Question for the Vets: Adjusting to New T Ester???
Hello all you juice monkeys and protein princes! I have a question that I can't seem to find an existing thread on. If there is one and I missed it, my apologies.
My question actually has several parts, but I think it'll be helpful to give a little background first.
I have a TRT doctor who prescribes pharmaceutical grade Test Cyp. My Rx dosage is 200mg per week (in split doses) - standard stuff. About 5 weeks ago, I placed an order from one of the highly recommended/verified sources on this here site for a bunch of T Enan (Cyp wasn't available at the time) and ancillaries for estrogen control/support. I received my order swiftly and all was well in the world.
My plan was to start my cycle @ 400mg T per week (split doses; AI's on hand as needed) using my Rx T-Cyp and then switch over to my UGL T-Enan. (*I've always had great results from moderate T cycles because my training and nutrition is spot on, and because I've generally had access to pharma grade T. Just thought I'd mention before I get grilled... I believe in the old adage, "Less is more.")
Anyways! All was going swimmingly and according to plan until week 5 when I switched T sources/esters. All else being equal, the minute I pinned my UGL T, shit has hit the proverbial fan: libido is non-existent, I'm losing weight, strength, and my hard earned gains... Which brings me to my questions.
A lot of bro-science claims it takes several weeks for Test E to 'kick in'. I, frankly, don't buy that - especially if your blood levels are already elevated. The Cyp & Enan esters are nearly identical in terms of half-life; when I inject Rx T, I can feel it within 12 hours. So far, I have yet to feel SH*T from my UGL source's T.
I'm not writing this to blast or review my supplier - they are one of the most recommended and thoroughly enjoyed sources on this site. I'm writing because I'm wondering if it's possible that the body isn't able to use/recognize the new source of T for some strange physiological reason? Has anyone ever had this happen to them? Does it take 'longer' for UGL product to 'kick in' because the body is adjusting to the new solution?
It's entirely possible that the T I ordered isn't what it claims to be, but I'll have no way of knowing without having it tested or getting bloods done (the latter of which I have) and I'm currently choosing to give my supplier the benefit of the doubt. My main question for all of you homies out there is whether anyone has any theories, advice, and/or experience with the phenomenon of switching T esters and noticing a change.
Thank you for all of your time and input!
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Update:
Just got a call from a very freaked out TRT doctor telling me my total T level is over 4000 and my free T is around 120 (my last normal reference range was 1260 and 23). My estradiaol was sky high as well (114).
Good news is my source's T is definitely legit haha..
What's interesting to me is that those absurdly high numbers don't reflect how I look/feel, so I have a suspicion something else is at play. **For anyone with more knowledge/info on the importance of T/E ratios and or metabolic byproducts like DHT, feel free to jump in.
According to one source I read, the appropriate range for estradiol is calculated by dividing total T / 14 to establish an upper limit and again by 20 (T / 20) for a lower limit. That's supposedly your 'optimal range'.
With a 4000 free T , those calculations give me an E range of 200-285. So even despite being absurdly high, by this guy's calculations, my E is still considered low in relation to my T.
If the balance between the two is of paramount importance as opposed to the total/free, that would probably explain why I'm not feeling the effects of such a high reading.
And for all those concerned - I am not pinning anything for awhile because even the meatiest meathead in me knows health comes first.
Most of the time
Rustyhooker200mg has you at 4000.
And 4000 free test.
And some b.s. about e2 calculations
grabs popcorn
I didn't say I was on 200mg my brother. That was TRT dose..
I may have injected several 500mg doses of the UGL gear over 2 weeks because I was a) not feeling anything from it and b) being impatient and noobish.
Don't get all hate filled on me
Rustyhooker'My plan was to start my cycle @ 400mg T per week'
So now you're actually on cycle when it wasn't posted above.
'I may have injected several 500mg doses of the UGL gear over 2 weeks because I was a) not feeling anything'
Do tell...
frontloaded his frontloads lol
RustyhookerHaha! Placebo effect is strong here.
