Advice on Second Cycle
Hi All,
I've been overweight up until I hit the age of 34 and then changed it around and am easily in the best shape of my life at the moment, though not entirely where I want to be. It took a couple of years of learning in terms of training and nutrition but I'm well equipped now.
I'm a few weeks away from hitting 40 and looking to start a second cycle. My first cycle was a rather mild course of Test E at 250mg/week for about 20 weeks and I managed to add about 4-5kg to my frame which improved my physique.
My current stats are:
Height: 180cm (5' 11")
Weight: 90 kg (198lb)
Bodyfat: 12.1% (by DEXA)
Ideally I'd like to be about 95-100kg in the 10-12% bodyfat range so I'm thinking I need to add some lean muscle. I prefer going slow and steady as opposed to just packing on mass quickly.
I play a variety of competitive sports so want to maintain my current fitness and mobility levels.
Any advice would be great.
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Second cycle, you could bump things up a bit. I would run 10 week cycle.
Test c or e 500-600mgs/weekly
Eq 400 mgs/weekly
Proviron 50 mg /daily
I always found it very beneficial to include proviron into a cycle. This compounds will have multiple functions that can give maximal gains with a moderate amount (really any amount) of juice. Proviron will lower SHBG which will keep these exogenous hormones in a more free state to be utilized. Also, like shreds777 says keeping your estro in check is also important. Proviron has anti-estrogen effects as well! This can keep water retention at bay and keep other side effects minimal.
Here is an interesting article on proviron. I use this even off cycle too.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2892728/
I agree with the test and the proviron but not the eq. Eq would need to be ran for 14 weeks minimum. Preferably 16 weeks. Nothing happens really for the first 10 weeks with eq.
500 test with proviron is more than enough for a second cycle.
500 test would be better at this stage with proper oestrogen control.
Thanks for the feedback, however in my opinion and experience with eq things do happen within 10 week. Also keep in mind, eq keeps working within the body for quite some time after injection. For example, at week 7 the eq injection will be released up to week 10, week 8 injection up until week 11, week 9 up until week 12 and week 10 injection released up until week 13. So even though you stop injections at 10 weeks the compound is still working. He's looking for slow and steady gains. I've personally ran eq for much shorter time than 10 weeks with results because i like switching compounds and esters every 4-6 weeks. Same thing goes for deca but i much rather eq over deca because the 19-nor sides effects i don't like.
Long, long Ester length on eq. I get what your saying but this is a second cycle so you could do a lot in 10 weeks with test and provi. I think any gains made through eq would be negligible after these compounds unless ran for longer.
The other problem is his age. Eq will keep releasing for ages, keeping him shut down and at 40 it could make recovery harder and his PCT less effective.
Plus he would be adding 2 new compounds in his second run.
Test @ 400 with 50ed provi is my call, for 10-12 weeks.
AnonYour first cycle was a pretty moderate dose. I think just increasing your Test dosage for your 2nd cycle is a good plan. Make sure you have an AI on hand and PCT.
Some guys may not agree with this, but I believe in taking a preemptive approach when it comes to estro so I think running a low dose AI starting 2 weeks into your cycle is a good idea. Some guys get high estro on just 100mg a week of Test C for TRT and then prescribed Anastrozole/Arimidex by their doctor. I don't believe in chancing it or waiting for high estro symptoms to start an AI.
Wish I could upvote you to infinity for this.
Preemptive approach is something I wish I really understood when I was starting out. Now, after 3 cycles shit is clicking and time is ticking. Im one of those guys whom you spoke of that will have a high estro spike from taking as little as 170mg of test a week.
I see most of you veterans preach, "get an AI and PCT on hand before you cycle." This should be like the first thing anyone sees when entering this site.
I do have one question, if someone was to develop high estro symptoms, would it be "sound" to lower the amount of test they are doing and increase their AI? My logic is if you reduce the amount of receptors that bind and aromatize, you should be able to level the playing field? Correct?
I'm also wanting to pick your brains about something else but will pm you if that's okay.
AnonIf you are estro sensitive then do lots of research and be picky with what you run.
I'm not gonna tell you what someone should do if they develop high estro symptoms.
But I will tell you what I would do, which is based on medical research published online, my personal experience, and anecdotal experiences of others.
What I would do would depend on how bad the high estro symptoms were.
If it was a gyno flare up I would start taking the Nolvadex I always have on hand at 40mg a day immediately, 20mg in the morning and 20mg at night. I would take 40mg of Nolva a day like this for 3 days to 3 weeks depending on the severity. Somewhere in that time I would hope to see some improvement, and then I would lower the dose to 20mg every night for 3 weeks to 3 months depending on the severity. I have 2 reasons for this protocol: 1, because Nolva is going to block the estrogen receptors and prevent further growth of the gyno without crashing estro. 2, Nolva has been studied and medically prescribed to treat gyno with a fairly high success rate, and some medical studies easily found online used similar protocols. You should research this yourself instead of just listening to me or anyone else.
