+ 11 Who should/shouldn't be on AAS?
You all have an opinion. Don't shy away now. In a thread written by IronBlonde yesterday about the ladies, it got me thinking about this again. Aside from the ppl who just flat out don't want to put in the work and think AAS is the answer to a god like body with no effort, who should or shouldn't use AAS?
The bodybuilders
So most of the time when someone questions another's use of gear it's a bodybuilder questioning it. The bodybuilders preach diet and training. Reaching natural potential. Yes yes and yes ,...if the person is a bodybuilder. They need to dial in their diet , train relentlessly completely natural for as long as it takes to meet their potential etc. Fine, I get it. I agree. I don't want to see anyone ruining their endocrine system with premature use and not taking the proper precautions. So, asking the individual their goals is first and foremost IMO.
The athletes
Now, this one is tricky. There will be ppl claiming to be athletes who simply are not. But they easily get weeded out down the line. Let's talk about a fighter for instance. Something brought up in the thread I mentioned earlier raised the point "the athlete knows what they have to do in terms of proper nutrition ,AAS etc." Really? Do you know what proper nutrition for a fighter is? Have you ever set foot in a ring? Fuck, I bet half of the ppl with the opinions couldn't hit a heavy bag for 1:00 straight without absolutely collapsing. Do you know why? We do! We absolutely LOAD UP ON CARBS! High protein ,high fat, high carb diets. Something the stage ready bodybuilder would be freaking about. Then do you know what we do? Let's say I am fighting at light heavyweight (175lbs) and I'm walking around ,training at 202lbs. Guess what I have to do? The next week or 2 of my life is going to suck big fat elephant balls. I have to cut weight for the weigh in. That means starving myself. Do you think I shouldn't be on AAS because I am not eating properly? Fuck you! I'm going to need the performance enhancement now more than ever. You had better believe my opponent is gona be ready to take my head off. So do I just stop using my halo, or Tren because you think I don't need to be on it because my natural potential hasn't been reached? Guess what, you can take that opinion and jam it straight up your ass ,...sideways! Let someone tell me they don't think I should be on AAS because I'm not a bodybuilder when they not only haven't set foot in my shoes, but would get their big asses handed to them if they tried. Sometimes they will even say "omg you are doing it wrong. Who told you to cycle that way? Where did you hear that? That's just wrong! You have no knowledge of AAS." STFU! You don't have the faintest clue how to cycle properly if you were an endurance athlete. My progress can't be assessed by looking in a mirror. Fuckin dip shit! Ok, I got a little emotional about that one. But you get the point.
Fitness models
I don't know of any and don't know what it takes to be one but I'm giving an honorable mention. I suspect they use traditional cycles in short bursts to achieve a chiseled look.
Kids
This one is the tricky one. NOBODY on this site condones the use of AAS in kids. But what about when the kid is in his early 20's, has a fantastic physique, has clearly put in work , and already has experience on stage? Does that mean it's ok? I'm asking sincerely.
This is a debate amongst the moderators and we are seeking a resolution. I want to hear what you have to say. What if they claim to be an athlete, what is the guideline in that case to give advice or not? I'm curious on your
opinions.
Trt
There are the guys who were not feeling so hot, climbing up in age and put on Trt by their doc. They come here to learn about AAS. They discover the things the doctor isn't gona tell them. Maybe they like what they are experiencing and want to venture into new compounds to achieve that god like body. Is that ok? Or because they aren't a friggen bodybuilder they shouldn't be on either? You see the pattern here?
Muscle wasting disease
Now I would hope that nobody is ignorant enough to say these guys/gals shouldn't be on AAS. Clearly they need it. Maybe here to learn more as the Trt guys are. Or maybe to go further and gain that god like physique with cycling. So,....where do we stand? Because a lot of ppl have a lot to say. I'm curious who stands up here.
Power lifters (sorry grrrl)
Now what about these guys/gals? They almost always look "sub par" according to bodybuilding standards. Sometimes they even look fat and out of shape when in reality they would twist a bodybuilder up like a pretzel and catch the punch of the mighty boxer crushing his hand with a squeeze of his grip. They surely put in the work and have every right to use whatever means they can to gain an edge in training. Do they not?
