+ 1 Advice Needed on Adjusting Cycle
Hey all,
So after altering my cycle at the 11th hour before starting, I (somehow) miscalculated the amount of gear I would need. I have done one cycle before this about 18 months ago, but it was really just a gentle TRT dose that I wanted to experiment with, to see how I reacted etc. I guess because it went so smoothly, I got a little arrogant in planning my second cycle; hence the oversight.
Anyway, so the idea with this one was:
1-12: Test-E 500mg p/w
1-10: Deca Durabolin 200mg p/w
And the schedule to maintain this weekly dosage was:
Tuesdays: 0.85ml Test-E 300 (250mg)
Fridays: 1ml Deca/Test Blend (200/250mg)
Obviously the blend will last 10 weeks, but the pure Test-E will not last 12 weeks - probably more like 11 at best, considering measurements are never perfect. I am currently in week 3.
The reason for my concern is that I had wanted to run Deca for the majority of the cycle, but due to my silly error, it will basically be the whole cycle, and I would much rather keep the Test going for a good few weeks after the Deca is finished. In fact the more I have learned about Deca, the more tempted I am to get some more Test and run it out to 14-16 weeks. I know 200mg is more of a 'therapeutic' dose, and is at the lowest end of the spectrum as far as risks and sides are concerned, but I want to minimise those as much as possible, given some of the horror stories about Deca.
I will say that it is quite remarkable how many 'reputable' AAS websites recommend Deca for novices, promoting the benefits and downplaying the risks.. Unfortunately, by the time I had found eroids and looked through the forums here, I had already started my cycle. Had I known what I know now, I might not have chosen it in the first place, but even a few weeks in - I must say that I have noticed something of an increase in my muscular endurance and even some mild relief from joint pains etc - so I may as well make the most of it.
So what are your recommendations? Is it advisable to run Test only for a few weeks after ceasing Deca, or is it fine to run Deca for 10 weeks and Test for 11 weeks? Obviously I have no problem running Test a bit longer if required, but if this doesn't serve any real purpose in negating the sides from Deca, then I guess it's just increased risk for nothing? Is it even worth it for a novice to use a low dose of Deca for 10 weeks?
I am open to all suggestions on adjusting this cycle or sticking with it. I do want to get the most out of it, but I want to minimise the risks and sides as best I can.
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You need a decent cal/mac plan of nutrient dense foods that include complex carbohydrates with a low-glycemic index and lean animal proteins.
Please share your current diet. Do you know your BMR? You can use Harris Benedict Equation and calculate your BMR with and without activity. This will give you an idea what your calories need to be in relation to your TDEE.
Hypothetical macros for you, since you're still on the juice would be: 300g/150-225g/100g. Calories, I'd say 3500/day. Your maintainence is 2016 cal/d and with activity lifting 4-5 days out the week allowing time to recover and grow would be 3125 cal/d. The 3500 could be possibly increased slowing, depending on how you do, as well as the carbs in the macros. Imo, i still think you should decrease your Test dose secondary to 18% BF to at least help control some of the aromatization. If you want to hit 14%, I'd say incorporating some moderate cardio 1-2 per week wouldn't be bad...say 15-20 minutes working to hit your target heart rate. I see you at 170-180 lbs at 14%...can't really tell how you'll do...I know you're gonna keep juicing, bro...it's a given
Can you post an unidentifiable pic when it's convenient?
So you don't have an AI that is in your plan, currently, and you're injecting 500mg of Test per week with 18%BF? Are you having any signs or symptoms of elevated estrogen?
Yes. I am on a low carb, low sugar diet, though my circumstances dictate sharing a lot of meals, so I cant always eat exactly what I want, nor have I gotten round to counting all the calories in my diet - just sticking with some basic rules and going with what works thus far, which it does. I focus on complex carbs with no wheat or gluten, as I am becoming more intolerant to it with age. Gluten is what causes me to bloat up and retain water the most - I have a totally different figure off vs on.
Breakfast is a combination of the following, depending on the day: Oatmeal, rice bread, avocados, tomatoes, fruit and veggie smoothie with bananas, mango, spinach, apple, ginger, kale, blueberries, whey, creatine, glutamine, spirulana, turmeric, numerous seeds, quinoa, and kelp. Occasionally chicken breast if I've been really pushing it to the limit.
Lunch is typically a combination of chicken/beef kidney beans, lentils, beetroot, tomatoes, onions, brown rice, potato, avocado, sometimes a salad.
