+ 19 19 nors (tren) don't cause prolactin issues?
Okay so I have been checking up on how estrogen and prolactin effect each other. Like keeping estrogen under control keeps prolactin under control (from what I understand). I know some of you will freak out about this but I have never used an ai or caber or prami on any cycle and (knock on wood) never had any issues. I guess I'm not too prone to estrogen or prolactin sides but I know some are.
I prefer to keep stuff simple and not take unnecessary meds (unless needed). Imho people take too many meds on cycle when they are not needed. I'm not saying don't be prepared or don't have stuff on hand just in case. Especially if you already know your sensitive or prone to getting them. I'm just sayin you don't need to ALWAYS run an ai or prami on cycle.
Some of the information I posted below definitely goes against the norm and I thought it was very interesting. I'm not saying I believe or confirm the posts, I just feel its worth talking about.
This was from UK Muscle and the person who posted was Ausbuilt. Below that is a quote from Bill Roberts (who some say is a aas legend and genius and others say he is a moron). Again I'm just interested in peoples views and opinions.
Deca dick is not caused by high prolactin:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18082071
see its not prolactin rise that causes ED. it may play a part, but its not a direct cause. Further, when it comes to deca dick, its due to DHN:
"...Erectile dysfunction is attributed to the weaker action of dihydronandrolone in the penis since dihydrotestosterone is a known sexual modulator."
from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nandrolone
Basically DHT is a strong androgen, and causes erections (think proviron) and when you take test, 5-7% of all test converts to DHT (and gives you erections) where as 19-nortest derivatives such as deca and tren reduce to DHN which does the opposite...
At any rate the whole think with tren/deca and prolactin is... a BIG misunderstanding...
There is some pretty basic misunderstanding out there, with people repeating "bro science" and saying they have "prolactin" gyno from deca or tren, which is physically impossible:
Prolactin "...stimulates the mammary glands to produce milk (lactation): Increased serum concentrations of prolactin during pregnancy cause enlargement of the mammary glands of the breasts and prepare for the production of milk. However, the high levels of progesterone during pregnancy suppress the production of milk. Milk production normally starts when the levels of progesterone fall by the end of pregnancy and a suckling stimulus is present
thats from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prolactin
You should note that, HIGH progesterone INHIBITS prolactin!!
Then, 19-nortestosterones , are classed as progestins:
"Clinical studies have shown" Deca Durabolin..." (a 19-nortestosterone derivative) "... to be effective in treating anaemia, osteoporosis and some forms of neoplasia including breast cancer, and also acts as a progestin-based contraceptive... Estrogenic effects resulting from reaction with aromatase are also mitigated as a result of the drug being a progestin."
from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nandrolone
And if you read this, 19-nortest has MINOR activity in aromatisation in men:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...39128X66910129
Now what DOES cause breast development?
"While estrogens are present in both men and women, they are usually present at significantly higher levels in women of reproductive age. They promote the development of female secondary sexual characteristics, such as breasts, and are also involved in the thickening of the endometrium and other aspects of regulating the menstrual cycle. In males, estrogen regulates certain functions of the reproductive system important to the maturation of sperm[10][11][12] and may be necessary for a healthy libido.[13][14]"
from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estrogen
Now progesterone:
"...Progesterone has a number of physiological effects that are amplified in the presence of estrogen. Estrogen through estrogen receptors upregulates the expression of progesterone receptors.[26] ."
also:
"Progesterone is sometimes called the "hormone of pregnancy",[35] and it has many roles relating to the development of the fetus...In addition progesterone inhibits lactation during pregnancy. The fall in progesterone levels following delivery is one of the triggers for milk production." (folks please not, as noted above in prolactin- high progesterone INHIBITS prolactin, low progesterone lets prolactin rise).
both the above from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progesterone
So to summarise that:
1. 19-nortest derivatives (deca & tren) are progestins
2. High levels of progesterone INHIBIT prolactin
3. Progesterone only exerts the majority of its effects in a high oestrogen environment.
So, where the F**K do people get of saying take CABER to suppress prolactin when taking 19-nor steroids??? Taking a 19-nor steriod AUTOMATICALLY INHIBITS PROLACTIN!!!
That was from UK Muscle and this is from Bill Roberts:
Those claiming "prolactin" apparently never do so from actually measuring prolactin.
There is no evidence that trenbolone increases prolactin, and what evidence there is -- from the veterinary literature -- shows that it does not.
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Yeah I'm not sure what sides do you have from deca? Water retention? lethargy? low libido? sensitive nips? those could all simply be from the drug nandrolone a direct side effect, some of those sides could not have anything to do with estrogen or prolactin. Anyways that is interesting you are reacting in this way. Truly women do not always respond in the same manner as men do to these drugs all the time.
