getting bloods on short esters
Found this place about 2 or 3 years ago so that is when I started doing bloods. I have only been using long esters (short to kick or taper) so I am familiar with the blood pulling procedure on long esters... week 7 or later.
I am currently on a short ester cycle and need to know when is the best time to test the bloods? I know Rusty had answered me somewhere before but I cant find that answer.
My cycle is:
Cut Mix (50mg Testp/50mg TrenA/50mg Mast P) 1 cc MTWFSa
Tren A (100mg/ml) .5cc MTWFSa
Proviron (50mg/tab) 1 tab ED
Adex (.25mg/Tab) 2 Tab every Monday and thursday
I pin in the morning around 730am each day. Should I pull bloods on a Thursday morning when I do not pin? It would also be 24 hours past my last injection.
- When should I pull bloods
- what will my concentration level be in my blood at the time of testing
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I still do not get this pinning schedule. I can think of no logical reason behind it!
It's Zewi logic. Need we say more!?! ;-)
RustyhookerI'd go week 3.
I don't understand why you're using gear that's more consistent in blood levels at ed pinning every single day but pin in a strange fashion. Fluctuations will change everything from plasma levels, test levels to attitude and estro.
actually the pinning schedule is based on something that zewi has published a while back and I tried it one time and i liked it better than the ed pinnning or eod pinning schedule.
im not asking what week to pin, I am asking what day to pin. I am in week 5 so I have been on a while (by short ester standards). Trying to narrow down the time of day, day of week I would get bloods to get the most accurate reading
RustyhookerI remember him constantly posting that garbage and the two resident guru folks stating his errors. Same zewi that had several rip off scam sites. Lol.
5 weeks in is plenty for getting bloods. When to test doesn't really matter in my mind. Test is low for less sides. Estro and prolactin are the two that need to be checked. If they're good and you're making gains towards goals, you're golden. Megat883 posted the proper test that won't skew estradiol because of the tren.
I'm more curious as to if you're having sides or fluctuations. Acne, attitude, dips in confidence etc.
lol i know where zewi ended in the standings on here. not trying to vouch for him. His post about this made sense at the time and honestly, it gives me a break from pinning and i dont feel a difference from ED pinning.
I have estro/prolactin in the test and yes i am progressing, so everything appears well.
No sides except for random sweats during the day, sleeping has been a little weirder than normal (for tren that is). I have been crashing around 10pm but waking up at 1am and I am thinking its 6am. Does that make sense? I feel like I have been asleep forever but its only been a couple of hours. No night sweats.
I have had acid reflux/heart burn but didnt really start until I tried to add in anavar so I ditch the var and its slowly subsiding. Attitude is dueschy as always lol. I am a bit more aggressive and am noticing I am lookign to argue or get 'alpha' more with others. Acne is not a problem at all. Confidence is high... I am slightly overconfident, borderline cocky with out the gear
all seems fine, I just was asking this to guage what my expectations should be in test levels to see if gear is working. Id have to imagine cut stack is working as it is my only source of test and my sex drive is fine. Tren is in cut stack but also adding in from another source so couldn't say if cut stack is lacking or not.
Rustyhooker50 mg of test, I'd imagine it's not noting to be very high on the test but from others resulted in less sides. I have yet to flip flop the doses. Guessing near 1200.
Var added in gave me bad reflux as well. Supposedly the apple vinegar helps. I've not yet tried it.
Feeling like it's 6am....winny did that to me. Cat naps and I'd feel awesome. Sounds like a good time you're having! I've not seen a test for tren per se but if you feel like a boss, it's strong.
ok, ill look for around 1200. All i want out of the test number is to be able to say, hey I took 50mg 5 days a week on this cut stack and it gave me x result. The gear is good or bad. Obviously it will be hard to tell about the tren (since I have extra tren) and the mast will be hard to tell. but atleast I have numbers to back my claims. i feel great and am getting results so I am satisfied, I just like to back my words with labs to show credibility... especially on here.
i have never had this problem with var... granted when I ran it the other 2 times it was UGL and could very well have been winny. Prilosec seems to help a bit but i think i am fine with out the var.
the sleep thing is weird. after a full night, i am still tired but that waking up at 1am thinking its 6am is throwing me off. I usually wake up to some weird ass tren dream... last night I woke up and sprinted out of my room because I had a dream that spiders were covering the walls. When I came too, I realized I was in my hallway and was breathing like crazy lol
Var gives me really bad acid reflux also. Next time I'm gonna try one of those 24hr long pills like Prilosec or something. Love var but hate the heart burn and the appetite destruction. Apple cider vinegar gives me bad memories lol, had to funnel that shit when I was pledging my frat back in the day hah.