Mostly I want to get an idea of what everyone thinks. Don't hold back. It won't be held against you no matter your view. Give your opinion. It will help the community grow. I'll keep my aggression toward bias bodybuilders to myself. For some reason it's always a bodybuilder with something to say. This is NOT A BODYBUILDING WEBSITE! Get it?
LET ME ADD, i don't have anything against bodybuilders (other than the popular opinion on AAS). Some of my favorite ppl are bodybuilders. Shit all my partners are bodybuilders. Well Trenabolic and big bro King Viking are. Noid is more like me I think. Just doin the damn thing. So I have plenty of ppl here who are bodybuilders that I am fond of. Great guys/gals and I have nothing against them. I have something against the ones who feel superior to others. Acting superior is usually as sign of deep rooted feelings of inferiority! Just sayin. Psych 101!
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Great comment plus one
RustyhookerGreat description and i agree. Lol
Thanks and Thanks again for taking the time too help me out the other day. Pretty sure I got it figured out
RustyhookerAnytime!
Imo no I wouldn't help a 18 year old. Even with a simple test only cycle. I honestly don't think I would help a 20 or 21year old but if that's where this leads that's fine. I would prolly read the post and move on. I'm not comfortable helping such young man with which could be life altering consequences. If I ever learned of a 18 year old I helped and they destroyed there hpta. Cause they took a simple test cycle and went crazy. It would really bother me
This is so hard to answer because I'm sure there are 18 year olds out there who do their research and are cautious about using steroids, but then again there are adults 30-40 years old at my gym who I personally had to educate about steroids because of what I learned here. If there are "adults" at my gym who have no idea what the fuck they're doing there must be more elsewhere and the same goes for teenagers and people in their early 20's like myself. For christ sake this guy was running a deca only cycle, didn't know test was supposed to be the base of each cycle, and only ran his cycles for 4 weeks at a time and was wondering why he wasn't seeing any results. Ultimately its hard to put an age limit on using steroids especially when they can lie about their age or can have someone else buy them for them.
maybe the best answer to your question is to have a noob thread in the forums where only mods or people who mods see fit to give advice can post and help the youngsters who are just getting started.
AnonI think its personal choice, would i give advice to someone who is a teenager no. Did i take steroids before turning 18 yes if prohormones count. Did i do injectables before 25 no. So to answer your question no and no, but how do u tell online whos telling the truth about what? Age,sex,stregth, you cant. Its a personal choice and quite frankly maybe there should be a warning post and or sticky as to the negatives of steroids or electronic disclaimer that says by entering the site u are acknowledging you are at least 25 years of age and so forth. No one hear that i read said theyd give advice to anyone of that age just their own experiences. I said no one under 18 Never said id give advice. Its all circumstantial where u grow up, who your friends are, what your parents do. I grew up around an olympic powerlifter new about steroids at avyoung age and loved watching strongman. I also went to highschool with a bodybuilder using steroids at 16. Lee preist, as well as that duesch Boston loyd had bodybiulding parents and both used steroids very young it all circumstantial and environmental to weather or not one uses or is fascinated with using them.
Very important point Vike.
I tend to think if someone is truly a competitor or athlete who is at the top of their game , competing to make a life in their field of training and competes or does contest regularly it should fall into a grey area and the mods should make the choice. as far as letting everyone over the age of 18 be able to come here and get/give advice , I don't think its the best idea, I think its fine that they come lurk and learn. personally when I came here and wasn't 25 as ive been here for a while lurking I thought of doing a cycle I was like 23 or so I submitted a cycle log and people just said learn more not one person said a thing about my age, but once I read into the side effects and things going wrong that was enough to send me back to the drawing board. I think we should have a thread dedicated to all the side effects whether it be at a young age or old for newbs so they can really see the problems that can arise , or why we preach have your bodyfat lower so the sides aren't intensified , or the risks of not taking an AI , or running orals for too long and the liver risks and what happens when its too late etc etc.but just as it has been said below I know plenty of people younger then me who own homes , done countless hours in schooling , have awesome careers and have proved they aren't just another fuckwit young person, just as I know older people who are a total fucking mess blaming the world for their problems , don't work and doesn't care to ever work , mooching off others etc etc . If I come across someone younger then me who wants to use steroids I tell the risk verses the rewards and the consequences of abuse in any way shape or form at their age , I used to flip out when they fought back or acted an ass now I try to reason with them as much as I can no matter how hard , even if silently in my head im screamin you fuckwit. so all in all I think its a case by case that the mods can dictate who is ready and who isn't.