As far as my AI goes, I like Arimidex because it is a milder AI than Aromasin or Letro. And I have enough experience with Arimidex to not get estro rebound from it because I taper it slowly and have Nolva on hand. I would increase my AI dosage immediately if I developed high estro symptoms. How much I would increase my AI again depends on the severity of the high estro symptoms. But I would not want to take more than 1mg of adex eod because more than that is enough to crash my estro from personal experience. I don't like to take more than .5mg of adex eod.
If I developed high or low estro symptoms I would catch them fast and know how to handle them. It's a very individual thing. What works for me does not work for everyone.
Don't pick my brain, pick the forums. Educate yourself.
Thanks
I have some Aromasin on hand if need be. What's a recommended time to take bloods during a cycle to check the Estrogen levels and then decide to add a little AI in to the mix.
For instance, could I check bloods 4 weeks in and then say add a little AI if I notice my E2 levels peaking too high?
Anon"What's a recommended time to take bloods during a cycle to check the Estrogen levels and then decide to add a little AI in to the mix."
Did you read what I said? I told you I believe in taking a preemptive approach when it comes to estro so I think running a low dose AI starting 2 weeks into your cycle is a good idea.
"For instance, could I check bloods 4 weeks in and then say add a little AI if I notice my E2 levels peaking too high?"
I don't know.
You're asking me how to do shit a way I don't believe in doing it. I don't wait 4 weeks before taking an AI. I don't wait for blood results to start an AI either. Use the search bar dude and find answer to your questions.
Thanks for your help dude. Sorry, I just realised what I actually asked. My question was really to ascertain if I needed to do a mid cycle blood test to adjust anything.
Thanks for the info guys, much appreciated.
But crashing your estro with too much AI can be just as bad.
It can be a fine line to walk for a rookie.
AnonI wouldn't say crashed estro is as bad as gyno. And when guys get a hint of gyno they often crash their estro trying to cure it anyway.
Just to confirm, is 16 weeks ok for the 400mg/test-e cycle or should I keep it at 12 weeks?
16 weeks with a longer ester should be fine. If you were jump starting the cycle with test prop or an oral, then 12 weeks would be wiser.
Thanks for the input guys. I'll try bump the test to 2 x 200mg injections weekly for 12-16 weeks and see how I go.
On my first cycle of 250mg weekly I didn't use any AI during the cycle, should I be using some on 400mg weekly?
For the use of Ai only blood returns can tell you if it is needed or not. After 400mg of Eq it's really light. I would have gone on 600mg anyway
And take a blood test to check your hematocrit. Donate blood if it is too high. I do not know the drugs you need but aspegic 250mg for children in Ed to thin the blood in case. Planning ahead is better than having blood clots
Same opinion as other members already see by slightly increasing testo in the next cycle see how your body reacts (mounted E2 for example) I see that you want to add equipoise do you know the risks that little boldo engenders?
Thanks will do. In regards to Boldo, I only know what I've read about the compound in various sources and from friends I know that have been taking it for some time. They advised a 200mg Test/400mg EQ cycle as a mild cycle to try if I wanted to add a compound to the mix.
The above is a mild cycle but I’d stick to test for now. Eq cycles are very long and you don’t want to be shut down for 6 months at nearly 40 years old. Your balls may struggle to re start. It could land you in the trt camp prematurely.
You gained 4/5 KG in the first cycle. Did you lose those pounds? Did you keep them?
Did you check your oestradiol (also other values) before, during and after the cycle? Did you do a proper PCT?
Yes I managed to maintain those pounds, I done a 4 week PCT consisting of Clomid, Novaldex and HCG and my bloods were checked throughout the process.
I finished my PCT about 12 weeks ago and plan on starting the next cycle in about 12 weeks. I did a blood test 4 weeks after my PCT and everything was in order. I'll be doing another test just before I start this cycle.
Was it so necessary to add HCG (in PCT) to the first cycle, with those gears at those dosages?
Could you publish a screenshot of the results?
It is as marathon not as sprint.
2nd cycle,.... why not repeat your first cycle, maybe 400mg/week of test E or cyp and shorten it to 16 weeks.
Thanks mate, 400mg test E sounds good. If I can replicate the last cycles results I'll be more than happy.
Definitely one of the options I was considering. The other was an EQ/Test cycle.
Molinin302KMC just gave you the best advice you're going to get. Kudos to you for keeping your first cycle reasonable and safe. Its time to bump that dosage up and see how you do, but not time to start adding other compounds. If you gained 10lbs or so last cycle as you said, I want you to go to go to your local grocery. London broil is pretty lean so look at a package of london broil. Now imagine 10lbs of that London broil. Now imagine your heart having to pump blood through all that meat you added in a period of 16 weeks. Take your time big guy, It'll come. Best wishes
Lol I see your point, thanks bro. I'll take it slow ;)