+ 2 Advanced question about ARs
First off let me just say that I'm not planning on running any complicated stacks right now, so warnings are of course appreciated but not necessary. I just would like to understand all of this works for curiosity/knowledge reasons.
I think this is a bit of an advanced question, if it's not then I apologize for the misleading title. I've done research on this and I can't seem to find much information on it, so hopefully some of the experienced users on here can give some insight.
My understanding is that steroids/androgens bind to androgen receptors which trigger the chain of events leading to the increases in protein synthesis, IGF-1 etc.
When using multiple compounds, the one which has the greater binding affinity or binds more quickly to the receptor is the one that will take effect.
Is this true? If so, when a user is using something like tren + test, the tren is actually binding to the AR, and the test is primarily being used for it's other necessary functions instead of binding to ARs itself? Or is the reason tren is effective is because its a progestin so it has a synergistic effect with test being an androgen?
What about other compounds that are also androgens and do not affect progesterone levels, something mild like Anavar? When stacking Anavar + test, what is the role of the anavar? Which one is binding to the AR? It being weaker than test, but it also being a compound that is known to bind to ARs relatively well, what is happening in your body if you're on a moderate dose of test like 500mg and a low dose of var like 50mg? Will the var bind to the AR instead of the test, if so wouldn't that hurt the overall effectiveness of the stack?
Basically how do people decide which doses to stack of which compounds to prevent AR competition and to maximize ratio effectiveness etc? Do people just follow advice based on trial and error logs or is there a known science to all of this?
I know this is too long of a post, but any knowledgeable insight would be great.
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I have used 1-test cyp (dihydroboldenone) which has a 5x greater binding affinity similiar to tren and I noticed I had to increase my AI dosage. I was only running 400mg/wk of test C with it but noted increased AI use compared to 500mg of test c. 1-test C doesn't aromatize to any appreciable degree so I am just attributing the increased AI to the 1-test occupying a larger percentage of the receptors and leaving the left over test to aromatize. Like GearHead mentioned, it seems like the best way to run any of those "high affinity" compounds would be with low test and provi to minimize the estro sides.
how were your results from the 1-test cyp? never talked to anyone who used 1-test except in m1t form
why has 1-test fallen out of favor so much? i did use m1t when it was popular almost a decade ago and still legal. it was really effective, harsh on the body, but effective. i had always assumed that the harshness was primarily because it was methylated.
is it just not really used because it's not being produced much these days? i used superdrol back then also, i found the effects of them similar. some people still choose to take superdrol over "real" gear even though the sides are so terrible. so if it works, why has 1-test been forgotten? not advocating bring it back or anything, just curious
This is from a different post I made about 1-test. We are talking the injectable not the oral here. I don't think it has fallen out of favor, it never was really in to be honest, but I think the reason you don't see it much is because it is a very hard compound to keep in solution and not worth the effort for most sources so they tend not to carry it.
This is the 1-test cyp cycle I ran last summer:
1-14 400mg/wk Test C
1-14 500mg/wk 1-test C
HGH 4iu/day
4-14 Arimidex .25mg/E3D
That cycle definitely sold me on 1-test. My primary goal with that cycle was a recomp and it worked perfectly. I exploded and put inches on everywhere. My shoulders gained 2in, 1in on biceps, 3in around chest/back and lost ½ in around waist. By the end of the cycle I had gained a solid 9lbs and dropped 3% BF. I say a solid 9 lbs because I retained all of it after PCT, including most of the inches, so it was good lean mass and not all water weight. The vascularity and strength gains were pretty insane. The vascularity effects I received from it lead me to believe that this would be an excellent pre-contest compound. My biceps looked like I had fire hoses running through them and I had spider web veins spreading across my chest and shoulders. All of this was noticeable with a BF of 9-10%. I can only imagine the results at 4-5% BF. Towards the end of my cycle when my BF was the lowest, I also noticed that more dense, hard, and grainy look to my muscles. Once again I can only imagine how that would have looked on stage at 4%, but I was still impressed how it gave that hard polished looked at 9%BF.
I noticed no negative side effects from it. I had tons of energy, libido great, no mood swings and didn’t experience any insomnia. Alpha feeling all the way. The one thing that I did notice was that I still had to keep up with my AI, a little bit more than what I needed for a test only cycle at 500mg/wk. 1-test supposedly doesn’t aromatize to any appreciable degree so my increased use of AI has me somewhat perplexed. I am just speculating here, but this could be due to the fact that 1-test has a much greater affinity for the receptors than the test which may be leaving more test left over to aromatize.