Dinner is either chicken/beef/fish/lamb with a whole host of veggies. Mostly onions, peppers, mushrooms and broccoli. Never eat starch like potatoes or rice on the evening. Sometimes all this will be replaced with a Caesar salad - low fat. Eat lots of chilli, garlic, ginger and tumeric.
Snacks are (post workout) protein shakes, vegetable juice, fruit, nuts. Don't add sugar to anything, don't add salt to anything. Don't eat chocolates, deserts, or sweets at all, though we do have xmas coming up... All of the leafy greens are home grown and are picked fresh every day, as are the herbs used in cooking, plus many of the fruits.
I would guess that at 14% BF I would clock in at about 180, though thats an estimate as I haven't been that light since I was a teenager. However I agree that this is what would be about right for me.
As for Aromatisation - as I said, I do have Arimidex on hand, and I did start taking 0.25mg EoD during the first week, but was strongly advised on here to wait until actual symptoms appeared. Felt like I had some kinda reaction to it, and felt better when I stopped taking it. Approaching the end of week 3 now, and have had no signs of Estro yet - water retention seems under control, no sensitivities, feeling leaner by the day. My understanding is that I am likely to start feeling it from next week onwards, but no signs yet.
As for Cardio - yes, I have been doing approx 25-30mins 5 times a week. I have two routes that I run, between 1-2 miles, but both up and down extremely steep hills, so it feels more like 5 miles. Heart rate is up around 130-150 the whole time. I feel this is probably sufficient, as any more than this would probably retard my muscle growth.
Apparently, my BMR is 2025 calories a day.
I guess for me its trying to balance the weight loss and cardio with the muscle growth and getting enough fuel. Again, not necessarily looking to get huge, but do want to increase muscle mass somewhat.
Will share a picture shortly, though you guys will probably scoff..
As long as you're honest with no bullshit filler talk you'll find respect here. Gotta crawl before you can walk. Take the advice on here and run with it. Good luck
Thank you for your history and detailed info. No scoffs from me, bro....look forward to seeing the pic and you making further progress...
Thanks man. Will get onto the pic (after xmas).
One further question which is really important to me right now - I have read a lot of contradictory information on HCG - some say take it during the cycle, some say take it after, during the first 2 weeks of PCT etc. I haven't gotten any yet, as this was another one of those subjects where the junk websites said don't bother unless you're a regular user, and I recovered so smoothly from my first Test cycle.
I am in process of ordering more Test right now, and want to know whether I should get some HCG to incorporate; during or post cycle. By the time it gets here, I will be into week 5, and some people say don't bother unless you start it by week 4. I did experience some aching in the testes during the first couple of weeks, so pretty sure I am well on the way to being shut down already.
What is your advice. Should I get some, and if so - how should use it?
Hope you have a good xmas. =)
Include a Lipid Profile in your BW.
Your history indicates a prior cycle with no PCT. You are back on AAS, too, after just 18 months. Although your LH/FSH are in range, the LH could be a little higher, so this go-around with PCT will more than likely be a greater challenge, especially with recovery and only using tamoxifen.
I don't see anything wrong with incorporating hCG into your cycle. It could actually make your recovery easier, but you need to add clomid in combination with tamoxifen for PCT. That's the standard because it works!
There are several methods on dosing and administering hCG. Remember it can elevate estrogen and you become desensitized to it. With your current situation, you might benefit by starting the hCG the last week of your cycle. I like 500iu e3-4 days, which keeps the dose low and spaces the frequency out. I've seen hCG used at 1000iu eod x10d, but, i believe, in my opinion, that would be too much. Just make sure your off hCG one week before starting PCT and keep a steady dosing schedule with your AI.
There are several other methods for using hCG, and only over time, will you determine which ones work for you and for what reason and why, as you continue your AAS journey...
Also - getting back to the Deca issue. I stopped taking it immediately after you guys advised against it, so in total I only ran 200mg for 3 weeks, and have since been running Test-E only @500mg for the past 3 weeks.
Is this still likely to cause additional problems in recovery? My understanding is that the above would typically constitute a 'low dose' of Deca for a 'short period', and given that my total cycle length will only be 9 weeks, it is my understanding that my HPTA system will bounce back easier compared to a longer cycle..?
I have definitely learned that I was ill-prepared to run a cycle or deal with the consequences, and that I didn't take the risks as seriously as I should have. I am really, really hoping that I can recover and get back to some semblance of 'normal' Test production as quickly as possible now.
