Proper TEST dose
I am no endocrinologist but from all my years in school and experience as a Trainer and AAS enthusiast, I am a little skeptic about running such high levels of TEST during a cycle. I understand that one of the goals is to maintain normal function during cycle. It seems that because we don't need "extra" TEST to do this just a "lower" or TRT (For long esters) dose, why such high TEST doses during cycle. I know every one is different and some might need more than others, but when it comes to skeletal muscle are not the AAS and TEST going to the same receptors. If this is true it would seem that we want to give the AAS with a better anabolic/androgenic ratio a chance to do its job. TEST binds to other areas of the body to help with normal physiological function, so in theory more wouldn't do this better than close to or slightly above normal levels. So why flood our body with TEST and cause a sort of chemical warfare for our receptors. Personally in my last two cycle I have run lower TEST doses than "bro-science" recommended with great results. Both with DECA and TREN. I am basing this of a decently higher than basic understanding of hormonal functions of muscle and the body in general, as well as my own experience. What are your thoughts and experience on the subject. Will this decrease gains? Will this increase sides? Will it decrease sides? Thanks for your participation in this discussion.
For the purposes of the discussion I am thinking 150mg to 200mg TEST CYP or E a week would be considered TRT.
TEST P I would consider 100mg EOD. I know PROP is not used for TRT, but for the discussion that is the range I'm talking about.
High doses would be 500mg-1000mg of TEST CYP or E a week, and 200mg-300mg+ of TEST P EOD.
Compounds I have had sucess with these "lower" doses of TEST alongside is NPP at 200mg EOD, DECA at 400mg a week, TREN A at 200mg EOD, TREN E 400mg every week, and with both the DECA and TREN I have run EQ on top at 400mg every week. I did front load both the EQ (1200mg shot) and the DECA (800mg shot).
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i've never gone above testosterone at 500mg/w... although have dosed other compounds higher at around 800mg/w such as equipoise and tren,
maybe my next cycle ill just run test alone at a high dose and see what its like
You know after all this I was thinking the same thing. If you look at TEST as a compound its got a lot of bang to it. For me though I just love TREN strength. But it would a productive and fun cycle to just run high TEST.
ive ran it low and high, very high. I can assure you that high dose test is not that great of a difference. kinda goes like this for me(my opinion and experience)
400mg/w =65%
500mg/w=75%
750mg/w=85%
1000mg/w=90%
1500mg/w=95%
2000mg/w=100%
the risks, sides, blood pressure, costs, stop being beneficial after 750mg/w. my current cycle I started 2 days ago im back down to 600mg/w. its the same principle in life with everything we do, go big and everything else has to go big too. Porsche=high mechanic costs... lift on truck=tires, suspension problems... 15inch subs=big amps, alternator, big tweeters....lots of property=high maintenance, higher mortgage/property tax....trophy wife=your bank account
What do you mean 2,000mg=100%? 100% gains or what
2000 is the highest ive ran so it has to be the strongest. simple math tells you that the more you run the stronger itll be, however the difference as you go higher is minimal, and the return on investment drops drastically, sides and health issues increase drastically, saturation of receptors happened faster and stayed longer and my window of opportunity seemed much shorter. So going back to that simple math MORE is NOT BETTER
RustyhookerDamn good analogies!! Especially trophy wife. Lol!
LOL, Hell yeah. That is some simply stated wisdom from a VET. Thanks for that.
leonidas7You'll find on plenty of other boards that low test cycles are pretty common. A lot of people seem extremely sensitive to it, and have estrogen / bloat issues with even modest doses.
That being said, this is all a game of individuals. No two people will respond the same to a hormone, and one must gauge this for themselves.
I, personally, am a fan of test, and even big doses of it. I have a large, wide frame, and my body seems to handle it quite well. It thickens me up in a way that no other compound has been able to match.
There is also a reported synergy between high test doses and HGH, and this appears to differ from other compounds. I am only beginning HGH so I can't report this as a fact for me, but a lot of advanced guys swear by it.
I know this site doesn't have many real bodybuilder members (competition level), but you will not find many competitive bodybuilders who play around with low doses of test unless it is coming close to a show. I'm sure there is a reason for that.
RustyhookerLow test is less estro conversion and water retention. But try running a lower test cycle with provi or Winny. Unbinding test into free test.