That is the statement i was looking for................. but the resounding factor of "lets the MODS decipher" is very prominent over and over in this thread, believe me we are banging our heads together trying to resolve this age old problem..... and if we choose wrong we become the "whipping boys" once again......... i dont get stressed easily but this age thing is really starting to do my head in!............ i am getting to the stage were i think we should stay as we are and change absolutely nothing to be honest.
In terms of eroids providing steroid advice, what is the difference between a 22 year old in amazing shape with a competition history and a 22 year old knucklehead that proposes a completely inappropriate cycle and tells us he's gonna do it anyway no matter what we say? Are the steroids better for the health and well being of the competitive bodybuilder than they are for the gym rat? The bodybuilder might even be looking at us to cosign higher risk cycles since he's evolved his AAS use to that stage and the gym rat well he's gonna start his AAS career with the rest of the kids on the first cycle Tren train. I think the truth of the matter is that steroids are not good for either young man and as far as eroids' public policy on the matter - we're not going to be complicit with either one of them in terms of counseling them on how to effectively use PEDs. I don't see that changing the official position of eroids on the age matter takes the community forward. The public position remains the same and the rigor to which that is enforced taken as a whole or on a case by case basis is at the discretion of the leadership team just like any rule on this site is. What you don't want is a rule to be "fuzzy" - if that happens, every kid's case will be pleaded before the mod team and I don't think there are enough mods or enough bandwidth to accommodate that.
I am a younger person myself, but I have been lifting consistently since I was in junior high and that is the reason I began to look into AAS. I totally agree that people who do not have years of experience in lifting, dieting, and the overall lifestyle choices needed to see meaningful, safe, and progressive gains should not be taking AAS.
But, I went to a gym for roughly a year near a uni and the place was plagued with pro-hormones, oral only cycles, and so much bro-science you could fill the library of congress. I would never discuss my personal info with people at the gym but I was asked often about substances and when I offered any advice that someone did not want to hear I encountered two types of people:
1) Oh, this guy seems to have his shit together and is trying to help me, thanks man kinda people.
and
2) Bull shit man, I asked for advice but I only want to hear the advice I was hoping to hear people.
I think it all comes down to maturity and knowledge and I think you guys do a great job trying to educate everyone on here but you shouldn't get frustrated at yourselves or anyone frustrated with you.
"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink." I think that holds a lot of weight in this debate.
+3 bro.... good points.
For me that's the safest way. 25 cut off or show me something to convince me otherwise (pic etc).
I cannot see a responsible other way that doesn't make things more labour intensive for mods.
I have always pushed for pics.... now it seems it is becoming even more of an importance before we let loose with a torrent of knowledge that can be potentially seriously abused.
If there is an exception to the under 25 rule, that really is the only way to keep things from getting out of hand. Personally I think it's a waste of all the Mods valuable time (in most cases). I think it should be a hard and fast rule and no exceptions. Otherwise you are always going to have problems, you'll be spending your time trying to decipher who deserves what and issues and this will never be solved. Just my .02 cents.
I don't envy your position, but I do greatly appreciate it.
I have to agree with you brother........... i think you just helped me make my mind up over the stand i will take when this becomes a topic up for votes in the MOD forum.
Another thing to bear in mind with these youngsters is that a large percentage of them will be passing ships in the night!....... meaning i cannot see them still training or even interested in gym work when proper careers and families start to appear...... most people say i am an enigma because i have never ceased since i started training aged 18 even through building my business and marriages etc etc my passion is still blazing.
That is so annoyingly true. So many of these youngsters come here and ask for help, make a giant stink about the whole thing and then disappear for good. How about "stick around, stay a while, learn something."
And yes, you truly are an enigma and are leading the way for the rest of us.