Elvis has left the building.
Lol That's some fast acting test e if he just switched from 200 to 400.
Super fast turn around on bloods too. Got them and results all today if I'm understanding this right? Lol
Had bloods done yesterday. The lab is 24 hrs. I didn't post until today..
Adds up to me?
RustyhookerCan i dare say...... its fyre! Lol
He simply 'plans to do 400 per week' and POOF!
As I said.. may have been a wee bit impatient and loose with the dosing.. something about 'front loading' and shit got me all excited..
Real talk I didn't feel anything from it and was losing gains/etc so I hit the panic button and pinned more. Not my finest moment but now I know
RustyhookerSo you went from trt at 200 to planning 400 and cant remember but you may have hit a few 500mg pins and somehow you're at 4000 free test
Bullshit...
Lol We gotta get a line on that shit
RustyhookerAgree!! Lol!
Get a copy of that test and post it so others can see, edit out your name and address and lab. Make sure it includes shbg as well.
Will do!
27 and TRT huh?
Sometimes truth is stranger than fiction.
Tested >200 multiple times in my early 20's (way prior to any gear use). Finally hopped on the TRT bandwagon; now when I cycle I cruise on my TRT dose rather than opt for a full PCT with Nolva/Clomid/HCG/AI (although I've done them successfully before. Just feel better being on T all the time with my current work/life situation, which can fuck up the best laid plans of PCT & OCT living).
Now nothing you say makes any sense, either you are on doctor prescribed trt or not, you dont pct when on trt. Im done here. Credibility with me just went down the toilet.
Only bloods will answer as to what's happening internally
As for the compounds.... purely speculation.... buuuuut .... bioidentical versus ugl made from phytoestrogens....
I'd check if the TRT stuff is bioidentical. Check info slip or ask doctor when getting bloods done
See update post*
Cheers mate - I had bloods drawn last week as well as on Monday to see a) get a portrait of what's going on and b) to see if there's any significant change going on internally that would explain the symptoms of what's going on.
The TRT Test Cyp is manufactured by West-Ward Pharmaceuticals and is a USP, CIII controlled substance. It comes in a nice little white prescription box with the lot/expiration info and has the Rx info slip. 100% legitimate bioidentical. My TRT doctor also happens to be one of the department heads at our local hospital, so I highly, highly, highly doubt he'd order anything other than bioidentical.
Thanks for your input bro!
I should also mention that when you inject e or Cyp. .. it reaches max plasma levels at 1.5-2 days if I remember correctly and can begin to aromatise immediately
So although you you don't 'feel' a kick, your body still does what the body does
The whole 5 weeks to kick in thing is in reference to reaching the steady state for any given dose based on half life. Peak plasma levels peak upwards over time.
Totally understand and agree. I guess what I'm curious about is why - once you've reached a steady peak plasma concentration after several weeks (in this case 5) of dosing - would I experience a percipitous drop in all of the desirable symptoms of having elevated T (increased nitrogen retention, libido, mood, energy, etc.) by simply switching esters? Especially between two that are practically identical?
My main issue is the amount of variables involved: it's not like I'm going from pharma cyp to pharma enanthate. If that were the case and this still happened, I think we could make a strong case that the body takes time to adjust to different esters. Since I switched to an UGL source, now I'm faced with the possibility it's bunk gear as well. That being said, I highly doubt this supplier would stay in business or have such good reviews if his product was less than reliable.
The only other variable I can isolate is a single dose of Aromasin (from the same supplier of the T enan) that I took right at the same time I switched from pharma T to UGL T. That shit crushed my estrogen and I will be sticking to Adex from here on out unless I'm running 7000mg of Dbol with 10 gallons of Test (hyperbole intended). That being said, every source I come across about crashed estrogen says it takes about a week if you're on cycle to let it recover. I haven't stopped pinning but I'm still symptomatic of low estrogen, which begs the question of whether the UGL T I'm using is working/bunk/or I am the worlds slowest manufacturer of aromatase enzyme.
