+ 4 How to plan your cycle
There are a lot of guys throwing up cycles that anyone that takes a look can tell they have no clue what there talking about, I'm going to try to help you guys with the basics.
Let's talk about bulking and your goal is to add as much quality pounds as you can. When doing this you want your gear working together all towards the same goal, working in unison each complementing the other such as below.
Test C or E or Sust
Decca or npp
Dbol or anadrol
The above compounds will work in unison to achieve a quality bulk. Now I will list what a lot of guys do they put together compounds that do not work in unison.
Test C or E Or Prop these work well
npp or decca these work well
Whinny or anavar ( this does not belong here)
Match your esters long with long / short with short
These are good compounds but they don't have work like a train all going in the same direction. You will get better results have a better cycle when it's well thought out and not half assed .. and remember you have to eat and eat and eat more . There is no lean bulk or cut and bulk, your bulking or your cutting .. I will add more later feel free to add or join in.
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JamesClapperCan Test C or E work with 6 weeks of T-bol and 3500 + calories a day? instead of dbol or anadrol?
RustyhookerWhats your goal? The food guys need macros.
Within 6? No. But cant do anything without...
stats, priors, goals. Just words on a screen otherwise
I have to agree with the Rusted Hookerman below on this one. Food dictates everything. More so than training and gear usage . A solid well planned whole food diet that is focused to your specific goals is the foundation.
Personally, I have used many of the same combinations of compounds in order to achieve completely different goals. For example, I have made large bulking gains on a combo of Sust, EQ, Tbol, and Mesterolone Likewise, I have completely shredded up using a combination of these exact same compounds. The differences of course being diet, goal focused training, and administration.
The key is finding out what each compound does on its own in regards to your body. Nothing is black and white. All bodies are different so prescribing the perfect protocol is virtually impossible. Experimentation is imperative as is trial and error. Hopefully with forums like this , the errors will be minimal.
I would disagree in the statement that there is no such thing as a lean bulk. Body recomposition more often is gauged by gains in muscle mass accompanied by a drop in body fat. I have seen those that use compounds like primo , winny, and var with increased clean calories . That in essence is a lean bulk.
Now if ones goal were looking to gain 20 -35 lbs on a run, that of course, would not be the recommended course .
I do enjoy and understand the core of what you were trying to get at as far as gear combinations are concerned. It comes down to focus on the specific goal. What are you trying to accomplish? Focus and understanding your goals is the key to mapping out a plan for success.
Like you we trying to get at, especially for the newbs , is long esters are meant to be paired together and vice versa. They just work better synergistically .
A general rule of thumb is long esters combined with wet orals for bulking while short esters and dry oral compounds for cutting.
The only time I advocate utilizing short and long acting esters combined
is when using a long acting test such as T. Cyp or Test E. as a base
and then adding in a Suspension or TNE product preworkout as an extra boost.
That being said one can use almost any compound for anything as long as the nutrition and training is focused on the specific goals.
Damn good info here
RustyhookerBoom! +2 personal use and goals
Nice...
+2 your learning good job
RustyhookerFood obviously dictates the goals.
But too many dude see what looks cool on paper but its got no real world use. Mix matching shorts and longs simoly to pin. Look at mr 5% posted cycle of b.s..
Typically, i see lil or no use in orals as a kicker on long esters. Run the shorts! You're expecting a pill to boost things when the cycle isnt even going? Why? Think about what you think you feel on the first 4 weeks and try it mid or tail end.
The suddenly magic free test orals. Why not actually study what all the orals do. And study sex binding hormone. Study the timing of when sbh rises and why. You'll save money and efforts.
Bulk cut or vice versa in one cycle. Not so much. Pick a direction. Seeing the underweight folks talking about a cutter really wastes time. If you're 6ft tall 175...you only need to get your lazy ass in the gym.
Find your properly matched chems . It doesnt need to be a super complex blend of everything you have. Bulking or cutting can be done on about any combo. Dbol is one that wont fit into cutting imo but about anything else is flexible. Why? Because its the food that dictates. Gear is a method of muscular repair.
Look as an example of bulk or cut with anavar. Its highly anabolic! The strength boost is awesome in tail end of a cycle. But for me, the tradeoff is that it kills my appetite. Common sense then is even though its highly anabolic it kills appetite. So save it for a cutter when higher anabolism is needed due to calorie defecits.
