-1 do i absolutely NEED caber while on 350mg NPP a week?
so most recently i was doing test prop, NPP, and masteron each compound @ 350mg a week while taking .5mg caber twice a week.
i was doing that for about 5 or 6 weeks and thats all the experience i have with NPP. but i have enough experience with this stuff to know that you never use deca/NPP or tren without a dopamine agonist such as caber or prami or whatever..... so the moment i caber ran out i dropped the NPP.
.5mg twice a week keeps my progesterone in check even when i'm running up to 700mg of tren a week.
i wanna go back on NPP, and the caber is coming it should be here in 3 weeks max, but i'm also on a hardcore cut on 100mcg t3 a day and am horrified of muscle loss like the rest of us.
since 350 a week is on the low side for nandrolones, should i be alright for just a few weeks without caber? worst case scenario if sides do flare up, i call up one of the gym rats and they hook me up with some caber at a ridiculous price and i'll have it within a few hours.
STATS:
29 years old, been on TRT since i was 24 because i used a lot of gear when i was younger and fucked my HPTA, no big deal for me
1.77 meters
85 kilo
around 11% bodyfat
at the moment i am cutting, doing 350mg test prop a week, 350mg mast enth a week, 3iu somatropin 5x a week, 100mcg pharma cytomel t3 ED.
many of you guys might think, why NPP for cutting why not tren? and the answer is simple.. because using tren WHILE cutting is not wise.. you want to use tren when you are already in the single digits and then proceed to be lean. and besides i can't be on tren for no longer than 10 weeks unless i lose my mind
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I have always had it on hand but never actually had to use it. Like everything some people react differently to things and while some have a large need for it with nandro's others don't have as much. I also was only on 300-400mg per week. Can't speak about anything larger than that.
dropdzzI never run deca because of the sides...my wife won't have it.Lucky me I don't have the same problem with tren or anavar.When I did run deca I always used Dostinex,when it became hard to get prescribed I scratched deca off the list because bromocriptine and Prami make me sick.
I finally stopped by this thread. A month after the party ended. This whole general topic about whether or not progestins like Nadrolone and Trenbolone elevate prolactin, cause lactation and induce gyno is like the herpes I got on the bottom of my foot from standing on the frat lodge bathroom floor with a cut on the bottom of my foot. It just keeps on going year in year out.
Bodybuilding doses of 19-nors over sustained periods elevate prolactin. At least they elevate MY prolactin and that of just about everybody I know. That causes problems. Those problems can be eliminated through the use of dopamine agonists like caber. So, using a little caber when running 19 nors ain't such a bad idea.
Quite frankly, I don't give a flying f**k about scholarly research and the like that debates this. I'm running high deca or tren and I'm lactating and I'm reading a research paper telling me this is not possible??? That's what this amounts to.
Well I can't find a blood test in the eroids archives that shows elevated prolactin when running deca or tren. Yeah, well, serum prolactin is not part of a standard hormone panel, it's a special order and most guys don't test for it.
Of course running caber is prudent. Personally, in my mind, anybody that debates this is a MORON.
Well, if you control estrogen, prolactin will not rise. Yeah? Nice. I got better things to do than get ultra super mega intensive about my E2 level. I run letro. When I test E2 it's acceptable. I'm not going to run in and out of blood draw centers every few days while I'm on Tren to check it.
If you have problems with AI's or dopamine agonists, don't spread your BS around this board. But, everyone's entitled to their opinion, GH. Yeah, true. Keep it to yourself. If you think I'm being an asshole about this, guess what? I'm not sorry in the slightest.
