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Sam I Am
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Health Care Bill

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I'm actually glad it failed. Any opinions out there?

Greg's picture

We all want to have affordable healthcare that is sustainable, where we can get better service and care for less. and where there is a social safety net for those who need it.

Conservatives believe the free market unleashed will solve the problem. Liberals see no historical proof that that would be the case and have little faith and tolerance for the "risk" involved in an open market system. People in their view are inherently greedy and bad.

Liberals feel single payer is the fair and sure way all will get equal care. Conservatives do not trust government and feel it's government overreach to impose a "tax" to force us to buy healthcare even if we do not need it. They do not see evidence that the government can manage healthcare any better than they can handle Social Security. (which by the way was unpopular and way more broken than it is today - it took several years to tweak it to work as it has for the last 80 years)

One of the political games is washington does not speak clearly when they bounce costs around. we hear annual numbers but they are often 8 to 10 year plans.

If we can get our damn Congress to work togeather we might find a middle ground.

  • Get rid of healthcare and pharma lobbyists.
  • Open up the market, no more territories or zones. You'll hear an uproar that everything will fall apart. Mostly from those whose hands are in the pockets of the healthcare/pharma industry and, those holding stock in said companies because they know their free ride is over. they will need to adapt to the new reality. This is a good thing in the long run. Not so much in the short term.
  • tort reform to bring the insurance cost/risk down for hospitals, doctors, and pharma.
  • Streamline FDA approval for new drugs reducing costs in red tape getting a drug to market.
  • Inheritable pre tax health savings accounts that work like Annuities when they exceed a certain amount.
  • A free market healthcare system where companies can tailor plans around whatever market demands they want to fill.
  • comprehensive, government backed, catastrophic health care that kicks in at let's say 300,000 dollars.
  • health care clinics in strip malls and retail centers that are not hospitals and run by nurse practitioners and EMT's, for minor injuries, checkups, etc.
  • A social and government safety net to cover the poor and elderly.
  • What we'd end up with is across the board cheaper healthcare because of tort reform and less red tape and free market competition. Health savings accounts that in time (one lifetime and generationally), can become another form of income when you're retired. Lower insurance costs because plans would cover you upto 300,000 (the level government single payer would kick in). And a cheaper version of obama care because the bulk of healthcare costs would be covered by individuals and insurance companies.

    Sam I Am's picture

    You hit the nail on the head. Lobbyists are basically people who legally bribe.

    exoticnfit's picture

    Had the government focused solely on the 11million in need instead of revamping a system that was "working better than it has for the past 8yrs" we would all be better off than we are now.

    Instead, it has made far more than the 11million in a position where insurance is either an option or affordable.

    I'm not against much of what you proposed above however just like "welfare" I want to see people getting what they need based on also proving they are worth the added cost to the rest of us should that come into play.

    Sitting at home collecting checks has become a multi-generational concept that is basically causing no incentive to work for those interested in doing so because they refuse to put themselves in a position to do better than min wage.

    I do not want to see the same happen with healthcare much less where it has been for 8yrs where now even the hardworking person is having to figure out whether to continue paying a mortgage payment or covering the family with insurance.

    Hopefully Liberals took note of the "historical proof" from the past 8yrs that one payer was/is far worse than what they perceive free market to be. Almost EVERYONE no matter their political position has been effected in some way negatively with the aca.

    Anyway, been great chatting with you gents.

    Onto the next.

    Greg's picture

    I agree, I said from the start years ago setting aside a ridiculous amount like 1 billion dollars per individual (11 billion) would have been much easier and cheaper than what they pushed for and passed... but, those 11 million were never the true intent. The true goal was to get us to a single payer government run healthcare system.

    The dems had their only shot at it. Pelosi and Reid cornered the young, wet behind the ears ex-senator, Obama, and got him to change focus on ramming healthcare through before the midterm elections instead of the economy.

    They knew it would implode in ten years, so phase two was to get Hillary to bring it (single payer) across the finish line.

    I also do not think the government should be in the welfare business (of any kind) however, I also know that this is a country of diverse opinions, and the art of compromise needs to be rediscovered.

    exoticnfit's picture

    I agree on welfare thoughts as well.

    Everyone has choice and free will and with extreme rare exception to perhaps mentally challenged individuals (I don't include physically for the most part because there are numerous who are doing great on their own) if you are able bodied and of sound mind...get off your ass and do work!