Cutting on deca? Bulking on deca? Yup!! Deca is great in nitrogen retention. Nitrogen is preserving muscles on either. But holy cow the water???!! Clean your diet and think out doses prior. Research vitamin c. Cutting, try the deca low at 250. Bulking run it higher.
Or keep life simple....
we ask stats, goals and priors for YOU to get the best advice with what you know.
If you're lean below 12% cutting, Im gonna suggest prop and anavar. Because you're closer to goal weight. 15% im thinking enth and var tail end. Why? Extra few weeks to get down to 12% so the last 6 weeks you're on point to head towards 10.
Theres a million different routes. Dont over think the obvious. Or at least it seems obvious which is why forums can help so much.
Cardio...the word that universally freaks folks out. Research aerobic vs anaerobic exercise. It'll save you headaches
Hashtag1981Good to know ..
RustyhookerIt would sound crazy to some but if your food and gym is 100% then you will be successful on even small doses. My first was just 300mg test e a week. Kept 15 solid.
What if wanted to use two compounds like test cyp and mast e? Wouldn't the mast keep test from binding to shbg? Could i use this combo on an 8 week blast? Or is this a bad idea?
RustyhookerMasteron SBH debate has been around forever yet I've seen no science based proof that it frees up bound test.
However, the orals do and thats where you can use timing of sbh rise with orals like using them tail end. Or simple proviron. An eat and grow cycle. Less pins. Less timing.
Yep..I've not seen any science based proof either other than secondary to lowering estrogen. Thanks.
I have never seen anything in regards to mast binding up SHBG either.
Thanks rusty +2
RustyhookerHopefully it gets folks to try the magnifying glass and return with a great lineup of questions
Like you said eat eat eat and eat some more
I agree with what you wrote about these compounds not all going in the same direction. What about when with especially a Nandrolone or with dbol you want to add that finisher on the end which would be mast or var or winny.
I enjoy a good finisher especially var and I started running mast which is crazy strong in my opinion.
What's your opinion on finishers?
This finisher crap really has no place in a bulk. What are you trying to finish? If you are bulking and end up at 10% BF where a polisher may have its place, I am going to say that your bulk probably wasn't to successful. If I was to so called finish my bulk I would be finishing it with something like adrol or dbol to help put on as much lean body mass as possible. Var, mast, winni that isn't going to put any mass on you and your bodyfat is going to be too high anyway to take advantage of what those compounds can offer. Save them for the cut.
My bulk has been horrible I lost 8wks to really shitty gear and now in the past 4wks I've gained 20lbs ive got another 4wks left but I believed that adding winny or even mast might be a good idea. That will end today you know that I value your opinion alot
Thanks brother
Shitty gear is a real killer but it sounds like you are making a comeback. My favorite way to end a bulk is with a 2 wk blast of adrol. Just stick with your classic mass gainers when bulking and use the cosmetic drugs like winni, var, mast for your cuts.
Gotcha brother i was going to pulse adrol with this cycle but my bp went through the roof. I really wish I could still run dbol and adrol. I used to make really good gains and my diet was no where near where it is now thanks to everyone here.
Im just going to make the most out of the real decca and sust. I will still have a decent run
Thank you for dropping in .. people wasn't getting the idea .. they read to much crap on the internet instead of listening to guys that knows what works
I would honestly listen to anything mak says he is a really solid member here. So are you but I've been following mak since day one and his forums and comments and guidance have been gold to me.
You have to add this isn't first cycle stuff or were going to be hearing in the forums gj told us this is how to build a cycle from all the new guys. Lol
If they are that stupid I will enjoy flagging and begging them lol
X2...
What, specifically, makes prop and npp poor pairly? The pp ester is longer than the prop ester, yes, but then the enanthate ester is longer than the pp ester. So why would enanthate pair well with npp but not prop?
Lol "poor pairly." Pair poorly. There we go
Should had explained it better .. I threw the whinny and anavar in there those don't go with a bulk. Prop and prop work well together . Trying to do this on my phone is hard lol
Agreed - certain compounds are best paired together to reach said goal.
Disagree - There is no lean bulk. Diet plays a major key factor in my opinion of this though not necessarily just compounds
Diet is 90 percent .. you bulk or cut choose
I realize my argument is more of the diet cut/bulk category and not to take away from the fact that I do agree that to many people seem to be throwing in too many compounds thinking they will achieve The Rock status in 16 weeks
So your saying I can't gain 10-12lbs of straight muscle while dropping from 12-13% to 9-10% BF over the course of 6 months ?? Thats funny cause its literally what I do each year
Now this may not seem very significant and yes it is the long way around however most people assume I've gain 20lbs because when you lean out while gaining, 10lbs looks a lot bigger to most people
A newb just steppin into the gym and feeling iron for the first time this is a completely possible, but once you are no longer classified as beginner (give yourself at least year) it probably isn't going to happen.
