+ 2 Deca, test cyp, and dbol - Need advice.
I am very seriously considering running a deca, test cyp, and dbol cycle.
Here's my stats:
44yo
195lbs
5'9"
18-20% BF
I'm looking to bulk for the immediate future. I've got the diet and lifting down.
Here's my cycle plan:
Week 1-12 500mg Test Cyp weekly
Week 1-10 500mg Deca weekly
Week 1-4 40mg Dbol ED
Week 1-10 Cabaser .5mg weekly
Aromasin 12.5 EOD and adjust as needed
Week 3-12 HCG 250iu weekly
Got plenty of Nolvadex and Clomid for PCT starting week 15.
This is my second cycle. First was Test Cyp 500mg for 12 weeks and Dbol 40mg ED for first 4 weeks. I did well on this except for a good bit of water retention and acne. Gained and kept over 10lbs of lean muscle.
Just wanting to step it up a little so thought of adding Deca to the cycle.
Any advice or suggestions will be appreciated. Thanks guys!
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I've finally got four pics up via my profile taken during my first cycle.
Thanks for the pics. Helps us help you. Your over 20 percent. Not being critical gotta start somewhere. I would stay away from gear for now. Drop that extra baggage with a good diet and cardio. Develop a good food plan. You have some beef under that baggage which is good but I fear your bf percentage will give you 1- bp and estro sides. 2- you will not get results you want throwing you down the rabbit hole of wanting to run more and more oil. I just turned 44. Im going back on cycle this coming week. My avi is last week. So I can check my results at the end of my run. I'm 5'7" 210. Get that diet and training in check and we can help you.
I figured my BF was higher than I stated simply because I guessed...to be honest. I'll work on slimming up. Working on refining my diet based on the responses here. I'm still learning, but I have found in my short time and experience that y'all are exactly right: education and preparation will keep you from aggravation and frustration.
Again, thanks much for the replies!
We are glad you're here, bro, thanks for being receptive and willing to conform and grasp the concept of individualized complex issues that come with utilizing AAS.
I'm finding that eroids is the best resource I have at my disposal. And as far as the complexity of AAS cycling, I've mentioned that to several of my friends. I've said that while growing up, I thought using roids meant a shot in the butt and go. Boy was I mistaken. I've told a couple of people that they have no idea just how complex using AAS really is because in the beginning, I had no idea. But, all the knowledge a person needs can be found in 1000s of research articles across the net and the advice of experienced users here on these forums. I greatly appreciate the help and advice from everyone.
Drop some fat first. I see bp issues in n your future with deca and dbol
Guys, most excellent replies. I ran my first cycle earlier this year and it had its pros and cons. I changed my diet prior to starting the cycle and lost a massive amount of body fat. I was also averaging around 180 total BW...now I'm a solid 192-195.
I've been researching steadily for months, but wanted to hear from experienced cyclers. A book or article can only be so specific, but actual experienced users give me the info I need.
Here's the whole story:
I've never had ANY upper body size or strength. I was very athletic, but due to genetics, I had massive legs with no arms or chest. Could squat whatever you could put on my shoulders, but couldn't bench anywhere near my body weight.
This is something I've always wanted to do. I want size and strength with overall look being secondary.
I've been on a high protein, good fat, complex carb diet for almost a now. I'm suffering from bad bouts of fatigue which I think have to do with massive amounts of caffeine and working straight nights at a very labor intensive job. So eating right is difficult. I eat the right stuff...just not eating but once or twice a day.
My first cycle was Test cyp 250 1ml twice weekly. I listened to a friend who works in the medical field that was supposed to be experienced. He had me pinning in the wrong spot with a massive needle. Leg stayed sore for two weeks. So I did my own research and asked nurse friends. Learned when and how to properly pin. My friend also told me on that moderate amount of test, I wouldn't need an AI. I'm estrogen prone, but not prone to gynecomastia. Water retention so bad my BP goes thru the roof and my calves become sponges. I ran that for 4 weeks until the estrogen sides got to be too much. Shut it down and did two weeks of nolva/clomid. Got AI in along with Dbol. I then ran 10 weeks of test cyp 500mg a week and the Dbol at 40mg (20mg twice daily) for the first four weeks. I took the Aromasin 25mg every other day and still had bad water retention. I gained strength like never before and slept better than I had in years. I had energy and felt great. I did the normal 20 days of PCT with nolvadex and Clomid. Last half of the cycle I was weighing 205...after PCT I dropped to 195...still 10lbs heavier than prior to the cycle and lost quite a bit of fat.