Great info, thanks for your post.
lol the only compound I see as a "lower" dose in the list you have listed is eq, wich I run at 600, the rest is actually fairly decent doses, npp @ 200 eod is not low, deca @ 400 is a good dose, tren a @ 200 eod is actualy quite high, tren e @ 400 is fine, so I don't consider any of that lower dosing if they are low doses, ive been cycling wrong!
I mean the TEST doses, those are the doses I have run with the listed "low" test doses with success. I wouldn't consider those other compounds at low doses at all.
SkinnyGuyThe best results for a cycle I ever did was 400mg of Test E per week, with 75mg of Tren Acetate EOD. Some guys told me to double the Testosterone, so I tried that cycle again with increase Test dose but didn't notice any real difference other than more bloating.
The same thing went for a Test and Deca cycle and Test and EQ cycle. I found great results when keeping the Test at 300-400mg per week. I guess this all comes down to each individual person, body mass, and how he reacts to a cycle, etc. I personally get way to many negative sides running anything above 600mg of test per week. But I know guys smaller than me running 800mg per week or more with no problems. All that said....I always run comparable amounts of test when running Deca. Made the mistake of running Deca without enough test and not a fun time! Sex life sucked!
Great info, thanks for your time. I will take this into consideration when planing my next cycle.
So... it does seem that Higher doses with DECA is common due to fear of DECA dick:( Do you guys think that if running a lower than MG to MG dose of TEST with DECA would decrease gains? I am very on point with my training and 90% with my diet. There is always room for improvement on both but I am not just pinning and crossing my fingers. I do like ice cream though so that's the 10% of the diet that's in the shitter.
I did not experience any loss from running deca higher, only problem was erection!
Awesome, thanks again for your time. This is so much more helpful than going from board to board trying to find info not knowing if its coming form someone who just started or a real VET.
So let me get this straight. you think that a steroid cycle should not exceed a TRT dose of test? maybe you should put down what you mean by dose, how many mg/w is high to you? what was your last run with deca and test milligram wise?
Thanks for your help in making the forum more complete with the info you requested. I really should have placed that in the forum post, but its my first post and I wrongly assumed people would understand what doses i meant. Thanks again.
I ran NPP at 200mg EOD with 100mg of PROP and felt fine. I know this would not be TRT but it is quite low compared to what many would recommend to run. I have run 150mg-200mg of CYP a week with both DECA (400mg a week with 800mg booster shot to start) and TREN A (200mg EOD). After the TREN A I went to TREN E at 400 mg a week and kept the CYP the same and was fine. I mean fine as far as normal function. The DECA and TREN were two separate cycles. I enjoyed both and got great gains. My sexual function was elevated and my sides were normal for compounds but minimal in comparison to when I have run MUCH higher doses of TEST. I'm wondering if this is a personal thing or a sign that in general we are wasting a lot of TEST by running such high doses Like 300mg of PROP, or 500mg -1000mg or CYP or TEST E.
I have read many times about people running low test dose with higher deca and being fine, even increased sex drive. Which I thought odd myself as everyone seems to say double the test dose to eliminate deca dick sides. So I personally tried several different times to adjust my test dose more closely to my deca dose. At a dose higher then test I did indeed get deca dick, felt great at first but appeared to get desensitised and I could not keep erection. The best I could do was an equal dose of each compounds, however at this dose I had problems getting off at the same speed I would have without the deca there. So its clear to me from my own experience that deca should for some people be ran at a lower dose then test, and most people will run it much higher in fear of experiencing deca dick.
Tren is a different ball game, it is very common to run tren at a higher dose then test as test amplifies the tren sides. Some people say that they compete for the same receptor, I dont know if that is true. I can tell you that my experience has been that when running test at a higher dose closer or more then tren I feel better, but my tren sides are much worse in terms of sleep. tren being so much stronger then test can be ran at a low dose and be successful. I have ran it as low as 35mg/d and experienced no sides but it was effective.
As far as dose of test, this really comes down to lab tests, to know what your levels are would determine dose. I can tell you from my own experience that a dose of 100-200mg/w is not enough for me to run a cycle. I actually run 250mg/w as my TRT and I dont get any kind of benefit from it at the gym other then feel normal. The lowest dose I can run before I feel it in the gym and am able to put on weight like im on a cycle is 400mg/w. But like I said this can be determined by labs, or lots of experience with compounds. Most labs that I have seen from 200mg/w bring people up to a TRT level, or normal level of test that the body should already produce. So in terms of cycling it would make little sense to run a cycle, shut down your natural production, and only have a test level close to natural. Is this a universal plan? no! labs should be taken.