Going from what I have told you - what do you think about this? Bear in mind that I do seem to have a natural propensity to bounce back pretty easily, judging from my first experience. Any advice or comment is welcome.
Thanks for your advice man, but I have more comments and questions;
As fate would have it, I will now be stopping my cycle early, at 9 weeks.. Fell in love with a very special woman over the holidays, and am now moving overseas to be with her in mid-March - so this means I have to be off the juice and through the PCT before I get on the plane. I can't still be juicing when I join her again, nor can I be shut down in the early stages of recovery; so I gotta get this whole process wrapped up by the beginning of March.
I loved the benefits of the Test (the libido, confidence and muscle tone really paid off!), but I have learned that it's not something I can commit to properly at this stage of my life, with all the travel and uncertainty that the future now holds. The 'enhanced' libido that I got from the Test had actually become a real problem for us anyway, as I had to fight off a raging hard-on every time she touched me, and actually experienced my first case of PE in the early going, which was highly embarrassing.. She commented a few times that my preoccupation with sex was somewhat excessive, and so having a libido that high was actually more discomfort than it was worth. These are the consequences that never seem to get talked about!
Anyway - my plan is to run the cycle for another 2 weeks, and on the last week start a course of HCG @ 500iu E3D. I would then run this for 10-14 days, and stop it 7 days before I am due to start the PCT, which would consist of Nolvadex and Clomid for 4 weeks. This would mean I would be finished with the PCT about a week before flying out in mid-March.
Does this sound right to you - and am I correct in assuming that I should continue to run Arimidex until I start the PCT? I am assuming that I should cease using it once I start with the Nolvadex and Clomid?
Did you get any precycle bloods done?
Also, for what it's worth; I have been feeling fantastic since starting. Only in week 3, but already got more energy and feel my zest for life coming back. Muscle endurance is definitely up - can push through the burn and increase my reps much easier than before. Libido is through the roof. Feel like an animal sometimes.
Ps; seeing as I will have to purchase some more gear, would you recommend sticking with one brand, or is it OK to have two different brands? The reason I ask is because one of the brands I have definitely seems to be stronger than the other.
Be consistent and get more of the same kind from the same place, imo...
Yes I did. The hormone section was as follows.
FSH: 4.7 U/L ( 2-10 )
Prolactin: 104 mU/L ( 45-375 )
Testosterone: 12.6 nmol/L ( 9-30 )
LH: 1.6 U/L ( 1-10 )
According to my Doctor, these levels were all 'normal'. Obviously the consensus is that anything above 300 ng/dl is within the 'normal' range for a healthy adult male, with anything below 250 generally being an indicator for TRT - and so because my levels 363 ng/dl - he did not support any further action or investigation.
However my research indicates that these levels would typically be comparable to the levels of an elderly man in his 70's or 80's - rather than a 32 year old man with a healthy diet and lifestyle. One of the reasons I did my first 'therapeutic' cycle of Test was because I noticed my libido and recovery diminishing rapidly as I approached 30. Strangely enough, I genuinely felt like my levels remained higher following the cycle, though this could be down to any number of factors.
I do intend to get my levels checked again approximately half way through my cycle, and then again postcycle, though I would obviously have to come clean with my Doctor, which I am not enthused about. I may do it privately and see if I can interpret the results myself.
Sorry for rambling on and on guys - just trying to be as transparent as possible so I can learn as much as I can here.
RustyhookerYour cycle idea is crap.
His BF% Is 18. He'll need to come down before cycling, imo....and then he needs consultation on dose adjustment for aromatization and AI use.
LBM=152 lbs. (James)
So, ball park figure...how many websites are there recommending nandrolone decanoate for novices? I'd like to read that information. Do you have a link? Thanks.
We're glad you're here. Take the advice of the members in your forum and stop the nandrolone. You have no mention of AI, DA, or for that much ANY plan that represents what you need to know to do what you're doing. Thanks for being honest.
I came across a website once that says tren ace is good for a first cycle and explains in depth that people say it's not that he says it is I was like dang have a newbie pin ed or eod lining his own pockets I take it
Yep, it's a money ploy....no holistic approach what so ever...
You would be suprised how many websites, forums and write ups reccomend deca for novices, ive read it a tonne of times.
All my time is spent on here, so I didn't know that this info existed. Thanks.
Yea its bs, mostly euro/ russian bro.