18?! fuck that. when i was 18 i never seen an illicit drug in person even. most 18 year olds are still dependents. they need more life experience, and a few more years at the absolute earliest. and that is if they truly have their shit together. i had my training and dieting down at 18, but the concept of using drugs to enhance it that early is bizarre to me. i do believe a few of us out there do have the maturity to use roids before 25 tho. even a gifted young athlete at the age of 18 should give them-self a little more time to enhance their abilities naturally.
I didn't touch on age because I will follow whatever board policy is. The age factor is as much of mental maturity as it is physical. I think 25 is a happy medium in both categories. It can tip either way. You can have a physically mature body, but not mentally, and vise versa. I would think that you would rather have someone who is mature enough to handle their use and be responsible than the athletically gifted who will take anything and everything because they know their physical attributes are superior. I don't know what the proper age is, but I have a hard time with anyone under 23 (and that is pushing it), because they haven't had many life experiences yet. Like I said I look more towards mental maturity than physical.
At 25 they should have a little bit of life experience, should be on their path (whatever it may be) and they "should" be mentally responsible enough to make the call. My own personal opinion is I would never have used AAS in my 20's and never even considered it until my late 30's when you really do feel your youth slipping away. I will not be advising anyone under 25 to use, I will help them as far as PCT goes or AI's if they do find themselves in trouble but that is all.
I agree, I know I wasn't mature enough my first couple of cycles. Took some years to educate myself. It's like my Dad said to me one time when I told him I was going to get a street bike. He said wait until you are married and have kids, and live for someone other than yourself. Then decide if you still want one. Needless to say I have no interest in one now. He knew at that time I was not mature enough to own one. He would have probably been scraping me off of the pavement somewhere.
Here you go Nitti, another one in the grey area potentially.
http://www.eroids.com/forum/steroids-qa/steroid-cycles/what-to-run#comme...
I've asked this lad to put up a pic and we'll take it from there.
Edit - has now put up a pic and I won't be giving cycle advice in this instance. Plenty more can be done here before gear is on the table.
Tink22Anyone who's willing to educate their self on the subject. I've been reading about hormones for on for about 3 years now. A day hasn't gone by where I don't get on this or another site to read around and find stuff to make me think. so I don't agree with the age thing. I'm under 25. if you're willing to educate I say go ahead.
people get shot down around here almost immediately not being given the chance to learn, rather taught. Granted there is much info every corner of the net and if you come with basic question maybe you shouldn't be using. Idk good question though.
I'm a powerlifter offseason and bodybuilder during season.. I love every second of it, I have nothing but true unconditional love for it....
With all this inconsideration, I would put them to the test... Run them through some basic to moderately complex dieting and training questions, if they pass.... Move on to the steroid aspect, find out their psychological intentions, if they truly plan on sticking with it, and some basic understanding questions about steroids, and how they directly impact your body... if they pass the test, toss it up on the MOD board, and get a overall vote on the matter... +2
viking is right they are the anithesis of each other.. from training philosophy right down to the diet.. I d love to combine the diet of the powerlifter and train like the body builder (with some heavy heavy days of course) and end up looking like the body builder but ... that is like walking in the middle of the street. If you dont pick a side you are going to end up getting hit by a truck ..
Please read the comment I wrote in response to Vikings comment, I don't want to write all that out again LOL
I did ;-)
All that will achieve is a core that is way too thick to ever be competitive as a Bodybuilder, and a big arse that has o purpose but drag behind you cleaning the floor............ you need to decide which sport you really want to excel in bro............ you cannot do both if you have a desire to be an aesthetic balanced comp Bodybuilder.
I remember reading and watch documentary about people like Franco Columbu and Mike Mentzer being off season powerlifting... I'm not really focused on the sport of powerlifting, but I wanna be like Ronnie Coleman for example, strong powerlifting foundation then turned into a competitive bodybuilder. I not only wanna look big and strong, but I want to be STRONG and have real dense thick functioning muscle, and the only way to get it; is through focusing on your three core lifts; from everything I read bro. I know I'm not huge bro, but I'm extremely dense, solid; it's kinda hard to see in my pictures, but I can feel it; when I checking myself out and I want to continue to build on that. I have the upmost respect for you and your opinion Viking, you're living my dream brother, but I really need to do what my heart is telling me to bro, and that is to follow what the boys from the 70's did. Dorian Yates has a really thick core and looks dynamite, but I know I will have to make a choice to focus my efforts solely on bodybuilding, and not spread myself to thin and lose focus of my dreams.. Thank you for your input my friend, I will really reconsider my approach and see what I can do to get the results I want and to refrain from destroying my aesthetics. A question if I might Viking, I've heard it from a million people deadlifts thickens your waist and it will ruin your V taper, if that's true how come the guys in the 70's had the greatest V-shape?