Sorry to ramble on. It's just such a great relief and sense of encouragement to be able to talk to knowledgeable people.
I'll post a pic from the last part of my first cycle after I crop one. Also, two weeks into my first cycle, doc insisted on blood work. He said everything was perfect from hormones to liver to PSA. Now, I have a good friend who runs a lab and has offered to give me full testing any time I want. Her first husband was a body builder and she had been around AAS use for years.
Again...sorry to ramble. Guys, I can't thank you enough for the responses. I don't mind people being blunt and calling me out when it's in my best interest.
I'm gonna research and work on my diet for now.
Thanks again, everyone.
I was the same way when I first started working out seriously about 8 years ago. Couldn't for the life of me bench press, had no chest, skinny arms etc.
I tried many routines, and the one that seemed to help best was to focus very heavily on BACK/biceps and shoulder exercises.
for back : Deadlifts, Lat pulldowns, barbell row, dumbbell rows, pullups (focus on lat pulldowns especially if you have enough strength to do pullups yet), close grip pulldowns etc there are so many great back workouts but you need to develop STRONG lats. Once you have a strong back, the upper body strength will pile on quickly.
For years I could barely benchpress 185 max and I struggled. I switched up my routine to cater more towards developing back in addition to everything else (you need a full body routine). This could mean giving yourself 2 days off gym after back workout and eating very heavy protein during those off days. Or it could mean working out back/biceps twice a week, or you could switch repetitions and sets. One month 3 sets of 12 reps, another month 4 sets of 8, another 5 of 5, then 3 sets of 10 etc. Then try doing drop-sets for a week or 2 if you got buddies at the gym that can grab the weights off the bar for you. Pyramids etc. Lots of ways you can improve your routine. You could spend a whole year just month after month until you really start to build a strong base. For me, once I got the routine and diet and 2 AAS cycles down, I was able to put up 365 pounds on benchpress just 2.5 years after I was at 185-205 as my max benchpress weight. I attribute that mostly to my diet and routine, the AAS helped improve my body's ability to utilize extra consumed protein and that's pretty much it. It also reduces the amount of muscle your body breaks down for energy.
You already have strong legs and can squat heavy. Keep doing what you are doing for squats/legs, but add to your routine whatever you are missing. For me it was chest/lats/shoulders. I had the same problem as you many years ago. Strong legs, calves etc but weak upper body. Make sure to do LOTS of dumbbell chest press both incline and flat. Free weights are important and help the secondary muscles kick in to provide support. That's why I do back and biceps on the same day, since biceps are a secondary muscle to many back workouts. Once you have powerful lats and shoulders, and lots of dumbbell presses, your flat barbell benchpress will be much easier to increase the weight.
You probably don't even need to run a cycle to get some serious gains. You've already proven you have the ability to build a powerful lower body naturally. Just keep working on your routine for 6 months or so to get a well rounded base (no muscle group lacking). I can promise you if you improve your routine and clean up diet, you'll make major gains. Without steroids. Then once you have a strong muscular foundation, diet and routine, the next cycle you run will have HUGE gains.
Like guys in other posts said, Deca and DBOL are very powerful steroids. When used with an extremely high carb and protein diet deca can cause HUGE gains. But to a mediocre diet and routine running deca, your results will be okay but mostly a waste, and will likely disappear about 1-3 months post pct. The side effects can also be dramatic and miserable if caber (REAL DOSTINEX) or prami is not used properly. Especially Deca it's very powerful and will turn your balls off faster than the speed of light (just kidding) but seriously deca cycle can suppress your testosterone production for up to half a year (or more) even after a good PCT because it stays in your system for so long.
I'd say take a good 6 months to a year or so and focus on your diet and workout routine. Then look into running your third cycle ideally Test only or test plus dbol. For your 4th cycle in the future if you do run another I would recommend adding Boldenone if you want to run another anabolic injectable other than test. Wait until you've ran enough test cycles and get the AI usage down before running something like deca/tren.
Aromasin is garbage. It works for many people but it's too difficult to dose and has MUCH MORE side effects than arimidex. For many people 12.5mg/day aromasin isn't enough and 25mg is too much. Or 12.5mg is too much and 6.25mg daily isn't enough... Every other day dosing just doesn't work. Scrap the aromasin and switch to Adex.