Yes. Nandrolone is the hardest thing to recover from for me. Always run caber
some fucking dumbass bro science responses in this forum post. "Running caber and AIs is new school thinking". what the fuck. No , it is not people just got smarter as your test gets increased your estrogen increases as your body is fighting. Too much estrogen hurts growth 10 fold. Nips get tender estrogen is high , milk prolactin is high. Caber to fight high prolactin, an ai to fight high estro. Pull bloods pre, during and post cycle. Alot of new school shit is very correct. Christ back in the day we had guys pulsing long esters jumping from one to the other before they even fully kicked in, doing no pct and never recovering, running cycles with no test base, not pulling bloods at all and cramming endless amounts of orals in cycles and damaging their insides. People leaving shit like this around is absurd. Have a stock pile of ais and prolactin control , along with antibiotics and pull bloods to know what's going on. Don't think you don't need it because some Internet moron said he was good so you will be too. Rant over...
Once again, here is a study showing the impact of Deca at 2 different dosages on serum prolactin levels. High levels of Deca have a pronounced effect (300%+) on prolactin. Scroll down to Table 2. You can see the effect of nandrolone on a host of different items. So much for Broscience -- for those members eternally inclined to ask for "proof". There are other studies as well.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1742-7843.2009.00439.x/full
I constantly preach everyone is different and you cant base fact on peoples personal experiences as you might experience a negative side effect or positive side effect or an uncommon side effect. Hence why we pull bloods work to know what's going on, instead of guessing and hoping. I mean it seems like common sense to me to take the worry and guesses out of everything.
What many fail to realize is if you tell someone no you don't need it and they end up fucking themselves up because they did. It's your fault.
Or
IF you tell them they do and they end up not needing it and get unwanted sides and crash prolactin. Once again it's your fault.
Shity advice like that will not be tolerated by me period. An if i find out its happening there will be consequences.
Be smart and preach bloodwork and take the guess out of everything.
Exactly. And you may have noticed in the article that it said clinical studies have shown mixed results. I don't know how those clinical studies were conducted, but it goes to your point that everyone reacts differently. I'm prone to prolactin from 19 nors. I can get off, use bromocriptine for a while until it's almost gone, then bam! As soon as I get back on a 19 nor mine is elevated within 2 weeks even using a DA like caber or bromo while on cycle.
I've found some more interesting stuff about longer term effects that I'll post up soon re: complete abatement of high prolactin. It's actually harder to get rid of than most people think, oftentimes only through surgical intervention.
AnonFully agree
Cabergoline has serious cardiotoxic side effects. It is not a drug you take as a preventative measure. No one should take the drug without blood work confirming elevated prolactin levels.
cardiotoxic side effects are extremely rare and only seen in long term users that are on high doses generally for parkinsons or restless leg syndrome. For the purposes of lowering prolactin during a cycle, the small doses steroid users take to lower prolactin shouldn't cause that side effect
There is absolutely no proof that you need to run a dopamine agonist with nandrolone.
I agree. Running caber and ai's is new school thinking, and often times those drugs can cause worse sides than the gear did in the first place. People wiping out all their estrogen because their nips got hard on test, etc...
The first cycle I ever did was deca and test. No caber, no a.I., just clomid at the end. I was fine.
It's nothing but bro science. There have been forums here asking for bloods to prove that prolactin is raised and nothing was ever posted. I would love for someone to prove otherwise.......
how would you explain things like deca-dick and tren gyno? I can tell from personal experience that only a dopamine agonist (cabergoline) helped me with sides I got from tren, especially tren-gyno. (leaking nips, swelling)
Do you have bloodwork that shows high prolactin before starting the DA?
I think sometimes you don't need blood work if you have enough experience . With cycling
I have to take caber 0.5 e3d when I was on 350 npp and I need it .and also depending about the npp how much strong . Some countries not easy to have a work blood you can't walk like this to the laboratory and say I want to do work blood , the country I love it's one of them so you have to depending on the sides effect . Depressing and hard get hard not sleep good and a lot of things can explain that you need caber , but also if you do blood work 1000 times better than you have to depending on your feelings or the sides of npp it wasting of money to take drugs you don't need and harm your liver , but sometimes really no option .
The point I'm trying to make is that we still haven't seen any bloodwork showing elevated prolactin fron 19nors. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence that dopamine agonists help some people on cycle, but we don't know why.