And his test levels are gonna be way way higher then 1200. 250mg of long esters puts me over 2000, weekly counts go out the windows with shorts but assuming it's properly dosed 50mg 5 days a week keeping in mind shorts produce much higher peak plasma levels he will be atleast around 2000 if not more. I don't trust blends and will probably never use them myself but the one thing they usually always have in them is test.
RustyhookerWas taking a WAG....Wild Ass Guess. 100 mg cyp runs the trt guys around 600. His pinning schedule is erratic with roughly 150 peak per section. But yes, with anything erratic I'll be curious as where it lands.
sex drive is fine with tren so I know test is present... I guess we will see what the test shows. thanks for the chime in iron
btw you had apple cider as a pledge, I had mad dogg 20/20 malt liquer to down by the 5th. multiple 5ths at a time
Have you tried putting it in a spoon of peanut butter? That does a great job shielding it. Also Prilosec does actually work.
lol zewi.
I would like to find this pinning schedule Zewi published. Can you point me to it?
its not a post he made, it was either on a post I made or a cycle log someone else made. I know that doesnt help but it was 3 years ago. i will search for it
P2i2tI would personally believe that after waiting at least 10 but probably closer to 14 days into your cycle to be safe, if you wait 24 hours after your last pin it would have your short esters at their peak. I say 10 to 14 days because it is kind of like how they say after 4 weeks your levels begin to overlap with long esters but you should wait at least 7 weeks because even after they begin to overlap after 4 weeks they are not done peaking until at least the 7 week mark as they will be continue to rise slowly from week 4 to 7. I believe in waiting at least 2 full weeks using short esters. So anything after 2 weeks I would tried to draw 24 hours after your last pin because if the half life of prop is 48 hours then wouldnt 24 hours (half time) be the peak time? I am not a doctor or scientist so this is just going based off of an educated guess on my own part.curious as to what others will say
thats intersting you say the half life is 48 hours... I am seeing conflicting posts (on various forums) that says the half life is 4.5 days, the peak levels are 24-36 hours. by your 48 hour method I would have a drastically different blood total than if we are assuming it is 4.5 days.
Just trying to figure out what my levels should be at and what my mg concentration would be.... so if I had 125mg in my blood it lead to a 1200 score or something like that.
Well I'm gonna toss my wrench into a cog today. But Per my medical book 'Testosterone: Action, Deficiency, Substitution' the terminal half life of Test Prop is an average of 19 hours with peak slightly before that. And the mean residence time is an average of 36 hours. Per that study and the graph I am looking at 24 hours should show close to peak but 48 hours would be about 30% of peak.
And that 4.5 day half life is testosterone enanthate. Which has a peak blood level in 24 hours.
Wish I could link a source but its literally in a book on my desk.
test e doesnt have a half life of 4.5 days, its 10.5. And there is no way E peaks in 24 hours, especially if you are saying prop peaks in 19.
I stand corrected on the prop half life. I looked and its listed as 2 days, 4.5 was phenyl. I thought something was off so I apologize.
You sure about that? From my reading there is confusion between mean residence time, terminal half life, and peak plasma levels.
I'm simply citing this book but through case studies of single dose testosterone enanthate patients showed peak levels at 24 hours, terminal half life was 4.5 days and mean residence time was 8.5 days. Of course these are averages with some metabolizing the drug faster and some slower.
Here is a link. steroid plot uses these numbers to calculate blood levels.
http://steroidplot.com/about/
so this may help, found this on a pharmacology discussion board. they are discussing the term 'half life'. there are 2 types: elimination half life and terminal.
Terminal plasma half-life is the time required to divide the plasma
concentration by two after reaching pseudo-equilibrium, and not the
time required to eliminate half the administered dose. When the
process of absorption is not a limiting factor, half-life is a hybrid
parameter controlled by plasma clearance and extent of distribution.
In contrast, when the process of absorption is a limiting factor, the
terminal half-life reflects rate and extent of absorption and not the
elimination process (flip-flop pharmacokinetics). The terminal half-
life is especially relevant to multiple dosing regimens, because it
controls the degree of drug accumulation, concentration fluctuations
and the time taken to reach equilibrium.
