+ 25 Open letter: Fair review rankings
A source flags his review with these comments.
I'd like to report what I believe is an unfair rating. It's about the review from 'exfanboy' The reviewer explicitly stated their experience was "perfect", yet intentionally left a 4/5 rating, not because of any issue with our products or service, but because they believe moderators are skeptical of 5-star reviews.
You can see his message yourself: "exfanboy:No, personally I think it was all perfect. But Greg/the mods always talk crap about reviews being nothing but 5 stars. So I don’t give out all 5s anymore even though I had the perfect experience"
We work very hard to satisfy our customers, and it's discouraging to receive a lower score despite delivering exactly what the customer says was a perfect experience. Ratings should reflect the actual experience with the vendor, not perceptions about the forum's review system. Thank you for your attention in this matter!
First off a 3/5 and 4/5 is a very good review. Look how much you guys spoiled these snowflakes. You turned them all into cucks. A pox on your houses for allowing this to happen. Bravo for "exfanboy" stepping up and adulting these spoiled kids.
The reviews flat line to mean absolutely nothing if everyone is is ignoring the language attached to the stars. Review rankings should be stoic, unbiased, critical and honest.
The free text boxes in the review is where you can express yourself freely (following the rules and guidelines) TD pics is another area where you can express gimp like devotion not to mention the sources discussion page.
My heart bleeds for this simp of a source. So here’s my call to action. Do not spoil these children. Cowboy up and start adulting. Make the 3 and 4 star review the standard and the 5/5 ranking the exception. Imagine how hard they'll cream their pants when you do give out a 5/5.
It's scarcity that creates value. You guys have over printed the 5 and devalued it so much it means absolutely nothing.
Let's change that.
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This was a complete fabrication.
I pasted the actual content and explained the way it was intended to be understood.
Semantics. Rather than saying ok I get it. You interjected your interpretation. Why? Are you trying to win points or understand the process? If you want to win an "argument" go for it, you win.
And no, I'm not trying to win points with anything. If you don't want me or others giving so many 5 star reviews, then the parameters have to be clearly laid out. I can't be asked to give my opinion on something based on my feelings and then be told I'm wrong because I felt too good about my experience. Or because the wording in the parameters is too vague.
I'm trying to lay out/explain those parameters now. Not to be adversarial. I don't care how you interpreted it or how the source wants you to interpret it.
How is calling me fanboy while putting words in my mouth not being adversarial? Did I do that to you? And what exactly are you trying to insinuate by repeating what a source might want?
Because it became clear you lost focus of the discussion and slipped into contrarian mode. Wasting my time, making things up and arguing stupid semantics.
The source in this post didn't deliver early he delivered as advertised. The customer was satisfied a 4 was appropriate and clearly the source was trying to get a 5 which was not appropriate.
What point did I make that was off the discussion? And so your telling me that no one can actually disagree with you, that if someone is arguing against something your saying that they are solely being contrary? Little narcissistic. And how is it arguing semantics by pointing out that there is the written rule, which is vague enough for interpretation, and saying that its not very fair to expect us to inherently know what is in your head about what you meant by it. Even spelling it out on here, ok, you really think everyone, including new accounts, is going to read the review guidelines and then stop and think "hey, I better search around just incase there's a thread where a mod further explains what they actually mean by these"?
Reread the post.
Using "what-aboutisums" You've dragged us down a rabbit hole that is no where near the original point. It's a guideline not a rule.
You know the manipulation I'm talking about, you've experienced it yourself. Which means, you're not consistantly making 5/5 reviews.
"Its a guideline, not a rule".... sounds like semantics. And I didn't drag anything anywhere. You are the one making it sound like these guidelines have a hard definition based on what you "meant" for the wording. I'm saying that what your trying to make sound like "rules", aren't, because they are open for interpretation. If you want less 5 star reviews, then we need more specific wording and actual rules that would set harder parameters for giving 5 star reviews.
We could easily just agree to disagree. Not sure why I needed to get called "fanboy" and have intentions assigned to me.