RustyhookerUmmmm....no. sit back and take notes.
I got my pencil and notepad out, I'm not above some learnin
RustyhookerGood to hear
I'm not gonna knock you but your 180 bro you need to do some bulking to get that weight up cause if your running cycles and still that weight your wasting money .. run several bulks in a row then cut down .. again not picking on u so don't take it that way
I've been upwards to 195lbs in my prime and actually didn't like it....I felt out of proportion and just didn't like it. And I take no offense here what so ever....I'm here for the knowledge
Out of proportion to what? Your body identity? Honestly curious how you could be out of proportion just by virtue of your weight.
Genetically speaking certain things grow faster and bigger then others, for me at least. At that weight I just felt out of alignment, out of proportion....call it what you want and it could have all been in my head. I feel my best at 185lbs and around 10%
I'd say you're lucky to be content at such a light weight. Seriously, that's very healthy, both physically and psychologically. A lot of us catch dragons then immediately start chasing new ones.
According to Bill Roberts, you have Class I steroids whose effectiveness are dependent on binding to androgen receptors, and Class II steroids whose effectiveness are independent of binding to androgen receptors. So he says: Pick one from column one (deca, EQ, primo, var, etc), one from column two (dbol, drol, halo, winny, etc), done and done.
What do you think of Roberts' philosophy on the subject?
Don't actually know bill Roberts but its definitely a good way to start you want a anabolic and then an androgen to balance out the cycle. I still do this but take further steps about adding in and making more advanced cycles. I agree with this especially from 3rd cycle on. 1st test only add maybe Proviron 2nd then let your knowledge of compounds build your cycles 1 compound at a time extra
Technically, according to the literature I've read, merely having a balance between anabolics and androgens isn't enough. Trenbolone for example is both a very powerful anabolic and androgen, but most--including Roberts--advise strongly against running trenbolone alone. Not because of lack of testosterone per se, as the body can function without it, but because of a lack of estrogen, which the body needs absolutely to function. So there's a need to always have something in the mix that aromatizes. In most cases, testosterone, which is why it's the perfect base.
Seems like common sense but I never really thought of it that way until I read it.
Test is always a must I read something yesterday about weight restricted athletes not using it but im not sure yet where I land on that.
Tren is a compound i still believe that unless getting paid for the way you look no one should be running.
I do see the ratios that your talking about how tren I believe is a 500/500. So it definitely throws off the theory i put forward.
Most cycles though you don't want compounds competing for receptors. So test is definitely a base then plan around it with a balanced cycle.
I think that is a better way for me to say it.
Im also going to look up bill Robert and read his stuff
Have you ever ran a cycle without test? Just curious. I have not.
No I've never ran without test even my earliest cycles were just test i didn't even know about most other compounds.
I wonder if people take the "test is king" mantra too far nowadays. This thread made me laugh:
http://www.steroidology.com/forum/anabolic-steroid-forum/93545-what-did-...
People are scratching their heads trying to figure out why dbol wasn't bloating golden age guys like it does them. Well, duh. The golden age wasn't about running test at stupid high doses. What do you (those guys) think happens when you stack two compounds that aromatize heavily? Why do you think the golden age guys have such nice skin and hair? From the reading I've done, the "test is king" era began in the early 80's. Coincidentally, Franco won the 81 O with the first case of full blown gyno I've heard of. It makes you wonder if the old school 60's and 70's guys had it right and we have it backwards.
Its the first line in that post that tells it they would use all there gear at low doses. They actually trained back then to achieve the win. Mass monsters were created from taking high tet and other compounds in really high doses. Alot of what I've read about say Arnold is it was all about primo and dbol test wasn't king. Also when ziegler created dbol thats all those Olympic power lifters were taking and they were killing it. I believe that over time though the studies started to show how much more test helped in the growth and it was added more and more. Think about it back then those guys didn't get all bloated in the off season they were ripped year round. Thats all that primo kept them growing with the nitrogen retention just by flooding there diets with protien and of course crazy training. Like your saying though I believe also that test wasn't king way back then. I believe that science and studies proved it to be and thats where the test is best came in.
Do you think its backwards?
Look at makwa last cycle all low test and massive gains with primo and dhb also other compounds but still massive gains.