    I'm indifferent whether someone works hard or smart 3hrs or 80hrs+ a week it is a choice and we all have opportunity (irony is much funding is available for those within the poverty line for this) to create our small businesses as well.

    Don't want to flip burgers for a living...cool, if you have no alternate skill set the large majority can do house cleaning and/or basic landscaping and it has a very minimal start up cost.

    I would be in much favor for supporting that then watching people abuse the welfare system as if it was a career choice.

    Compromise has got us in trouble in many instances and thus the "PC" way of saying/doing things is actually making it more challenging to get people motivated to partake in being an active contributing member to society. Even just taking care of you own is a contribution none the less because you are not one of the many putting unnecessary strain on support systems.

    All support systems should have no more than a 6-12mth "leg up" opportunity of which you get to use once every 3-5yrs when times are most desperate. This would eliminate even more wasteful support spending on individuals playing the system than what we have already removed (in some states) that require drug testing to continue.

    Yes, 11billion compared to Trillions would have indeed been steep but a more active way to provide a solution than to create the cluster-$%#^ we have now.

    It was indeed the dreaded single payer government run healthcare that was the goal and one that has proven to fail over time in many countries either by way of funding or in providing less than optimal care for what is paid.

    Greg's picture

    When Roosevelt started it all with the new deal, It was needed to jump start us out of the depression. However, even then they just didn't give money away.

    People didn't like taking hand outs, and the government started work programs like the CCC. It didn't matter if all you did was dig one hole to fill another, you worked, you got experiance and discipline from working, you kept your pride, and, a lot of infrastructure, dams, and forest trails were created so we say something for our money.

    In time that eroded as special interest groups were discovered and given exception -some justified; Elderly and feeble, handicapped, etc. As our society changed (less reliance on each other and more on the government), it was an easy step to move on to allowing the mom with 8 kids to get paid to stay home (where as the eldest child, grand parent, neighbor, would have done so before).... And then the slippery slope began and our attitude about taking handouts changed into, "You're a fool not to take free money if you can even if you don't need it".

    In the 70's people used to hide the fact they had to use food stamps they were embarrassed if a cashier exposed the stamp hiding under a dollar bill to others standing in line at checkout. Now, the attitude is, "It's my right, if you don't like it, change the law."

    It's also a good way to control the population Inner city welfare recipients are modern day plantation slaves (of all races). They have no job history, no skills, poorly educated, and told that conservative politicians are going to take away your only hope to survive. So they vote to continue their handouts, rather than risk losing them for some pie-in-the-sky promise of job training and a way out. of their cycle of dependence... a bird in the hand

    Steveb's picture

    Did FDR End the Great Depression?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9HT4fQWtdg

    Ace Ventura's picture

    Lol red

    Greg's picture

    Never said he did. My discussion is solely about welfare programs which required you to work. Even the CCC, which I made a referenced to, started out only for men between 18 and 25 but then expanded to 17-28. Showing,yet again, how a little program which was meant to be temporary and limited expanded... as all government programs tend to do.

    What starts out as a leg up, becomes a hand out, and then an entitlement.

    And, contrary to your prager professor, I do believe the economic pump needed to be primed. Unfortunately what started out as small limited programs grew to something way too expensive. I'd be interested to know what the professor would have concluded if the programs remained small and were terminated after the economy started moving along.

    Steveb's picture

    Have you ever heard of Milton Freedman or Thomas Sowell? They break down FDR and the great depression really well.

    Socialism never stays small it always grows and grows til it fails.

    Greg's picture

    Socialism never stays small it always grows and grows til it fails.

    My point exactly. The intentions are noble. But, time and time again, my experiance has been that it is uncertainty and fear that brings the best out of us; where neighbor helps neighbor.

    The social safety net pulls us apart and relieves us of having to help each other directly.

    It used to be you knew your neighbors, Today you can live across the street from someone for years without knowing their name.

    The Impastable's picture

    Very interesting approach... If people would stop thinking short term hardship and focus on long term benefit this approach would definitely be a huge step up over anything we've ever had.

    Pale's picture

    I would be willing to give that a try much more readily than what we have now.

    Goose24's picture

    Lmao! Oh boy here we go again......