In my opinion Arimidex 0.25mg every 2 to 3 days is a great dose to start out at on a regular test cycle 500mg/wk. For more sensitive individuals like yourself you may need to switch to daily dose. For me on a heavy cycle including dbol and deca and high test dose I needed 0.25mg every day. (possibly 0.5mg) For someone like you might need more. Who knows. That's why running test only when beginning AAS cycling helps you gain the knowledge of your own body.
Always run pharmaceutical grade arimidex and PCT, and make sure your testosterone is a GOOD source. This way you will know consistently what dose of AI you need at what dose of test/(AAS that cause estro issues).
Don't run the cheap $20/10ml bottle crap from smaller, cheaper sources. Buy a brand of testosterone that has good reputation and is consistent. Pharmaceutical is ideal if you can find a good deal. Hint - shouldn't be hard here if you just look at the top when going into the sources page. But most importantly is the ancillaries. Those must always be consistent. Then once you know what dose of AI you need at 500mg of test, then you can try other cycle combos. Test/dbol cycle could have completely different side effects (which did for you) and your baseline Ancillary usage will not be enough to control estrogen as opposed to a test only cycle.
During these light test only or test+oral cycles or test/bold cycles, you'll learn everything your body experiences. You already learned you have massive bloating and BP problems. This could be from the improper ancillary usage (Aromasin is crap) or it could be from the dbol. Or it could be the combination. You already learned you do not get gyno. Keep running basic cycles until you know when your estrogen is too high or low based on AI dose/dosing schedule.
For me I knew my estrogen was too high when my nipples get sensitive, I feel tired, blood pressure higher, socks feel tighter.
When my estrogen is too low, joints will feel creaky and I will also be tired, have to pee more often, get anxiety slightly more, etc. I learned this from years of experimenting with dosages and AAS. Thankfully I didn't run Deca in my second cycle. In all honesty I wouldnt recommend deca for beginners or even experts unless they know it's true powers (good and bad).
anyways each cycle you run in the future, only add one new steroid at a time. That way you learn which steroids work well and which ones don't.
For me, Anadrol is the only oral I can completely tolerate nearly side effect free. Long cycle low dose dbol (6 weeks 25mg) is okay too but it always raises blood pressure too much so dbol is mostly a no go for me.
Anavar is more harsh for me than any other oral. Most people consider anavar weak or light on side effects, for me its absolutely intolerable.
Tren is low on side effects for me, but most users can't tolerate it whatsoever.
Deca is HORRIBLE on side effects for me, and requires extreme AI usage, HCG, heavy PCT and still shut down for a whole year after. Deca is a steroid I'll never touch unless I'm on trt for life. It's too powerful and essentially temporarily (1 year) castrates you chemically if not perfectly followed up by ancillary and pct. Even then it still causes too much side effects to be worthwhile.
For you, you may have completely different responses to each steroid. You may tolerate things better/worse than I do. Everyone is different. Each person has their own chemistry and reacts differently to AAS than others.
Sorry to ramble on but I hope you get the gist of what I am trying to say. Bottom line, take your time learning your body. LISTEN TO YOUR BODY. Always have consistent pharma grade Ancillaries/pct, and high grade test. Make a notepad or cycle log and break it down week by week. Write down each day how you feel and have the dosages and everything planned out before cycle. Then you can evaluate what the problem is and learn how to fix it. Running AAS properly, you will learn your body. Bloodwork usually confirms exactly as you predicted once you know your body well enough and how it responds to AAS/AI's.
Everyone has their own chemistry. Learn yours and you will make huge gains and keep them and be extremely knowledgeable in the future. Hopefully you'll be able to pass on this advice to others. But if not, you will at least be equipped with the knowledge to properly run AAS.
Just so you know, I read every word...twice. I can't begin to thank you enough for such a response. It's just such information that has totally changed my way of thinking regarding my diet, my lifting, and my AAS usage.
I recently ordered quite a bit of gear to run the cycle I originally listed. Thanks to you guys here, what my friends don't need will sit on the shelf until I know I'm ready. And this time, I did order Adex instead of Aromasin. Along with Caber. But, I won't be need ingredients either anytime soon. To be honest, I had even ordered deca 500. I was setting myself up for some serious problems. Thanks to guys like you and Mak, the Deca can collect dust unless someone I know just happens to need it. I won't be needing it for quite some time to come.
I have to get my diet right first and foremost. I sat up in bed recently and thought to myself, if I run that cycle right now with the shape I'm in, I'd very possibly hurt myself. That change of thinking is thanks to all of you here.