We have 5/5 reviews primarily because sources pressure people into it. Not because of nuances. There’s no "rule" about not making 5/5 reviews. The post provides the guidelines as a proper mindset and ultimately places the choice on the reviewer. My comments are encouraging self governance. Period.
It was a retort, perhaps an unfortunate one, on your insistence of turning this into a bigger thing than intended. This reply of yours is still more of that. Reread the post. Have the last word. I'm done.
And where did I imply that there was a rule against 5 star reviews? Or that your implying a rule against 5 star reviews? I didn't Greg.
I'm not the one escalating this. You made a post about what you think is a problem, I gave my opinion on how to solve the problem. Instead of having any point as to why my opinion wouldn't work, you just get pissy.
So me offering my opinion on a solution is "overthinking" or turning this into something bigger than intended? Ok... so what was the intention? Was it simply to berate us? "My comments are simply to encourage self governance".. I would encourage you to reread our exchange and take your ego out of it.
Explained the way it was intended to be understood?
So like I already said, you are expecting us to inherently be on the same page with something thats completely subjective. We aren't mind readers Greg.
And why did I interject my interpretation? Because you gave yours.
Your explanation is not a written rule, it is YOUR interpretation of how the content should be understood according to YOU.
Did I? Or as a mod, did I explain/clarify the review template. To your point it would be impossible to expect everyone on a global site to have the same understanding.
Well since it is not a written rule, your interjecting your interpretation. So maybe it should get written down so anyone confused in the future doesn't have to find this thread to figure out what is meant.
Fine. You phrase the perfect pithy prompt that no one from any country using any language will not misunderstand the 5 levels of service represented by the prompts and I'll see if we can get your contribution inserted into the review.
You're overthinking this and derailing the whole point of this post.
If I wrote something and you asked for clarification my clarification isn't my opinion or my interpretation. It is my statement clarified. You seem to be missing that nuance.
That's completely dependent on if it's international or domestic. International one month is normal, within two weeks would be five stars for sure. For domestic, two weeks is an eternity. It takes that long for slow order processing, or using cheaper options for postage. There are several suppliers on this site that Deliver within three business days of the order, Once I actually got a package in one business day. My geography helps there, of course, But pony express priority will get most places in the United States within three days. For me, that's five stars, anything after that less than two weeks would be four stars.
Ok
ok
I didn't mean to rip off your joke. Just don't feel it today.
ok
Oh you rascal.
LOL
Ight den cuh
In the end most of the review criteria is subjective. What one deems a 3 star experience another might deem a 5 star experience.
Hence stay within the script as defined.
This is correct also guilty of it on my first review. I will say it is hard not to give the good score like my opinion of getting quality peds in exchange for my opinion is very high. Free stuff should not sway ones opinions though but also does a promo count as a "free gift"? Perhaps a posted example review and an audit period between submission and posting to check for adherence to the expectations show in the example. I will be less of a star slut moving forward.
I agree with this 100%, and I'm guilty of it as well. The reviews are a pretty unreliable barometer of true quality, and more an indicator of who hands out the most free shit.
I'm sure the mods see that there IS an unspoken pressure to provide 5/5 feedback in order to continue receiving free things in the future, and it's very easy to fall for it.
Like Greg is saying, we just gotta stand together on it and hold each other accountable. We should all be taking some time to look over new reviews and collectively police them in order to make the rankings as legitimate as possible.
What is the actual path to getting this done? I'm asking, not saying it can't be done. I just don't know how.
Well I would say the first step would be to be accountable to yourself and only post your true feelings on reviews, without allowing them to be colored by your jubilation or feelings of obligation resulting from receiving free gear, or your personal feelings about the source in general.
Second, would be taking the time to read new reviews, and tag mods, call out other members etc for shit reviews. Getting a thumbs down (or several) on your karma review is a bad deal. If everyone held each other accountable, I think the whole system could move fwd. Maybe.
What's your thoughts?
I think this is the right direction. The hard part, in my opinion, will be protecting the integrity of the system. What’s to stop Source N from encouraging enough of their supporters to go through Source Y’s reviews and mass downvote them? Having review Karma is important for promos, respect from other members and sources, and this could discourage honest reviewers from posting altogether.