When describing the way of a drug through the body each process such as
absorption, distribution and elimination is characterised by its own
transport process which is described in the compartment model and
associated with a rate constant. In the sum, a drug has a characteristic
profile that is determined by these different transport processes. When
talking about elimination half-life often the terminal elimination
half-life is meant. It means in simple words that all other processes
(ie those of absorption or distribution) are no longer present and
elimination entirely prevails, the change of drug over time is only
determined by the process of elimination. Elimination of course can be
the sum of different elimination processes and each of them has its own
rate constant, in those cases the term elimination half-life is broader
and would cover all of these processes, while terminal refers to the
very last one. For the determination of half-life in non-compartmental
PK analysis (a simplified model where no other rate constants are
considered) you usually take the last three measurements and make a
regression line with the best fit through these points, the slope is an
estimate for the elimination rate constant. You must be sure to have
enough data points to cover the terminal phase and not one where eg
distribution still plays a role.
Yes but you have to be careful when using the term half life with a drug like test E. The drug it self is testosterone enanthate but measuring the amount of that in the blood is of minimal importance. The important value to measure is the serum levels of testosterone. The half life that is cited in this book is refered to Terminal Elimination Half Life which is kind of a blanket term.
I wish I could take a picture of these pages and post the info but I think I would get in trouble for that. I am just inclined to believe this data because it has been published by Cambridge University Press through four editions, mine currently being the fourth.
RustyhookerI think your info is tilted/flawed. Testosterone been around since 1935. All the med reports show bout 7 days.
Couple weeks ago some goof posted made up labs. He had 3000 test level on just 1 pin of prop. Test was 3 days after pin. Lol
OK finally got around to digging up some of the case reports. Not saying they are right or wrong but from my research no one has a clear understanding of the actual half life since the numbers are all over the place on some studies. The one study I was referring to was conducted in the 90's so it is reasonably new in terms of testosterone research.
Hope this link works it is another book that references the same studies:
https://books.google.com/books?id=hurRyWje4DMC&pg=PA476&lpg=PA476&dq=stu...
Here is a website with a graph that looks very similar to the one in my book:
http://www.medibolics.com/freq2.htm
And here is the citation for the actual study:
Behre HM, Nieschlag E. Testosterone buciclate (20 Aet-1) in hypogonadal men: pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics of the new long-acting androgen ester. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1992 Nov;75(5):1204-10
For reference the study that calculated to half life of 6.67 days:
Anderson RA, Wu FC. Comparison between Testosterone enanthate-induced azoospermia and oligozoospermia in a male contraceptive study. II. Pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics of once weekly administration of Testosterone enanthate. J Clin Endocrinol Metab.1996 Mar;81(3):896-901.
On a side note I remember that guy that posted those BS numbers on Prop. He was a complete tool lol
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2686335/
Scroll down about a quarter of the way and there is a reference to testosterone propionate having a half life of 19 hours and a peak level at 14 hours.
I will keep going through the reference section of the chapter to try and dig up the actual case studies as they may be available online.
RustyhookerTest prop...dead in 48 as stated above, fully agree.
wouldn't that be dose dependent? 50mg vs 200mg would have different total times to get out of the system. 50mg at a 24 hour half life would be 25mg at 24 hours, 12.5mg at 48, 6.25 at 72 hours
but 200mg w 24 hour half life would be 100mg at 24 hours, 50mg at 48 hours, 25mg at 72 hours
so wouldnt the statement 'dead in 48' be incorrect unless you know the dose?
sorry if I am overthinking this... science was not my forte on the ACT test lol
i dont think 4.5 could be right for E. When you run e, you dont start to feel or see any sides/benefits until week 3-4. If the 24 hour peak was right, you would feel something with in 2 days. Not saying your wrong, I am no expert, but just doesnt seem to add up correctly with what the body feels
well that's were it gets really complex when you start talking about multiple dosages. With weekly injections of 100mg Test E a week steady state is achieved at around the 5 week mark. Steady state was roughly double from a single dose until steady state was reached. The numbers are ~38nmol/l 24 hours test E injection and 78nmol/l once steady state is achieved.
Now I completely agree with the fact one does not "feel" it. But I believe there is a lot more to the "feel test" then simply elevated blood levels. The testosterone still has to bind to receptors, trigger gene expression and the individual body functions have to respond to the gene expression.
The studies also really are limited too. That's why there is so much misinformation out there. Pharmaceutical companies aren't going to invest any money into researching testosterone replacement therapy because there is no money in it. The next big thing is thought to be SARMs and there are five companies working on multiple drugs to try and replace exogenous testosterone usage.
What is the book?
Testosterone: Action, Deficiency, Substitution
2012 edition.
Very good book that brings a lot of studies to a single source. From what I have gathered it's suppose to be the book on testosterone. It even has a nice chapter dedicated to sarms.
I had to step out for a couple hours but when I get back home I can post the authors for the book.
Here is a link to the google ebook though it only shows a small fraction of the book for free.
https://books.google.com/books?id=8U4hAwAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=Te...