That would be a good post to see if other women are also experiencing similar side effects. If you made one and other women contributed you might be able to see if there is any similarities and if they truly are direct estrogen related symptoms or if you alone are experiencing those sides. There's so many receptors and conversions that happen inside the body it's very difficult to pinpoint what is exactly happening, especially in an anabolic steroid that few women take, both in the medical field and in the bodybuilding community there is certainly a lack of research in this area. So yeah that would be an interesting post worth looking into possibly to see if anyone can find studies of the effect of nandrolone on women
What are the differences? Again, I'm not attempting to taunt I would just like to learn
I thought that progestin is just synthetic progesterone created for the sake of not being able to patent progesterone since it is a direct hormone. But that wouldn't make sense either? I.e. Testosterone Cypionate by Pfizer
No progestin is a class of hormones. I believe there is a horse progesterone that is patented as synthetic progesterone.
progesterone IS A PROGESTIN. lol I know this is confusing sorry but you must not confuse and mix the meaning of these hormones
think of progesterone, pregenolone, trenbolone, and nandrolone. These are all hormones in a class called progestogens also knows as progestins (though It is arguable trenbolone + nandrolone could be in the androgen class instead). the word progestin IS NOT A HORMONE, it is simply a name for a group of hormones
progestins, androgens, corticosteroids, estrogens - these are all CLASSES of hormones
Oh and here.. this COULD be the cause of progestin gyno:
Other effects
It raises epidermal growth factor-1 levels, a factor often used to induce proliferation, and used to sustain cultures, of stem cells.
It increases core temperature (thermogenic function) during ovulation.[42]
It reduces spasm and relaxes smooth muscle. Bronchi are widened and mucus regulated. (Progesterone receptors are widely present in submucosal tissue.)
It acts as an antiinflammatory agent and regulates the immune response.
It reduces gall-bladder activity.[43]
It normalizes blood clotting and vascular tone, zinc and copper levels, cell oxygen levels, and use of fat stores for energy.
It may affect gum health, increasing risk of gingivitis (gum inflammation) and tooth decay.[44]
It appears to prevent endometrial cancer (involving the uterine lining) by regulating the effects of estrogen.
Progesterone plays an important role in the signaling of insulin release and pancreatic function, and may affect the susceptibility to diabetes or gestational diabetes.[45][46]
It is related with apoptosis theory <not just Abstract> and increase monocytes
Sources cited: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progesterone
Also, noticed number 1 and 2. Effects of Progestin = gyno? and 2 is obviously a strong progestin (trenbolone)
THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS "PROGESTIN" GYNO
nandrolone the hormone itself causes decreased libido in many people. even if prolactin levels are normal. Deca dick is/can be caused by different effects. for some it's the rise in estrogen/prolactin, for others it's the drug itself like you posted DHN. Deca also shuts down you balls pretty hard and that causes a decrease in natural libido (LH and fsh).
I'm not freaked out. I'ts common to not have estrogen related sides. Not all people convert much test to estrogen.
All I have to say about that is have you ever got a blood test to see where your estrogen is? Extreme levels can cause long term health problems relating to prostate for example. many others I'll come back here and comment later but there is a price to be paid if you don't control your estrogen. Just because you don't get gyno doesn't mean you are immune to estrogen sides. I don;t get gyno either I can run a gram of test and dbol without an AI but I still take it for other reasons.
I beyond completely agree about elevated estrogen, regardless of symptoms and signs. It needs to be in check regardless of the effects of an A.i. and/or dopamine medication. Our health is the greatest factor in our lives.
Another thing I bet a lot of people have no idea is that after having sex; prolactin levels rise and progesterone levels dip for a few hours; along with Dopamine. Now you just had wild sex; your heart is pounding and your blood pressure is maxed and guess what is now flowing through your body at a rapid pace? That is correct. The problem comes into play when Progesterone levels drop out from too much estrogen. Take a look at this article here and it goes into it in more detail about the need for progesterone. http://www.bodylogicmd.com/hormones-for-men/progesterone
Most of it sounds like a commercial but for the most part I believe thing's like Deca dick and other low libido shit on cycle is due to someone being overly aggressive at trying to reduce E2 and other things....without getting a blood test to see where they are! I took Deca for a little bit and had no low libido or leaky nips as well, I did not take caber or prami and I also was very methodical about my AI and only using it when I "felt" I needed it. What works for one does not work for many.