I suggest you go look through the blood test section. I've seen them before. Many if they keep estro in check it will keep prolactin in range. Run some serious BB dosages and don't take an AI an don't have a prolactin antagonist on hand and find out. I'm prone to high estro sides and I have lactated on deca all while keeping my estrogen in check mind you. It's not something to dismiss as everyone is different. Keep shit on hand and run bloods period.
I've looked through our lab section and have yet to find elevated prolactin because of 19-nors.
I'm not saying it cant happen, just have yet to see blood work on this.
Eroids as a forum is pro caber, but there are other steroid forums that are completely against the use of caber and are quite sure that the only time prolactin induced gyno can occur is if it's accompanied by high estro as well.
The last time I made a thread on the subject I was told to stfu and that this was no longer up for discussion.
I still think it's a topic that is unresolved and would love to see bloods done, or some research on the subject
You've looked through every lab test posted? Even the ones removed?
Eroids is pro caber because enough guys have had it happen and then had to battle the after math. So when they see guys dismiss it like it is impossible we tend to get pissed off. That's enough research for us, especially when they are valued members....
Its like this most guys can keep their estro in check and be fine with prolactin (still having caber on hand mind you) , some not soo much. Just like some guys can use masteron ran high and can use it as ai and be fine. Guys like myself it wont work i have to use letro because I'm extremely prone to estro sides.
Point being everyone is different I don't need to see bloodwork to know that and ive seen it enough with my own two eyes and also seen enough valued members here have the problem to the point that we preach have caber or prami on hand better safe the sorry. An if i see someone spout off differently they can stay gone with a ban tag. So this is a topic to tred lightly on....
I don't dismiss shit because there isn't blood work. The body is way to complex to be that black and white. Two guys run the exact same shit, compound , dosage and AIs they very well could have different blood work sometimes way different. No two people react the same way to any compound or dosage. Hence why I find it strange why guys don't grasp this subject.
Like i said up top run some bodybuilder dosages and tell me your outcome lmfao other sites might preach different shit but look at all the other flawed info on those sites?.... how people stack compounds, how they come off alot of wrong advice and the bro science is strong.
HAVE A PROLACTIN ANTAGONIST ON HAND WHILE RUNNING 19 NORS TO BE SAFE , YOU MIGHT NOT NEED IT AS EVERYONE IS DIFFERENT BUT , IT'S BETTER TO HAVE IT AND NOT NEED IT THEN NEED IT AND NOT HAVE IT. SIMPLE FUCKING STANCE ON IT I WOULD THINK.
That is a pretty reasonable approach. I even take a light dose of caber as a preventive measure. I would still like to see studies and bloodwork and more discussion on the topic.
We do have real life experiences where guys get deca dick or tren lactation and are able to clear it up with caber, I would like to know more about the way 19-nors lead to these conditions, and why elevated e2 exacerbates the problem.
It is only my experience ofc but I used 400 mg of test 700 mg masteron and 700 mg tren ace and developed lactating nips and a lump WHILE on 2.5 mg pharma letro - only caber and discontinuing the tren helped.
My conclusion on the whole topic is that we only know that we dont know what exactly goes on in the body that causes such things in certain people.
And this is the anecdotal evidence that I'm talking about. I belive what you are saying 100% I just wish that you had some bloodwork to show what was actually going on.
If I can find the paper work i will it was a long time ago. So if someone posted nips lactating , while on a 19 nor and running pharma ancillaries and it was pic but didn't post bloods that wouldn't be enough? Gtfo.
No that's not what I'm saying at all. I don’t dismiss what is obviously happening. What I'm saying is that it would be nice to see some bloodwork to show cause and effect. Without bloodwork we are just assuming both. I've seen multiple studies that say deca cannot raise prolactin so I truly want to know what the hell is going on. I'm looking for answers so I need to get the fuck out?