The signs of low estrogen AND high estrogen are the same. Here are the NORMAL range levels for men
20–55 pg/mL (2.0–5.5 ng/dL) and 10-40 pg/mL (1.0-4.0 ng/dL) depending on the endocrinologist but both are always going to stay the same for testing.. I keep seeing people say they crashed their estro because they were at 10pg or 1nl or even 20 or its too high. That is not crashed estrogen that is normal. I honestly think people put way too much emphasis on crashing their estrogen and the best part is they do not even do a blood test they just "feel" it or "joe blow from the gym" told them they crashed it because of whatever mood they are in.
A single dose of Aromasin will not "crush" your estrogen even if you were already low as it was. Aromasin starts to work within 12 hours but full plasma takes 7-10 days. If you always had low estrogen then whatever Doctor decided to put you on HRT while you already have signs of low E2, would have been giving you a roller coaster ride. When increasing test in people with low E2, the opposite effect happens, you lose erections, you lose desire, and you actually gain fat versus the opposite.
Here is the article in case you want something to read:
New England Journal of Medicine (2013;369:1011-1022)
There has been no recent findings to negate that study, I am looking for them myself as I take my pre-courses.
those guidelines are just that.. guidelines and if the ugl's test aromatizes quickly then you are still dumping estrogen into the system ... I've seen people take weeks to months to recover from crashing their estrogen
Awesome news!
If bloods support this analysis, any tips? HCG?
no hcg unless LH FSH and SHBG is in the basement ....
estrogen .... she's a bitch ... wait and see what the labs say
Thanks love.
Ps awesome stats! You sound like one bad ass bitch!
That was incredibly disrespectful.
no worries felony I don't tend to take much personal that rolls off a keyboard truth is if he saw me for real he probably wouldn't talk to me ;-)
Thank you
See update post above*
No I wasn't suggesting the doc was using anything other than bio id test. I suspected he was which is great but wonder if the ugl T you added to the equation is made from phytoestrogens and is aromatising heavily... (made from soy or yam phytosterols that is)
You get me?
Edit: ignore this! Speculating up the wrong tree!!!
Bioidentical test is made from soy/yams/etc. All lab created test is bioidentical. Bioidentical is a marketing term and all pharma and ugl test is bioidentical assuming it is actually testosterone. Altered structure Stuff like methyltestosterone is not bioidentical. Bioidentical test is simply synthetic test that matches testosterone molecular structure.
I should edit this: esters are changing the molecular structure and I believe can be patented, so technically not bioidentical until the ester is cleaved off. But it is then identical in those cases. But as long as its test and not methylated or altered to make something else, Test is test.
Ahaaaaa! This is really interesting,
Ok so from what you are saying, it's all coming from plant sources (due to comparability of the molecules I guess) but they alter with ester to change molecules
So where does that leave us with the patented hormones? Surely there us a non-ester related difference, what with esters being around for so long?
Also, what do we know about UGL production methods? And I mean production process prior to adding to oils etc... so synthesis. Presuming the Asian stuff is derived from soy largely ??
You're saying bio-id is a marketing gimmick??
Also a qurstion that jumps to mind... if test is test.... why has hormone therapy in women and TRT in men (correct doses etc) led to so many lawsuits (androgel etc)
Is it the esters? Or something else - standard doses with relatively steadyvstream/curve versus the daily flux??
Thanks for setting me straight fella! Knowledge is power!
Not sure how ugl test raws are made but you can't make test without the stuff from soy/yams/etc, and It's evidently super easy and cheap to do so it wouldnt make sense to be anything but the same exact process as pharma. The big difference between the two obviously being whether or not the raws are turned into finished product in a government certified/regulated facility, ensuring that's its accurately dosed, clean, etc. but all Test raws comes from the same method and are the same molecule (assuming it actually is what the label says). From what I understand, as long as the molecule matches testosterone it doesn't matter what it came from, it will behave the same.