I've seen plenty as well, they're all shit beginner ready to go cycles. Plus most never add caber. It's really a marketing ploy to take more $$ from inexperience users
Agree with ya on the ploy to take more $$...
Yes, this is what first got me really suspicious about taking Deca. So many of the 'recommendations' for beginners were basically just press releases for Deca, almost as if they'd been published by pharma companies or something. All about the positives and nothing about the negatives. It was enough to sway me over long enough to buy it though, so imagine the same is true for many beginners.
I have some real suspicions about some of these websites.
RustyhookerSo you're ready to cosign the mouth on a twig up top?
No fukn way mate, was stating about how it is on the internet stating it, im not co signing or giving any advice to the op atall, i read it and cringed.
RustyhookerHigh five bro. Some of the other sites make me cringe. Lol
I work with a guy(early 20s) or so...him and his little workout crew have been convinced that Deca or Dbol is an absolute must to stack with test. They are all one or two cycles deep. The guy i work with ran out of test in October and has been running Deca SOLO ever since...
Drop the deca altogether. Complete overkill for what is really your first cycle.
What BF% are you. How long have you been training. What are your goals.
Dump the Deca. Recovery is going to be a bitch and you are way unprepared to run it.
Evidently so. This is why I posted this thread in the first place - upon learning some actual truth about it, I started to suspect I was out of my depth.
Will continue with Test only. Thanks.
Test will provide you with all you need in the form of AAS for your first cycle.
UPDATE: But you need to get your BF% down before using any AAS, and i see what you're working with and where you're at on your cycling...
^^^^^^this! And for future reference you need to give consideration to your ester lengths when stacking or you may end up running PCT too soon or too late - which is certainly going to happen here if you continue. Here is a post I made on it:
https://www.eroids.com/forum/steroids-qa/anabolic-steroids/check-your-es...
There are other issues but given where you are just drop the deca as Pasta has said and do more research and ask questions here BEFORE starting a cycle so we can get you squared away.
Thanks for all the help guys. No thanks for the acerbic comments which don't offer any actual help, but there's always that one guy, right?
I should have mentioned, I do have Arimidex on hand for when I need it, and I also have Nolvadex for PCT, with a plan of 40/40/20/20 - the idea was to run this for weeks 14-18. Initial research suggested HCG wasn't necessary at my stage of the game, but I am prepared to start running it, as the gravity of my choices is now starting to become apparent.
My BF is approx 18%, with a post cycle goal of 14% or less.
You are all correct in asserting that I am basically clueless though. It seems that after a successful bro-science experiment and some unrefined google searches, one starts believing they know 'enough'.. First cycle was so smooth and I didn't do AI's or PCT at all - no sides and felt great afterwards. Dumb luck and shitty websites are great at engendering a false sense of confidence. Its no wonder so many people fuck their shit up. Again - do a google search on novice cycles and see how many of them suggest Deca for beginners WITHOUT mentioning the sides! I did consider Dianabol, but I don't like the idea of Orals at all.
Suffice to say, after doing some more research, I had already become uncomfortable about the notion of Deca, as I am not looking to bulk on the level of most AAS users, and I do not like what I am reading about the sides at all. You gotta at least give me credit for realising I made a bad choice in messing with Nandrolone. The more I read, the more I realised that this was for serious builders and pro athletes, not for amateurs like me.
I am just trying to build some lean muscle and burn a bit of fat, and had been experiencing a lot of difficulty in getting any muscle growth despite a good diet and training 5-6 times a week. Yes, my training regime, technique, and diet are also being improved too. One of the biggest benefits is the energy though - getting my libido back, feeling physically strong and fit, enthusiastic, positive etc etc. Can't put a price on those.
But, I do not wanna fuck my shit up, so since you guys recommend stopping the Deca, I will stop it. From now on it will be 500mg Test E only. Am I likely to experience any sides after 3 weeks of Deca at 200mg?
Most likely not, although the hormone has been injected, a level has not been stabilized. Individuals are different, however, and further bloodwork (prolactin/E2) would be the option to follow up on if you did experience any signs, or symptoms of using a 19-nor.
Sorry thanks for answering this. I must have missed it. And yes agreed I wouldn't think so but follow up blood work as part of the normal blood work to be run on cycle would be a good idea to confirm no issue or make adjustments.
Hey, no problem, bro...I kinda got stuck in here analyzing his forum and trying to figure out what the best route is for him to take, meet his goals, keep him happy, and most of all...keep him as safe as possible....it's still early and I'm hoping my brain is functioning well today...