posted Wed, 12/04/2013 - 11:34
2794
HCG and PCT
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Sup fellas! Got another hcg question in regards to pct.
My cycle was a simple 14 week test e cycle @500mg/week. I did not use hcg on cycle I know a lot of people do, and I now know I should have. But after my last cycle I wanted to see how I'd fair without it. And well, im gettin nervous lol. This is only my 2nd cycle so its not like I run gear often or for long periods of time.
So my question is to get my testes back up and firing should I do an hcg blast during pct? Or is this out dated?
I am starting week 2 of pct today
Clomid
Arimidex
I do have nolva but after much research Ive decided to leave it out for this one.
Thanks for any info or advice!
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AnonYes, throw it in. If you think your not recovering.
HCG mimics LH and thus is suppressive. You should not run it during PCT.
And why did you decide not to use Nolvadex?
AnonDo you have real world experiance or are you just saying what you read? STOP confusing people, i have real world experiance with hcg,hmg,clomid,lhrh, failed pct's where clomid and nolva did jack shit and only hcg brought my balls out from hideing. Your correct in that it is suppressive somewhat but hcg can and should be used as part of pct if SERMs are not working. EX......
WEEK 1 100mg clomid 120 torem
WEEK 2 Same dosage but your pct is not going how it as in the past. Your balls are still pulled up in your body and have not droped. You feel tired and moody all day. This means your pct is failing. At this point hcg should be shot at 1000iu for 5 days ir 500iu for 10. Once this is completed SERM's should continue until you feel recovered.
PS: Im not trying to be a dick, i just dont want guys to get confused and think they cant use it as a PART of pct IF NEEDED.
I appreciate your last comment. I know you're not trying to be a dick. You think I am giving wrong information and you disagree with what I say so you are speaking out. I respect that.
So to answer your question I do have a lot of personal experience with these compounds, as well as working with other people and these compounds.
1st of all you should be using hCG during your cycle then your testes won't get shut down and you won't have the problems that you had "where clomid and nolva did jack shit ". So you suppress your testes and expect them to just jump right back after one week? Doesn't work like that. So had you not messed up in the 1st place by not using hCG during your cycle your testes would have functioned (provided they were functioning before) and you would have had better success with Nolvadex and Clomid.
So now you are in week 2. So you stop your PCT (based on the following comment "Once this is completed SERM's should continue until you feel recovered" ) "you do HCG at 1000iu for 5 days ir 500iu for 10" which again suppresses your pituitary. And then you continue on with your PCT without HCG.
So you basically started recovering your pituitary then suppressed the recovery of your pituitary and then restarted. You see how this is counterproductive.
"Your correct in that it is suppressive somewhat" It is not somewhat suppressive, hCG is totally suppressive. HCG mimics LH so when it is introduced into the body LH production grinds to a halt. As a matter of fact, this is one of the ways that is used to catch athletes when they use HCG for doping purpose.
AnonYou keep sayingsuppress the pituitary, its aready supressed from your cycle. If SERMS arnt restarting your hpta you need something to kick it in gear. Doing the same thing (SERMS) with no results but expecting different results is crazy; thats is the definition of crazy. Your point I understand, understand my point or try to. If people didnt use hcg on cycle and they are atrophied and shut down if serms dont work they never will unless you kick the hpta back on by using hcg.
" unless you kick the hpta back on by using hcg"
hCG doesn't turn your HPTA on. It turns it OFF. That's what I'm trying to explain to you. HCG helps restore function in your testes. It does that, because it mimics LH, which stimulates the testes to produce testosterone.
Because the body sees that it has LH , it won't produce LH.
But I do understand the point that you are trying to make. That if you are not responding to SERMs that you stop and prime your testes with HCG. That is definitely one option and a valid one.
AnonWe will agree to disagree then.
AnonI actually understood that and what your saying already. Hcg does shut off your Lh production cause it mimicks it, i get it and have gotten it. What im saying is if your HPTA is not working or restarting from SERMS and pct for whatever reason HCG can and should be used to mimick the bodys own production so at least your HPTA loop starts running even if its only synthetically. This way its at least running and eventually when somewhen gets the response they need from Hcg being increased testicular volum, oily skin, and a feeling of well being they can drop the Hcg and start SERMS in the hopes that Their HPTA loop will continue to run because now that there is an abondence if testosterone from the hcg treatment the introduction of SERMS will hopefully fool the body into producing more testosterone since SERMs mimick but also block the function of estrogen the body should be like oh crap, ive got way more estrogen the testosyerone and therefor kick into gear on its own the production of natural testosterone to even the ratio of estrogen to testosterone in the body.