    Steveb's picture

    It looks like the new health care bill was mainly written by Rand Paul.

    Steveb's picture

    Trump just signed the healthcare bill through executive order.

    The Impastable's picture

    Did you read what it entails? Doesn't dismantle ACA.

    Steveb's picture

    Doesn't dismantle ACA

    Yes It did

    Pale's picture

    Steve, really bro...

    Steveb's picture

    Taking away the penalty is a big deal. Also stopping the looting of Fannie May and Freddie Mac to help pay for it.

    So ACA still exists but you're no longer forced to use it, pay for it, and there's better options. He just said today he's still getting rid of it.

    exoticnfit's picture

    I am not certain but I believe I heard it was also going to allow us to shop interstate for insurance.

    That added as well would be far better than what was forced onto the people by the previous administration.

    Not being forced to buy crap or have to pay a penalty is a huge step in the right direction and I appreciate the steps indicating forward movement that are actually going to benefit people.

    If you have to enforce healthcare it was doomed from the start. We've seen that come to fruition.

    Very thankful for any changes that get closer to wiping out that NON-affordable care act that was a sham.

    The Impastable's picture

    He also said he's gonna build the wall, that he has big hands, that he's draining the swamp... What he says and what he does don't always correlate.

    Steveb's picture

    The wall is being built now

    Pale's picture

    Not true. They are building small sections to bid on building the wall.

    Second, I don't recall hearing they got rid of the penalty for not having insurance.

    Steveb's picture

    The wall is happening, they've already set aside more than enough money for it and he just has to pick 1 of 8 prototypes.

    Steveb's picture

    Trump got rid of that penalty like 8 months ago. You didn't hear about it because it was not reported to much. You probably never heard that they were illegaly raiding private Freddie Mac And Sallie May accounts to help pay for ACA but it happened.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2017/01/24/the-stupidest-p...

    https://www.google.com/amp/www.foxbusiness.com/politics/2017/05/01/mnuch...

    Ace Ventura's picture

    too*
    Mae*

    Steveb's picture

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/beltway/2017/04/10/whats-happened-to-the-ac...

    You don't have to report if you had insurance or not. So if you don't want to pay the fine you do not as of January 20, 2017.

    Pale's picture

    I have my doubts on this but I will definitely show my CPA.

    Goose24's picture

    Yea Pale Steve is correct it was one of the first things Trump penned in.

    Nothing like telling a 18 year old kid he HAS to buy something he may feel as though he doesn't need.
    Let's add up all the things an 18 year old kid would have to pay for by today standards.
    -rent
    -car loan
    -car insurance
    School loans (if they went to college or any schooling after high school.
    -books for classes (if they go to college)
    -food
    -cable
    -internet
    -cell phone
    -gym membership ;)

    THEN WE ADD HEALTH INSURANCE TO THAT!?
    NOT TO MENTION FOR BIG BIG MONEY. Because of the pools obama created where a young person pays for a dieing 95 year old person tab who usually doesn't have the cash to pay the tab. Or having men pooled in with women so men are paying for mammograms when they would never need one. Or making 65 + year olds pay for contraceptive. This shit only works by the MANDATE that us as US citizens MUST BY LAW pay for insurance (even if we don't want it) and before someone says blah blah blah you don't need to sign up.. or just take the tax hit. I would say the penalties were being raised dramatically by the Obama administration to try to force people into signing up by raising the penalty so high it would be more economical for thus Americans to just buy the Obamacare.

    Pale's picture

    I understood the whole idea behind it but they were truly hoping that we would all float the costs of the poor instead of just getting rid of the burden health insurance companies themselves are putting on the entire chain. That is the link that can be eliminated.

    Steveb's picture

    I filed late because I always owe so I'm in no hurry. I wasn't even asked if I had insurance or not. Last year I was asked.

    Pale's picture

    Last year was the first year I went without and they hit me for it.

    Greg's picture

    Does not, makes some of it more ineffective... but still all of it is on the books. Kind of like defunding a law to make it ineffective.

    Steveb's picture

    ACA was designed to fail. The guy who wrote said so. ACA's death began when they removed the mandate and fines. There's no reason for it now it will be gone soon.

    Greg's picture

    unfortunately, until it's off the books, it can be resurrected.