Here's your proof bro. Scroll down to the chart showing the effect on prolactin at 2 different dosages of Deca administration. Very pronounced increase from baseline at a high dosage.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1742-7843.2009.00439.x/full
Thanks for the link bro, good enough for me. Although the "low dose" equates to 3,780mg total over 14 days in a 200lb man and 18,900mg for the "high dose". It would be cool to see what the numbers would be with a more conventional dose at the end of 12 weeks.
The answers are there. Seems you just need that paper or it isn't true enough for you.
I'll take real world physical experience over the blood tests. Would it be cool to see sure but it doesn't change anything to me along with the rest of the site. An it will not change the stance on this site.
But the answers aren't there. We are assuming cause and effect. We do need the bloodwork so it's not just bro - science.
So what do you think cause it bro 3 compounds one is test base one is a 19 nor one an ai maybe a 4th masteron. Guy gets a lactating issue , what is the the likely cause?
That's not bro science it's common sense bro.
If you want we can design a cycle in private that will cause you to have prolactin induced gyno and lactation and you can pull bloods if you like to have your own bloods. Because I can tell you the vast majority of the cycles that happened including mine wasn't necessarily low dosage.
Again I'm not arguing that this shit isn't happening, I just want to know EXACTLY why. I'm an individual that isn't prone to prolactin side effects, or so I think, from personal experience. I've run low Test with Deca and Tren E without a dopamine agonist. I never had any negative side effects. I didn't get any bloodwork done so I don't even know if I was even running the compounds I think I was running. See where I'm going with this? This topic is like the fucking X-files bro.
personally nandrolone is extremely harsh on system shutdown. like 10 times worse than tren. I'd HIGHLY recommend keeping prolactin in control. I tried 300mg deca per week and by week 3 I had worse prolactin sides. nandrolone can be much more harsh on your system in terms of signaling your body to stop producing test, than most other steroids. from personal experience
Even though I'm not an expert I still agree with irongame. especially since this guy really seem to be an expert. 85 kilos with 11% body fat, what else you need? i perfectly agree that you do not need anywhere 100 mcg of Triiodothyronine. better think about your health as well.
dude, at 85kg, i think thats 187lbs you do not need anywhere near 100mcg of t3, You already smoked your HPTA, I know thyroid bounces back MOST of the time, but theres always that chance, you wanna be on thyroid relplacement therapy also? Again, that dose of t3 reflects that of like a 5'7 230 on stage mass monster. Not a 187lb dude. I dont care how much gear you take youre going to lose ALOT of muscle running that much t3, no doubt. I would suggest dropping the t3, if youre not gonna do that i think 25mcgs is all you need, maybe 37.5. The only reason to be using that stuff is if youre down to something like 6-7% and are having issues pushing past that and getting lower....FOR A SHOW. Not just to look good. Thats my 2 cents.
As for your npp, where all different, nobody can answer that question for you, me personally I dont need caber with nandrolone unless my estrogen gets extremely high which is typically follwed by a spike in my prolactin. Out of all the times ive ran npp and ive used it alot ive only needed it once, the one time i ran a dbol kicker and my only ai was proviron because that works for me, i dont kckstart my cycles and i just wait for the esters to build and slowly taper up the provi and add some adex when the long esters peak around week 4ish, but last time i used dbol and didnt account for the massive conversion to estrogen which spike my prolactin and i needed caber for a few weeks.
so again, were all different, I personally atleast up until this point in time ( our bodies change over the years) dont need a dopamine agonist on even 500-600mgs of npp. But i have friends whos nipples leak and libidios tank without a heavy dose of caber. higher then the standard .5mgs twice a week, some of them need 2mgs ew. So have you ever ran npp without a DA? If so how did it go?
And last question, why are you cutting at 85kg at 11% bf? IMO youre lean enough to add some solid size. Is it a summer cutter lol?
RustyhookerThe stats alone make me question the rest of this. How long this guy running, stuff still coming and hey lets throw in thyroid.
Never hear of .5e3d as any "standard" on caber. .25e3d was plenty on a tren at 100ed. Prolactin too low also kills sex drive per newer med reports