"What im saying is if your HPTA is not working or restarting from SERMS and pct for whatever reason HCG can and should be used to mimick the bodys own production so at least your HPTA loop starts running even if its only synthetically"
What you're saying won't start your HPTA. What you're doing in this step is priming your testes with synthetic LH so that when you stop hCG they are primed to receive LH that will hopefully be produced by the pituitary when SERMS are introduced.
"Their HPTA loop will continue to run because now that there is an abondence if testosterone from the hcg treatment the introduction of SERMS will hopefully fool the body into producing more testosterone since SERMs mimick but also block the function of estrogen the body should be like oh crap"
At this point your HPTA is not running and the testosterone that is being produced because of the hCG does not indicate a recovered HPTA. That's why you stop hCG, let the compound clear and then start SERMs.
AnonI never said it implied a recovered HPTA.
AnonArgh, theres no reasoning with you sir:(
I apologize if I caused you any stress or grief. As that is not my intention.
AnonNo worries, it was a good debate.
AnonIt was simply an example. Yes hcg should be used on cycle to prevent atrophy and yes it is somewhat supressive. My only point is if pct is failing, and your tired, moody, with your balls pulling a disppearing act HCG should be used to jumpstart your balls. Once you have the desired reaction being balls hanging and more full you should stop hcg and continue with SERMS. From personally experiance its what works and people shouldnt be afriad to try something new if what their doing is not giving them their desired result.
You keep saying that hCG is somewhat suppressive. You have no idea how suppressive it is, one-shot that's all it takes to suppress LH production. That's the point I'm trying to get across. If it was somewhat suppressive it would be a different story.
So in that case, nobody should take SERMs, because they are some what suppressive to, right? I'm glad I finally understand now.
What would you rather recover from, an hcg blast and SERMs, or 14 weeks of shooting anabolic androgenic steroids? Your trading one really long and strong suppression, for another suppression that is shorter and MUCH easier to handle. In the scheme of things, the suppression from hcg and SERMs aren't even worth mentioning
Where did I say not to take SERM's. SERMs are a must for PCT (both Clomid and Nolvadex).
Ok so let me ask yout this. What would you do, if you were in my situation. I understand they wouldnt bounce back within a week. I just dont wanna wait and not do something I couldve or shouldve now, then be SOL later on.
Thanks for your imput.
So here's what I would do if I was in your situation. I would extend my cycle by 3 weeks at a TRT dosage ( around 150mg per week with biweekly injections) I would run hCG at 500 IU EOD for 4 weeks. 5 weeks later I would start PCT.
So 5 weeks from today you would start PCT.
You would run hCG for 4 weeks from today.
I would run testosterone at 150 mg per week with biweekly injections for the next 3 weeks from today.
Clomid 100/50/50/50
Nolvadex 40/20/20/20/20
Hope this helps.
Ok so even tho im on week 2 of pct, I should just start up my cycle again at those low doses? I have about 1000mg left of my test e. Would I need a shorter acting ester?
Thanks for the advice btw. Between you and luke I dont know forsure what is true about the hcg, but this seems to be a better way out since I cant be certain.
I am sorry for some reason I thought you were asking if you are about to start PCT under your circumstances.
If you are in 2 weeks already , then continue on, anything else is going to be counterproductive. I would suggest adding Nolvadex to your Clomid , but if you are dead set against it, so be it.
I am assuming you are running Clomid. 100/50/50/50? You might want to extend it by another week. If you are nervous.
Ok great this was what I was originally thinking I should do. Now my question is should I stop the clomid and continue the ai. Then start clomid back up after, throw in nolva and stop the adex? Or should I just stop the adex all together in fear of messing with an already messy lipid profile. I know ive read having estrogen too low can also hinder libido. And what about doing the hcg 5 days at 500ius instead of 1000. I think im pretty sensitive to it because when I used hcg during my last cycle it plumped my boys back up within a couple days.