    The Impastable's picture

    Exactly. Allows for purchase of short term policies (which ironically don't necessarily have to offer pre-existing condition support, big lol on that), enables a broader range of reimbursement by employers, and some other kick the can nonsense about studying how to lower costs... All of which is bogus since the next administration can issue their own EO to reverse course...

    exoticnfit's picture

    Thankfully we'll have Trump in 2020 and between now and then or in that next term (if needed) we will finally rid ourselves of the supposed ACA.

    Pale's picture

    Yea, I wish I actually knew you so we could place a real bet on that. trump will be lucky to make it through his first term. After all of this mess today I really cannot wait to see the bloodbath in the mid term elections.

    exoticnfit's picture

    Me too.

    Trust me...me too.

    The people voted him in for his promises and he unlike the previous is doing his best to uphold them and they are VERY effective at making the people of America more prosperous.

    With how effective he has been in such a short time period (compared to two terms of previous) he will not only have a strong chance winning a second term but he will set up more Presidential Victories afterword.

    I've already heard the worse about what people think/felt about Trump but everyone including all the "political pundits" were wrong.

    That is something that is tough to swallow for most but get used to it!

    The Impastable's picture

    You're really hedging your bets on that. I don't see trump as a 2 term president... Doesn't mean I can't see a different republican taking the spot, one that would be more effective at dismantling it.

    exoticnfit's picture

    The beauty of watching the dismantling of a "born to be" ineffective aca has been phenomenal.

    I am excited to see us get back to what works, FREE MARKET CHOICE.

    You are right in that after his second term, he will have set up a different republican to take his place for another possibly two terms afterward which will hopefully right the course of America that was on a purposefully lead sinking from the previous administration.

    I look forward to seeing more effective immigration controls, border controls and the lower of taxes among other things.

    It is coming in slowly but thankfully surely.

    In the mean time, I will just kick back and watch the great country America come back to her former glory and beyond!!!

    Sam I Am's picture

    It depends. If middle class America loses money because the ins subsidies are gone I don’t beleive he will be returning. The lower premiums are going to be for young healthy people. The majority of Americans are ageing baby boomers many have pre existing conditions. These are the people that show up at the polls. Way to early to make that call.

    Pale's picture

    I think the guy above is living in a self-created bubble. When people start renewing their policies the anger is going to come boiling over.

    exoticnfit's picture

    You don't think everyone who remembers "you can keep your doctor, your insurance plan and it will be AFFORDABLE" won't be voting too?

    People were already at the boiling point and why they voted TRUMP because the supposed aca was exactly the opposite of what was told to the American public.

    Again, I am happy for you if you were not among the millions affected by what was the biggest scam of raised premiums in history based on a "affordable care act" option that proved itself a failure within the first 2yrs of implementation.

    I for one have zero desire to pay for services I would never used just based on my gender alone...I want access to healthcare coverage that suits me and my families needs without any added fluff.

    It's also great to have freedom from being penalized for deciding to not obtain healthcare if that is preferred over paying hyper inflated prices for what I don't want.

    I don't live in bubbles as I have no reason to feel insecure and need one.

    Pale's picture

    I am an upper middle class business owner, so yes I was effected. But I was also effected by the last 20 years of 20%+ increases every year. You seem to have suffered some form of memory loss and forget why the ACA came into being in the first place. And as much as we may not like it, using trigger words like scam is just being dishonest on yoru part.

    The Impastable's picture

    Growing up my family went from the lower class to lower middle class, and somehow regardless of where they were in their standing their health insurance costs kept going up year after year. Even with the ACA their costs went up, but at a much lower percentage than in prior years. Both of my parents seem to have this strange memory loss as well.

    It's also about fucking time we stopped treating health care as a privilege like some third world country and started treating it as a human right.

    You know, I'm gonna be honest here but from my personal experiences dealing with people, the reason they hate ACA so much stems from the fact that a black man took something that was once reserved for the privileged white classes and forced it to be available to all. If Reagan passed the ACA it would be heroic.

    Pale's picture

    I completely agree. Our country blows money on all sorts of shit we don't need, like foreign aid to pakistan, Israel, Egypt, and dozens of others. In the greatest country in the greatest country in the world, healthcare should be a right. No two ways about it. If you like feeling superior to everyone else I imagine you won't agree, but for me I feel much of my success is due to me also being charitable.

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