Personally, I have far more paid orders than promo orders, but I rarely review the paid ones because of the 8 reviews per year limit. It’s not that I don’t have valuable feedback on those orders. I’m simply limited in what I can review. So I end up being strategic about which reviews I post to protect my karma and avoid being labeled a promo whore. I actually agree with the 8 review limit, but I do think that’s an unintended consequence.
One possible solution would be a checkbox in the review form for Paid Order or Promo. Promo reviews could count toward whatever threshold is used to identify members who primarily review promotional products, while paid reviews would stand on their own without limit. But this creates a laundry list of potential issues and conflicts.
One challenge is verification. You could require the source to verify a paid review by confirming an order number, but then what’s to stop a source from blindly approving any order number just to boost their credibility?
On the flip side, giving sources control over verification also gives them leverage over reviewers. For example, a member leaves a legitimate negative review with a real order number, and the source simply claims, “We have no record of that order,” causing the review to be removed or downgraded. Whether the claim is true or not, you’ve now created a conflict of interest where the subject of the review has influence over whether the review is considered legitimate.
Overall, I think the current system has actually been very well designed and already mitigates a lot of these issues. My guess is there’s an underlying problem the admins have been dealing with that is beyond my comprehension, because every alternative avenue I can think of seems to create a new way to game the system. The goal should be to encourage honest reviews while making it as difficult as possible for either reviewers or sources to manipulate the process. I don’t envy the people trying to solve that problem.
And the more I think about it. Internal policing as you suggested is truly the best way to solve it. True 5 star reviews should be rare. Just like a true 10 women is exceptionally rare
That is a great idea. Having some sort of marker or a way differentiate paid vs. promo reviews. @Greg is this possible?
Or what angle am I missing? The synergy of the system seems to all be balanced in a way that provokes as much interaction between source and user as possible. Maybe messing with it is a bad idea? Forgive me I'm retarded.
Just spit balling. Spit roasting I mean.
Maybe I am just a whore. You get on Eroids and shortly figure out that some karma + a bit of time = free stuff. Then maybe you think a good review might entice a source to give you free stuff. How likely would a source choose you if you had given 3 reviews and they were all a 3 star average? This is selfish and whoreish I know. Just trying to be honest. Sorting out this dilemma is difficult I have no doubt.
To be 100% truthful, I don't care if all the sources have 5 stars. My concern has been from day 1 that a large portion of the reviews themselves are completely worthless. Either they come from folks with zero karma, or they contain no useful information, etc. I know some of the mods do comment on those, but there are just so many to comment on.
In a couple of source chats, I have found multiple accounts that jump on to say "been buying from this source for 5 years" but the account has zero karma and was just created before the review and it has no activity after. So MY personal concern is quality, not whatever ratings they happen to have.
Just to be clear, there are plenty of folks who post amazing stuff, I just wish it was 90% instead of 30% or whatever.
So my motivation would be simply to help or do whatever it takes to try and get more quality across the board. I don't even think you should be able to put in a review until you have at least 5 karma.
Anyway I'll be following along to see what comes of all this. I like this place and I'd be interested in helping do whatever it takes to make it even better.
Wrong dilemma. You haven't been listening.
Ego fear tripping, "Oh my god I won't get free shit, how will I survive?!" Self imposed mental prison of scarcity.
Sovereign don't give a fuck Attitude from abundance and not need, "I have hundreds of sources to work with, each wanting me to buy from them irrespective of the ranking. I have plenty to choose from. I am respectable people trust me. My 4 is worth a dozen fanboy 5's. If others can't see that, I couldn't give a fuck."
You’re the one that isn’t listening. I’m not talking about your ideology. I’m talking about reality for 90+ percent of the people that arrive here. If you can’t recognize that, then there’s no way you can change it. Almost everyone who gets here he’s gonna care more about the free stuff than your perspective. I’m trying to talk about how we change it. But you just want to jump on my case. That’s fine, but you’re not changing a damn thing except making me think I should go back and change my 4/5 to 5/5.
Your "reality" is an illusion. You're interjecting your "reality" into my thread. Your argument is noteworthy but not relevant.