AnonYes continue with clomid and drop the ai for now. You can cerntainly do hcg at 500iu for 5 days if more is needed do so. The fact that your sensitive to hcg is good. Where are you at now with pct day wise and what mg dose are you taking of clomid.
Im on day 9 and im currently taking 50 mg of clomid. Im sure I could get torem within a couple days, although I do have a shit ton of nolva on hand. If torem will be that much better then ill grab some. Only ai I have is adex dont have aromasin.
AnonI would do this....
Week 2 100mg clomid 500iu hcg ed for the week
Week three add in torem at 120mg a day and drop the hcg
Week 4 100mg clomid 120 torem
Week 5 120mg torem 12.5mg exemastane
Week 6 120mg torem. 12.5mg exemastane
If you cant find torem just use nolva at 40mg insted this should get you nice and recovered ill fr you so if you have anymore questions you can pm me.
No nolva becaise im going to be using clomid and adex. The way I was thinking is that if I include an ai then there would be no estrogen to control from the receptors anyway?. You think I should throw it in?. My main concern here is my boys down there bouncing back, not too worried about gyno.
If anything, clomid caused me more side effects. Nolvadex is a SERM that raises luteinizing hormone significantly with less side effects than clomid. But like luke2010 said, use Toremifene if your not responding well. Its a newer SERM that raises LH levels 5x more than nolvadex. Triptorelin (GnRH) aka luteinizing releasing hormone looks very promising me. I have 4 vials on the way. I'll be using arimidex on this pct despite aromasin being the better choice. When you stop the test, your estrogen will remain were it was. When you blast the hcg you'll need to control it with an AI. Good pct info luke2010.
I hope you researched Triptorelin really well. It's used for chemical castration. Not an easy compound to use for PCT.
When you blast HCG arimidex wont help with E2 because hCG stimulates E2 production directly in the testes. Since it's not been converted from testosterone arimidex won't help there.
Why would it matter were it's produced? If the estrogen can't bind to a receptor due to an aromatase inhibitor, how would it effect you? Even if e2 from hcg did convert, You still have all the other estrogen that can be inhibited.
And doctors use Triptorelin to reverse "chemical castration" in bodybuilders who took AAS and hcg for over decades, without proper recovery an usage.
You need to understand how Armidex works. It is not a SERM. Armidex does not block estrogen. What it does is stop the conversion of testosterone to estrogen. So if the estrogen is being directly produced in the testes there is nothing to stop, therefore, it is ineffective.
"And doctors use Triptorelin to reverse "chemical castration" in bodybuilders who took AAS and hcg for over decades, without proper recovery an usage."
You're wrong. Doctors use it to induce chemical castration. What you're referring to is a very specialized process, which requires a very precise way of implementing this compound to help jolt the pituitary. It requires very specialized knowledge and a regular doctor wouldn't even attempt it. But if you are determined to use it I wish you the best of luck.
I read up on it a lot more for pct. It is used for chemical castration at 400mcg at once for months on end. That's 4 vials at once for months. Idk why anybody would want this, But supposedly ONE 100mcg shot for pct is all people use. They say that taking serms would give them too much LH and they'd feel like they had blue balls. But yeah, after researching it, I'd only use it for an extremely long and heavy cycle.
The problem with this particular compound is that it's very difficult to tailor the dosage for PCT. The concept for PCT came from the flair effect that is associated with Triptorelin, where after the 1st injection it spikes LH and FSH. But then because of the over stimulating effects it actually does the exact opposite and shuts things down. Hence the chemical castration.
Anyway, I wish you the best of luck. Keep a journal and let me know how it turns out I would be curious.
Only reason I chose clomid was because it supposedly helps natural test recovery alot?. So are you saying I should use it while I blast? Luke recommended I stop the ai.
It's like taking steps down from the high anabolic cloud you were on. It's all about the steady taper down. First step in this case is hcg, you got your balls back. The next step is trying to keep the by using SERMs. The next step is tapering down week by week so your body can SLOWELY let go of the SERM. At the same time you body should start producing it's own natural hormones. Your showing your body how to recover step by step. If you don't show it, then It could actually get lost and take forever to get there.
Clomid and Nolvadex are both SERMs , but the way they affect the pituitary is different. When combined, they are also synergistic. If you want to have a greater success with your PCT you need to use both of them.