Great thinking. Nice read. The etiology of gyno is still unknown as of the writing of this tread. Period. If I'm wrong, please point me in the direction of scholarly medical articles that have been published in the last year that reveal what it is. We don't know. I am an academic by training, so much so that I will submit that real understanding of the most complex concepts was personified by the late physicist Dr. Einstein - He could explain general relativity to a school child such that the child understood.
I will submit to this board that more imperative than all the scholarly posts we could collectively write on this topic is that we remain in agreement that the effects of AAS will continue to vary from user to user.
High levels of progesterone have been shown to inhibit prolactin and as I'm not writing one of my magnum opera here I will not search for the ample references on that.
Yet, I have personally experienced lactation from running multiple 19-nor compounds concurrently at a time I was not running any dopamine agonists. Shouldn't be. But it is absolutely the case. That requires an elevated level of prolactin. At the time, my estrogen levels were elevated from the Test I was also running but not so high as to be a pressing concern. The two 19-nors were Tren and Deca. So if we are postulating that estrogen levels must be sky high to create the climate for lactation, cannot be the case either. So, if the Tren and Deca together were not creating the prolactin - I am more that open to hear an premise on what was. In fact, I am dying in anticipation of hearing a theory.
I think the OP is refining his conclusions even further. Tren doesn't cause elevated prolactin but we don't know about deca. I don't have the personal experience to answer this - I would have had to individually and separately experienced lactation on a Tren alone cycle and a Deca alone cycle and I have not done so.
So, after all is said and done, I run dopamine agonists with Tren alone and with Deca alone and also the infrequent times I run them together and I have not experienced lactation.
I love this part of eroids as well. Nothing like a good deep read. But, what marks it as a superior read is if the OP has the personal experience that lends credence to the claims being made.
GearHead
Hey GearHead. I have a couple of questions about your experience with treating lactation. I sent you a PM, so if you see this I'd like to hear about your experience with this.
The combination of deca+test will result in MORE estrogen conversion than test alone so you are wrong in that sense. I'm willing to bet your estrogen levels were sky high! even if you werent using that much test
Very well said! Thanks for the response.
Bro, this is one of those subjects that I'm sure the whole of the AAS community worldwide would love a definitive open and finally shut case with clear instructions on how to manage the situation. I know I would.
Whatever u decide to do, we all play a little bit of guinea pig with our bodies every time we try a new compound. Which is why on eroids we are so fervent with new AAS users that they only add one new compound to each cycle if they insist on expanding their horizons. I have known people that have lactated on high test and tren (the guy was a door man at a bar and an absolutely huge guy and I got to know him well enough and he didn't have any concept on managing estrogen or prolactin and he wasn't doing any 19-nors and the milk was running down his tee shirt. Yuk.
I know folk that have lactated on high tren and high deca individually. If u decide not to use a dopamine agonist and u have this problem, the sky is not falling. Except u are gonna want to stop the lactation. Next time around, try something like caber and if it works for u great. All that means is the mechanism of action of Trenbolone (which is a veterinary drug nowadays) is not fully understood and because it is no longer used to treat human disease, it may never be fully researched, unfortunately.
This is exactly why this is the best site on the internet. Don't know whether I agree or not but the question needs to be asked. Many folks take medications as a preventative measure that don't need to be taken based on "bro-science". Everything we put in our body has some sort of side effect, why do it if we don't need to! +1
Dude you hit the nail on the head! "Everything we put in our body has some sort of side effect, why do it if we don't need to!
When and if it's necessary is the point. I'm a firm believer in KISS: Keep It Super Simple! And that goes for more than just aas usage.
This is turning into a superb thread.......... this is eroids at its finest!... you got one happy MOD right here :)))))..... we need some big tag ADV boys to join this party now and show their skill sets off.
Yeah, I'm really stoked about it too. I was going to post it last night but didn't have time. At first I didn't know where to post it so I just chose to post it here. And to be honest, I was expecting the exact opposite to happen.
Really looking forward to see where this goes.
Well bro!.. it could go either way thats the name of the game when we turn new ground over!... buts thats how we learn and evolve so its all good in my book.
I'm certainly not an expert, but I am using Prami currently to treat lactation resulting from what I think was Deca, even a low dose of it. The one thing that is patently wrong with the UK Muscle post is that progesterone does not inhibit the production of prolactin. Prolactin levels rise throughout pregnancy concomitant with the rise in progesterone. What progesterone inhibits is the ability of prolactin to stimulate lactation. Once progesterone levels drop, then prolactin does its thing. Me thinks that's why I showed nothing until after cessation of use, just my opinion. But the prami seems to be doing it's thing, fwiw.
Thanks for posting your experience.
Just curious, what was your cycle (compounds, doses, length) and did you run an ai?