You're trying to rationalize why this won't work. I don't give a fuck if it won't work. I give a fuck about each individual. All you can do is stand up for yourself. That's all. Fuck the source, fuck the collective. There’s only one outcome for you to worry about and that's doing the right thing when it's hard and no one is looking.
My reality is just as relevant as everyone else's, including yours. You have called me names, cuck, etc. and yet I have remained respectful. You say you "give a fuck about each individual", just not this one apparently. Anyway, it's all good. I thought this was a discussion, but obviously this is "your thread", and your place. So have at it brother. Enjoy.
I never called you a cuck. If anything i might say you could choose to be one, or to continue to act like one.
Your "reality" isn't relevant TO THIS CONVERSATION. I never said it wasn't relevant to you.
You're trying to highjack the thread trying to talk about the Zeitgeist of the 90% and how impossible it would be to make this work. And you're right but that's a different topic, a topic I'm not discussing.
It’s good to be king I guess. Enjoy your crusade alone. Meanwhile I will be out here giving 5’s. Peace.
Sounds like you're part of the problem.
Childish retort.
As you say Mr moderator sir. Forgot to mention that for every 5 I will be thinking of you. All the best.
As you wish
I always thought it would be great if they upped the review count to 10, but figured out a way to limit promos to 6. That way you can get more karma a year but can't really game the system as hard and it forces more paid reviews.
When I first joined the limit was around 12 to 13 I think per year.
When you first joined, did the sources leave the reviewers alone, or has this been the culture of sources all along? To clarify, did sources PM and email reviewers to increase their ratings? Did they hold promos out like a carrot on a stick saying you have to give us a 5 star review to be considered for future promotions? Because that has been my experience with one source in particular, and it seems others here have had that experience with other sources
I would say the Sources were more relaxed when I first joined and it was rare to get PM's from them disputing what ratings they were given - I never heard from other members in PM getting bullied into changing their rating either. But over the past several years this has definitely got worse - there is even one now (who I know many have had the same experience with) where if you want to enter one of his promos he will pressure you into writing a review for a paid order you have done (which you are not obliged to do anyway) so that you can first even enter the promo - then he gets on your case asap for the review on the promo gear, so in effect he's after 2 reviews!!!
I just don't see this happening unfortunately. There is probably some psychological reason for it. I think 3 should be the starting point, or the baseline. There should be nothing wrong with a 3. Product arrives on time 3, does what it should 3, etc. If the product works better than expected, it is a 4, if it changes your life in an unexpected way, then a 5, of course.
People just don't do that, and it is not only here, it is on Amazon, etc. Some people buy a curtain or something that just hangs there and they give it a 5. Maybe we simply feel guilty unless we have a very distinct reason to be significantly unhappy or even pissed off.
I am new, but I have also noticed that if your review isn't perfect you may get contacted. This one is difficult because the line between good customer service and pushing for a better score could be blurry. Difficult topic.
One last thought that I had is that this is made even more complex by the fact that the sources are engaged in the community. Given the nature of the product, I love the fact that they are. This does make a difference for where I am most likely to spend my money. Giving some engaged source that you "like" a 3 is not an easy thing to do.
The psychology is a play on Christian guilt. Secondly you are putting yourself in a reactionary posture.
Give zero fucks about others and worry about yourself. What is the strength of your character? What are you going to do?
Sorry, just a regular dude out here doing my best and commenting from the heart. Been alive for a while and I've noticed that some things may change, other things will never change. Life is often about learning how best to focus whatever energy you have. This one won't change, but I'd love to be wrong.
It won't change if you don't. You are the architect of your reality. You are bound by ego survival instincts. Imprisoned by your own mind.
When you change that is change. You can't control what others do and you shouldn't make that the excuse for your inaction. A reason for you to "sit this one out"
If you want to continue to be the world's cuck. Do nothing.
If you want to be self sovereign and own that responsibility. Then Cowboy up.
Let's just assume for a moment that I find your argument and tone motivating, and consequently I do try to change. What % of folks are even going to read this thread, and of those that do, what % of that will actually change? Great topic, and I'll certainly put more thought into reviewing. Time will tell.