I should also mention I experienced no pip from this compound. I had two different brands during my run and both were smooth. Many people seem to shy away from this compound because they hear of these pip horror stories from it. I should mention that if you are allergic to EO, guiaicol, and all that stuff then this is not a compound for you and the horror stories are true. This is one of the hardest compounds to keep in solution and some hefty amounts of solvents are present in it.
As far as dosing with this compound, I see no need to go above 500mg. For my first run of it I probably should have kept it around 300-400mg. This stuff is strong and the results are dramatic. It is supposedly 5x more anabolic than test and I believe that to be true. The test only cycle I ran fails in comparison with the addition of the 1-test and I was running less test during this cycle.
I also think that a cycle longer than 14 wks with this stuff is probably unnecessary. The gains really seemed to taper off approaching that 14 wk mark so I think the receptors were pretty saturated by that point and there was no point to continue.
I think 1-test is a very versatile compound and as always your diet will dictate the results. I really think it would particularly shine as a cutter since it doesn't seem to aromatize to any appreciable degree and it really seems to bring out awesome vascularity as well as polishing the muscles with that hard, grainy and dense look. All of this while still gaining quality mass and losing fat. My next contest prep is likely going to include 1-test with either mast or var and very low test.
I am going to be starting an EQ run in a week, so it will be interesting to compare the two. They say that about 5% of EQ converts to DHB.
Yeah bro! Great question. Love it. Lived it. Sweet !!!
I gotta go to work so I can't write a novel but, for example - Test and Tren.
When u stack those, Tren has sooooo much more of a binding affinity to the androgen receptor than testosterone it will occupy most of the receptors leaving little room for Test to bind. This is why we run Tren High, Test Low or even so Low - test at TRT levels on a Tren cycle.
If u run Tren high and Test High - u will most certainly find a rapidly rising E2 in your lab work. It's not that your AI isn't working, it's just that the Test isn't binding and is circulating in your blood stream just waiting to be aromatized to estrogen. So much so, that the AI just has a diminished capacity to stop it.
What to do? There is an answer. Run Tren High and Test Low and use Proviron to boost the effectiveness of the lower test by producing more free test which is actually what we care about. You can get labs back with Test over 4000 but if free Test is low, it's not doing u any good.
I just gave u a bump for asking such and intelligent and useful question. If you've got more like, it bring it on bro.
Oh, forgot about the other part of your questions - multiple weaker compounds will all bind. Were it not so, we would have quite a problem.
thank you for the response, it makes perfect sense what you're saying about less is more with the test when a higher affinity compound is taking up the lion's share of the ARs.
i'm glad you liked the question and were able able to answer it. reading your and makwa's replies did trigger a follow up question:
so we know that some people are gyno prone and have to run high dose AI even on a moderate dose of test, and some people are unlucky enough not to be aware that they even need to run AI, but be lucky enough to run a cycle and develop no gyno.
Iinstead of the difference in genetics being related to an actual estrogen sensitivity or "gyno prone" etc. is it plausible that people some people tend to aromatize more because of an issue with ARs?
l did read the sticky about "Clearing Your Receptors 101" and it makes sense. i always thought that hardgainers/ectomorphs had it hard because their metabolism made it hard to gain size, but are they really the lucky ones because if they put the hard work and nutrition in they typically have the best androgen receptors to actually gain the lean size?
are there other factors that affect how well your ARs work or how many your body produces or are ARs a flat number that you just have? i think you have what you have but i'm not sure. if that's the case aside from metabolism and taking breaks from all compounds is there any way to naturally improve your ARs ability to perform?
I'm not a scientist, but I don't think the number of androgen receptors is fixed. I spent 2 min on Google and found the following study. Can't say it's totally trustworthy as the sample size is too small (10 men). At least it's an NIH study and not the claim of some supplement manufacturer.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16826026
I'm sure if you want to do the research, there are probably much better studies to support this notion. The citation above was simply confined to the effects of L-Carnitine. This doesn't get me jazzed up in the slightest except to point out that androgen receptor content can be manipulated.
On the aromatase issue, my understanding from years of reading (I could be dead wrong here but my memory isn't failing yet) is that the body's level or armoatase production is genetically determined. The only reason I have done any reading about this is because I, personally, produce extremely high amounts of aromatase that doesn't change if my BF is 15% or 5%. The number of estrogen receptors increases with more adipose tissue, but your question is about aromatase. If this community knew how much Letrozole I take to keep my E2 down when running Test - I hope the community would simply chuckle but that's my secret to keep. I have NO FEAR that my estrogen would ever crash. Ever. LMAO
Lots of good questions there but they are beyond my experience and knowledge to answer. +1 for raising some interesting questions. Looking forward to someone to shed some light on those questions. Hopefully everybody will be able to learn something here.
Seems like a good explanation to me.