Test E 500mg per week, Deca 300mg per week for 10 weeks with .5 Adex EOD (followed by Test P taper for 2 weeks, ended today) I did not use Prami maintenance dosage until latter part of cycle, and did not have any signs of gyno at end of cycle. Just squeezed one night last week and Splammy! So possibly I'm overly sensitive to it, idk. Cheers
You've forgotten one very important thing... just something to think about .. EXCESS progesterone in women is converted to ESTROGEN and it is for this very reason that women on hormone replacement therapies are given high doses of progesterone in addition to estrogen supplementation because of the conversion of progesteron to estrogen.
This is all good stuff. Is adex or aromasin effective against the conversion of estrogen from progesterone? This one makes me question all of the false high estrogen levels reported when users are running tren. From my understanding, it just applies to conversion of testosterone, or blocking the receptors. Is that correct?
I had to pull over and read up on this one more. So it appears exestamene isn't prescribed if breast cancer cells are progesterone receptor positive and ER-
I really wonder if some of the high readings are actually false, or if they haven't been noticed in some due to aromasin effectively blocking receptors and some of the dht's countering the estrogen. My interest is sparked
RustyhookerT883 has written many forums on tren causing false positives. It's the method used not the estradiol that's skewed. Not to be confused with high estradiol readings.
Thanks bro. Ill look into those. I followed that one pretty loosely. I get a science erection when I hear something new.
RustyhookerSame here buddy. Love to learn new things. I've avoided nors for a long time since all the info on safety was so mixed.
Not to get off subject but is your picture sloth from the Goonies?
Yes it is lol. It wasn't taken, so I had to
I frickn loved the Goonies when I was a kid.
"Hey you guys!"
Very good point!
Great stuff! Thank you for posting this! I too have never had a problem with deca or tren.
RustyhookerSo running your mast/provi to overcome the dhn is the key? I ran caber last cycle as a preventative. But kept my mast even with the nor. As long as i was horney as Hell my estro was in check. Or I'd adjust as/if needed.
I believe that is correct. I forgot which mod posted that they ran test, tren, proviron and nothing for prolactin but that's the idea.
I'm running tren for the first time this spring and that's what I'm going to run.
RustyhookerMy next cycle I'm going back to old school cycling. Thank you for getting us to rethink the norms!
Trens shutdown sucked a bit. Pharma or high grade pct..
No problem. And I'm definitely about the old school way of a lot of things.
And yes definitely phama pct. I tried some nolvadex once from a top rc company and never again. ALWAYS phama for pct.
We spoke about that bro.... you know were to get it now so i say "go for it"... you know instinctivly its right so why dilly dally..... you know my view on orals lately!... fkn lots of folks feeling shit taking bullshit Ai imo
I seen what you said about AI and I dropped mine a few weeks ago. Literally a week later my weight started climbing again, strength, mentality and energy have been amazing since. I felt like the adex was shutting down to much in order fir me to see more results
I dropped my AIs about 4 weeks ago. Mast and proviron seem to be keeping sides in check and I have not felt this good in months. My energy level is unbelievably high all day until I hit the sack where I fall asleep in 5 min and sleep like the dead. I feel reborn since I dropped my AIs.
Good stuff!.. thats what i like to hear, positive results.
Love where this post is going. AI's made me feel like shit and limited my gains. Not sure weather it was a direct AI thing or just because feeling like shit affected my training and diet and sleep. Masteron and proviron did the trick and even though I ran NPP didn't need the caber I had on hand. I think what is really important is what Hollywood stated above, know your body and have the remedies on hand to use if need be. I think many of us hurt ourselves taking fairly harsh drugs for no need!
RustyhookerDefinitly big boss! It's gonna happen.
Thats would me bro... i run mast/provi with everything due to never running specific Ai.. ie.. adex/aro etc
I think you really have something there by running mast and proviron on each cycle.
i love provi. cant wait to try mast
For any basic type cycle i would suggest no more than 300mg mast pr wk and 50mg provi ED...... ALWAYS use mast E for the lingering effect of the long ester to get the best out of its Ai properties ok.
Some say split provi dose morn/eve.... i say take it all first thing on an empty stomach thats when test levels are at the highest.... so get the best from the free test giving abilities... libido is a freebie with provi without the bunged nose and muscle aches from cialis.
ya provi def made a difference. i was planning on running tren a test p mast p for next cycle to get ready for summer time. i think ima load up on mast e in the near future now lol. thanks for the great info V!
thats alright.. if your cutting stay with mast P......... with a bulk/maintenance cycle go with the E instead bro.
Provi will help keep you dry on the cut as well ok
Haha! Should have known.
Amazing information. +2
This has officially changed my mind when replying to people with the words prami or caber...