Good luck to you............... i dont do books bro,i do real life and when i stopped doing powerlifting type stuff i started to win trophys.......... my people follow my orders to the letter and they are all winners..... not one of my people has ever not got a top 6 placing (usually top 3s or winner)............ Ooooops sorry i tell i lie..... Suze pulled 7th in the Universe, but just being in that level of competition is an achievement in itself.
Not here to argue or influence you in any way........... you must do what you believe...... that is the individualism that goes hand in hand with all our own personal Genetics.
I understand completely Viking, let me think about it for a few days and I'll shoot you a PM, if you have a little time to chit chat about it bro. Thank you my friend.
Ronnie Coleman in my estimation is one of the best powerlifters turned bb'er that there is ...
But true powerlifters, as you know, don't lift for the pump .. or to get big or to look good.. and I walk that line.. there is just something about putting on more weight and pushing for that point where you can just keep adding it on.. that said the look and feel of body building can't be beat either.. and so my big compromise is to lift heavy and power cycle when I feel strong and return to bodybuilding when I don't.. it hasn't done me wrong yet Champ ..
This is what I live by religiously... You can look at your calendar anytime of the year, and know exactly what I'm working... I only really ego lift, opps I mean powerlifter on my squat, bench press and deadlift... I get my pump... I pyramid up and then all the way back down, then I do my 5/3/1 for strengthen. I incorporate both training methods at the same time, I literally spend 4 hours a day working out.. my days off work, I live there. I go heavy every single day...
http://boldanddetermined.com/2011/12/01/the-old-school-70s-bodybuilding-...
Franks a deep thinker
That's a secret. Ssshhhh, truth is Frank is a dumb brute. When Al Capone (BFG) wants someone in the ground, he calls Frank Nitti!
you forgot powerlifters....;-)
I damn sure did. I'll fix that right now sis. And a very good point because a lot of power liters look like crap
LOL that's because the are forever bulking... the guys I know; that powerlift... they eat anything.. cakes, cookies, pies....
thats right .. I just went to the cup cake shop and got 4 of those babies for 4 bucks and some change EACH... I smashed one in the car ..LOL..
Kinda hurt my feelings -.- LMAO
I will tell you who shouldn't be on roids. These "pro tags", look at em all buff and good looking (no homo) italian, Phil 113KG, bodybuilder,polishmob and that trenbolic guy sheesh. We get it your huge you Win the game! Share the wealth! I look malnourished standing next to these guys! THESE ARE THE GUYS, THAT DONT NEED TO BE TAKING STERIODS! There, i said it, whew.
The one thing unique about steroids is that people use them for different paths. I guess there are justification for every group on the list, except kids. There hormones are changing and really don't need them to grow at that age. When I was in high school years ago other students accused me of juicing but never touched it till long after high school. But I do think steroids aren't for people that have obesity, or trying to lose weight. For the life of me I can not understand why a fat person would want to mess with steroids, maybe someone trying to retain muscle while they lose a FEW pounds, but for most it would be just asking for trouble.
Great thread as usual Nitti.
I'll touch on my some of my opinion briefly. Again, just an opinion.
I feel any grown man/woman ( by grown I fully agree with the general concensus of 25 years old, although that does not necessarily ensure maturity) can really do whatever they please with their bodies/lives.
That being said. Those adults have to be aware they will have to live with the choices they make and the consequences that come with them. Which any mature adult should understand.
As far as the question of "who should use AAS?". Any answer to that is really personal opinion. (Again, with the exception of children).
There will always be someone using gear, too early, using too much gear, not taking precautions, using compounds they shouldn't.....
Life's all about choices.
I like the stance eroids has on safety in regards to age, compounds, dosages and whatnot and abide by it and I never hand out any advice that would be against the grain or dangerous.
So my answer to "Who should use AAS?"?