The reason I added the ester thing is just because the whole reason they started fucking with the molecule (other than adding an ester to lengthen halflife) was because they can't patent what our body makes. I believe the original esters can be patented, so I added that (although they're obviously long expired). They can also patent methyltest and other compounds like nandrolone, dbol etc that are derived from testosterone, because our body doesn't make it, but they're structurally similar so that's synthetic vs bioidentical. Essentially, is it test or is it something that's almost Test.
Honestly not sure about the lawsuit thing, but the marketing term issue I said only applies to test, HGH, and any other hormone our body makes naturally. But the bioidentical issue actually is a thing with female hormone replacement therapy. Weve pretty much always had straight up test, but for a while women didn't have access to bioidentical hormones (and from what I understand some still aren't prescribed bioID), it was all almost estrogen, or almost e2, or almost progesterone, or almost etc etc, and that's where the extra sides and behaviors came in from pharmaceutical products that weren't bioidentical.
In regards to androgel and testim, they are actually bioidentical hormones straight up from the get go, because there's not even an ester, but they were able to patent the delivery system. Wish I could say I knew anything else about the lawsuits, but people can sue for anything nowadays lol
i had a really crazy post for you there but got logged out and lost it!
I'll just say, Im reading the history section of a book called Steroid Chemistry at a Glance
"The 15 mg of pure crystalline testosterone isolated in 1931 came from about 15 000 l of urine. "
Talk about taking the piss!
hahahaha holy shit dude. that's crazy. We've come a long way lol
Or HAVE we?! Lmao
;-)
Shutup know it all... Hehe.
lol I deserve that
Got it. I can PM you the UGL source if you're interested - maybe you have some experience with their gear (or have any insight on their stuff)?
Let me know amigo
27 and on TRT, what were you diagnosed with?
Do you go to a clinic or see an endocrinologist?
I sure hope your doctor is giving you pharmaceutical test.
Feeling a shot of test in 12 hours especially a long one like cyp or enanthate is not possible unless you are having estrogen issues, Ive been on TRT for almost 5 years and never feel one of my shots besides pip.
What was your last blood test show for your free test, total test, E2, lsh and fsh?
As I replied to a bro above, my TRT test is 100% pharma grade (West-Ward Pharmaceuticals). My prescribing doctor has a clinic and also happens to be one of the department heads at our local hospital. No question about the quality of his stuff.
My doc & I aren't exactly sure why, but I don't seem to produce adequate levels of T on my own. Had bloods drawn when I was 22 and my levels were just above 200. When I finally jumped on TRT in 2015, they hadn't budged. Could be from a number of things, but we aren't entirely sure. I'm definitely an anomaly and probably one of his youngest clients.
I've suspected E2/estrogen as the culprit too. Once I get those labs back it'll really shed some light on that - I have a feeling I'm way too low right now and my T to E ration is skewed. I took a dose of Aromasin from my UGL supplier and that shit nuked me.
I'm at work right now but I'll dig up my old labs when I get home. Cheers bro.
There could be several things going on ... one that comes to mind given your description of symptoms is LH and FSH could have gone wonky .... and that can and does happen more often than most people think so even if your test levels are up when those two things tank you will feel like shit .... two things GET LABs .. check LH FSH and Estrogen .... all three of those things when out of order will do a number on you. Even if the test from the ugl was no good you wouldn't tank like that after 1 or even 2 weeks .. test levels compound ... I think if you look for posts from cry_havoc he has some great explanations on how it all works
I forgot to include SHBG as well that is also a possible issue
ps - I also think LH and FSH, along with estrogen, are the culprits. I was managing my estrogen the first 5 weeks with Arimidex and was feeling fantastic. Unfortunately I tried one dose of Aromasin on the well meaning but misguided advice of a fellow gym rat and it nuked my E2. Either it was the world's most powerful single dose of Aromasin or I am extremely sensitive to it and don't produce aromatase that quickly. I haven't touched an AI since (been 9 days since the Aromasin).
As I said to two of our other brothers, had blood drawn last week and again this Monday. Once I get those numbers I'll post them.