I really appreciate the pointers on my routine also. I've worked my lats and shoulders harder than any other muscle groups and was already beginning to suspect what you have confirmed for me. I have broad shoulders and started to think of my back as my foundation so was working lats pretty hard. I believe you are exactly right.
And in my many occupations over the years, the process of elimination was always an often used tool. So, again, you are absolutely right on how I should plan my cycles for the future. When I'm ready, I believe I will just think of my AAS usage as clean slate and start with the tried and true 500mg test cyp per week. No Dbol. No NPP. No EQ. No drol. Just simple cycle to establish a baseline for myself. Then after PCT and plenty of time between, do it again so as to compare to the first cycle of test cyp only to back up the baseline. Plenty of time for the "hard" gear when I'm ready physically, mentally, and have the knowledge to do such cycle right.
Again, I can't thank you enough for the response and the info. Thanks!!
Hope you didn't end up typing all that on your phone. lol
Thanks for.the the history. Stay on top of your Lipid Profile and Thyroid Panel. Welcome to Eroids....glad you're here
I agree, maybe work on getting bf down a bit to 12%. No offense, but I think you are unlikely to achieve the desired outcome and look you're going for if you did that cycle right now. I'd recommend intervals on a bike to quickly drop some fat- it'll lessen the impact on joints while jumpstarting your metabolism. Then if you still end up wanting to run that cycle, you may wanna consider running test at a higher mg than deca to minimize sides from the deca. 19-nor sides can get pretty ugly sometimes so do plenty of research on it make sure you know what you're getting into.
Considering the fact that you CAN get BW, can you post the post-cycle BW, so we can see how you recovered from your first cycle? Also, if possible, we"d like to see your pre-cycle BW before you start your second cycle. Can you post an unidentifiable pic?
Query Harris Benedict Equation and calculate your BMR with and without activity.
I can see a more realistic LBM for you of about 12-15%, in about 9-12 months utilizing cardio, diet modification and lifting regimens to meet your goals.
Like what was mentioned below, the direction you're headed for this posted cycle will present some major issues. The issues have to be acknowledged and dealt with prior to cycling.
Here's a relative grams/day macros that may help you, right now, by incorporating this into your current daily cal/mac plan:
285g/150-200g/100g (p/c/f).....
A daily caloric intake for maintainence is 1823 for you based off your stats and with activity it is 2825 calories per day.
You need to get a food scale and weigh your foods after they are cooked. Right now the majority of your macros needs to be lean meats, complex carbs, and good fats. Look up your blood type, and see which foods your body benefits from. Then incorporate these foods into your daily cal/mac plan.
Plus 2 for coming here first and getting advice on these compounds and cycle...
Solid advise here +2.
He may even be able to do HIIT and drop carbs to 75-100g/day to meet some pre-cycle goals, too.
I don't want you to take this the wrong way because I'm only here to help. Your body fat percentage is too high to be running a cycle, especially one that includes Deca or dbol. But the fact is you also don't have enough muscle mass to be running a cycle either.
I'm not saying any of this to be a jerk. I just want you to run a cycle the safest way possible. I'm your exact height and had at least 20 to 25 pounds more muscle on my frame before I started my cycle. On top of that I made sure my body fat was at 10-12% so at 18-20% you would need to cut down to at least 185 minimum before you wanted to run this. But of course when you do that math you're probably 20-30 pounds underweight before you should run a cycle.
The last thing you want to do is run a cycle with two of the harshest compounds and at the end of it look like you're all natural, in fact people will probably question whether you even work out or not to be honest with you. So is putting deca or dbol in your system worth it to look all natural at the end? No, definitely not.
You need to work on a serious diet plan that will involve changing your lifestyle. Then after you've dropped 10 pounds of fat or more, you can adjust your diet to start bulking and putting on muscle. Then after you do that and you put on more muscle I would run a cycle.
As you're on this diet plan continue to do more research about the cycle you're about to run. I would personally never run hCG for that long. Most guys do a month on a month off throughout the cycle. I would not recommend running it for 10 weeks straight. While on Deca you're also going to need more caber than you're planning on taking. Personally I use .5 e3d not once per week.
Definitely needs to lower BF first and I sure wouldn't be running a 19nor for a second cycle.
Well done. Keeping it real +2.
Focus on diet rather than compounds.
Also, I get free blood work so will be having that done every two weeks starting just prior to starting the cycle.