In your case, being able to run such low doses is awesome, I do wonder if you may have low T and running a TRT dose makes you feel like your on cycle. I can tell you from my experience that when I use test that is bunk and my levels drop down very low I feel ok but can tell a significant difference, and when I get some legit stuff in my body it feels pretty damn good! Low T sucks ass.
Now im basing any of my finding on any kind of publications or bro science this is just my experience with these compounds over many cycles. Do I feel that alot of people use to much gear? Absolutely!
Wow, Thank you for your time on that post. That was very informative. I don't believe I have low T as I have had bloods done prior to stating cycles and was good, and never had massive issues gaining or with sex drive and energy. Just hit what I felt to be my genetic potential and wanted to break that wall. I do seem to respond very well to AAS as far as sides and getting good gains from "lower" doses. Keep in mind I saw lower in regards to what I have seen around the boards which sometimes seems like guys are just throwing insane Mg's in their bodies in hopes to grow despite training and diet. I really don't know but it is all very interesting.
What are u talking about u are using way more than trt which is usually 125 a week to the top end of 200. On shot of prop a week is bout the same as trt and u was doin it EOD. U was running more than 300 a week of prop.then u was running up to 800 a week of tren. I totally not understandings your I post u say u don't need
nothing over trt but u running a ton more than trt
Correct, I wouldn't consider PROP TRT but it is still lower than what is commonly used.
No its not I just ran a prop cycle 100 EOD thats very typical amount ran it with Masterson had an amazing cycle
OK, well I would consider it low from what I have seen others running on many other boards. I dont consider it low for me but when looking at cycle logs and recommended doses with cycles I have found higher more often. Thanks for your input.
Lol i always run small easy cycles to some of the cycles I see on the here blow my mind. I get what u saying thought u meant to run a cycle u only need trt levels had me confused I personally never went over 500 a week of test
Yeah my wording was confusing to others so I have been trying to refine it. I just see MASSIVE doses of test along side some really heavy does of compounds like 700mg of TEST E a week and 600 MG of TREN E a week and TREN A 50mg EOD. I am just blown blown away with those doses and thnk why so much TEST with the other compounds. Are not those the ones you want doing their thing? The test is there as a base, so do you need so much base considering it will compete for receptors. I know you get it but it and I appreciate your info.
the answer is simple! it is an attempt to fix the fact that diet and training is shit. however some compounds just dont work at low doses!
BetterOnTopAgreed anything over 500mg/wk isnt neccesary. Even with testosterone your body can only develop so fast considering myostatin. But unfortunately alot of people have created the mentality with gear that more is better. Only reason Ill ever even go up to 600mg/wk is for boner purposes.
Yeah, that's where my thoughts are too. 500mg is higher than I'm even talking but when I did choose to go higher it was only to take advantage of the sex drive enhancement. What did you run 500mg-600mg of TEST with?
BetterOnTopIve ran alot of things. Ive ran it with tren, deca, masteron, and a bunch of different orals obviously not all at once. 500-600 is a good range for me regardless of what else I run. If I go lower my sex drive goes to normal which I personally dont like.
RustyhookerSounds like you already have your answers.
Maybe for me personally, but I know there are VETS out there with years of experience, and some are even doctors. I am interested what there thoughts might be and to see if I am on a somewhat reasonable and logical thought path. And even if I am or am not, am I hindering my cycles by doing this. I personally don't feel I am but others might have a lot more info on the topic. So I wouldn't say I have my answers, I just have some insight that might be misguided or completely wrong?
RustyhookerYour wording sounded more of statement of facts instead of questioning theories of use.
Yes, you can grow on light doses. My first cycles never went above 350 total per week and my short butt would easily hit 190 @ 10-12% bf.. It in my opinion the food and training beyond the norm that forces growth. Gear is recovery. The secrets the vets use is the same secret for the last 20yrs as far as my knowledge goes. That secret is unbinding the test for example. Two roids that are very common will halt sex binding hormone. So again yes, 300Mg with the unbinding roids will yield twice what 600/wk delivers. Me personally, I'd rather and i do...run a small complimenting stack. Less Mg per week but still delivers big bang. Anything not used is converted or excreted. So IMO use just enough proper compounds to attain the goal. Rely on food and gym over gear.
Well said! Thanks for your time.