experienced ZERO hormonal crash during or after PCT with the protocol I used. Ostarine at low doses has been pretty much proven to be non-suppressive. It binds to the AR receptor so when your test levels drop precipitously during pct, the ostarine will activate some of those AR receptors, which promotes anabolism, but to a lesser degree than straight testosterone. Add in clomid, nolvadex, and DAA and getting the HPTA back up and running wasn't so difficult (knocking on wood right now). What's difficult and takes time is getting to homeostasis. The clomid and nolva, once they start to kick in, will make your test levels zoom higher (and estro too).
So...the benefits I experienced with ostarine was no post cycle crash, regular energy levels during pct, and minimal loss of muscle mass during and after pct because it promotes anabolism as opposed to the catabolism. Just don't over do it with the ostarine and don't run it for longer than a month, imo. It can be safely used for up to like 6 weeks with none to minimal suppression at higher doses (30mgs/day+). At 15mgs/day I didn't feel I was suppresed...just the opposite.
Here's the thing tho with all of this. It does take a long time to recover...especially for older guys like me. I got a hormone panel from my doctor 5 1/2 months after I stopped pct and my total test was 605, my LH was still elevated at 9.9 and my fsh was good at like 5.2. I am certain these levels came down some more and finally stabilized, and this is just a guess, around Month 6 - 6 1/2 post pct. I have no idea why my LH was still elevated, just above the ref range, after 5 1/2 months with no aas, no test boosters, no nothing. I just started this year's cycle and will incorporate the exact same protocol for pct. Bro, I can't stress to you how important it is to get REAL pharmaceutical pct meds. There are plenty of sources on here that sell the real stuff, european pharmaceutical meds. And also find a reputable source for the ostarine. If you need help with that just pm me. Good luck bro, hope I helped some.