Grown, mature adults who are aware of the choice they are making and the consequences it may or may not have.
BEST ANSWER I HAVE EVER HEARD HANDS DOWN!! Simple and direct!
first nice post man. I agree with a lot that you've said , jesus I would die doing a minute of a heavy bag let alone a speed bag lmao. anyways, I do whole heartedly agree performance enhancing drugs are for all athletes in general and it is not my place to say if they're ready to use or not. it is however our place at eroids to know their previous cycles if any , and their diet because no matter what type of athlete you are or why your using performance meds gear helps speed up protein synthesis so therefor you need to eat to build or have fuel for energy. dropping weight for a fight is serious shit as I have a friend who is pretty intense and also fights at a national level dropping 20 pounds to make weight is no joke, just as it isn't to get on a stage. but what I will not sign off on or condone is people who are not trt, or prescribed due to muscle wasting , or an athlete who use gear when they do not need it , when a healthy consistent diet and a training routine of some sort with cardio will get them there just as well will it be harder? sure it will, but strength comes from within and if you want to achieve your goal you will achieve it. for example, as my wife and I are trainers it would be like someone asking for our input on their goals saying I want to lose this little bit of belly fat and build muscle "lol every ones dream" an them saying it will be hard are there any "supplements" they can take to make it easier? I cant stand that there is no easy way for any athlete sure are there compounds that due different things and supplements too by all means yes , but it doesn't mean if you do more of one of those you can slack off on your training or your diet. or the people who find that once they come off its not fun anymore or don't have that drive anymore due to coming off , like I said the strength to achieve any goal for any athlete comes from within. as far as age ive seen guys onstage as a super heavy at pro qualifiers that have won, just as ive seen very competitors in the Olympics , and football etc etc . there is a difference between an athlete and an average joe who thinks it'll be easier to use a little gear to lower their bf for the beach, or to get a muscular physique , or toned etc etc ( I hate that word btw lol) I don't agree with that. if you have a consistent diet and you've been training for your goals for years and you are that caliber of an athlete when the times right sure research and consider performance enhancers. but to use gear to just get into shape, no I don't agree, you got out of shape with poor diet and decisions get back in shape with diet and correct decisions, if you've been in an accident an your under therapy its a grey area and it depends on situation. that's all I have for now I might be missing something.
PallMallPersonally I think there should be more disclaimers about the potential risks involved (regardless of age)
Beyond that I believe the more real world experience the better. Knowledge is important to anyone considering Steroids and most of the problems people have had that Ive personally encountered are due to incorrect or incomplete understanding of a substanve.
I agree. Good point
Great post. I haven't had the pleasure of talking to you quite yet but I like what I read. From what I posted in the mentioned thread I believe that my stance is clear. I for one do not believe that age (besides children under 18 who do not have a harmful disease helped by AAS) or specific sport should determine whether a person uses AAS or not. All athletes can benefit from AAS and although I am considered to be in the sport of bodybuilding I do not hate on athletes of another sport who use AAS. AAS is clearly not only used for looks but for performance enhancement as it has been used in many of the sports that take place in the olympics.
As for me, I believe the choice to use AAS is an individuals choice but it absolutely makes me crazy when I see someone who wants that perfect beach body and aren't far off and still choose to use AAS because they do not want to put in the work. I have spent hours planning out my training, diet, and endless hours on a stairmaster trying to achieve that perfect bikini body. Yes I did it for a show but I also did it for myself and not until I decided to make the jump to physique did I even think about using AAS. All of my shows thus far have been performed through sheer dedication, perseverance, and determination. This is why it absolutely drives me insane when I see people who want the beach body extremely fast and choose to use an ass load of gear in order to get there.
I think what should determine whether a person uses AAS, is why are you doing it? Can your goals be achieved naturally? Are you wanting to take AAS because you want the results faster? If you can answer these questions honestly to yourself, take in all of the information you can find about AAS, and live with the consequences of using AAS and the decisions you are making. Then have at it. I just find it to be a slap in the face to myself and my sport when I see pictures of people who are not far off from their goals but choose to not put in enough time and effort to get it done. Yes I know that is taking something personally when I shouldn't but there is a part of me that simply can't help it.
And thank you for the input btw.