+ 11 Earning the right
Maybe a little controversial, but I've seen a few examples of members being critiqued for their choices of cycle recently. I've been here long enough to have seen most of the changes that have occurred over the years in both eroids and the recent world of AAS use. We're developing a tendency, (in places), of people having to "earn the right" to run certain compounds.
Firstly, let's remember this isn't a hardcore bodybuilding site. In fact our demographic is vast. Check out Nitti's post from December.
Stage competitors aren't that big of a part of our community. I'm one of them, but I'll tell you now there's only a handful of guys I talk to about competitive bodybuilding here. It's not a big part of who the members are and we must remember others have different goals that are aligned to what they wish to achieve. My values / opinions on cycles are utterly irrelevant to a competitive swimmer for example. Doesn't mean he/she or I are wrong, we just have different goals.
This brings me to the point. I see a repeating theme of what I'll call "earning the right". Let's take tren as an example. When I arrived, we used to say 8-10 cycles before running tren. It's a sweeping generalisation, but sensible in its premise. I followed this personally, tren was included in my 8th cycle. Here's a shock, I hated it. I still do to be honest. I enjoy being on steroids, always have done. I don't like being on tren. For me it's a necessary evil to compete. At a decent level of competition, it would be very difficult to compete without a classically struct prop / tren / mast cycle pre comp. if I didn't conoete, I'd never run it again. I've done plenty of cycles, I know a reasonable amount about steroids and I work in the pharmaceutical industry. So, I've "earned the right" to run tren right?
What about the guy who has run less cycles? What about someone who has no intentions of competing? What about a lad running low doses although he openly admits he doesn't know an awful lot. Who am I to decide if he/she has "earned the right"??????
Last thing I'm suggesting is advocating tren or any other compound inappropriately. Yesterday I told a grown man he shouldn't be using gear just because of his size and a comment he made "eat big whilst on cycle". What I'm trying to say is be aware others are trying to do different things and therefore have a different decision making process. As long as they are sensible and don't advise others to make poor decisions, adults can and will make up their own minds.
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i'm a firm believer is trying things out and seeing how they work for you AKA experimenting -- all while making informed and educated decisions, as well as being aware of possible consequences from your actions. i started running tren from my second cycle and it didn't live up to all of the negative stories that it was hyped up to be regarding rage, acne, insomnia, limp dicks or nothing. it just sculpted me out of granite and i've been a fan ever since. in this game though, at the end of the day you just gotta find out what works for you and your goals like OP said.
but it is always recommended of others to warn new comers away from the dangers of the harsher steroids for liability reasons.
I m just curious about what it is doing to your heart .. and cns.. just because you don't have any visible sides please don't assume that you are not experiencing adverse side effects.
I'm gonna confine my remark to just Tren.
I used to spend a lot of time with newcomers that thought Tren was some sort of magic compound, reviewing their cycle proposals and coming up with some sensible alternatives to Trenbolone.
I've just completely run out of steam on this one. I think you could build a small Tren library with all my forum posts on this topic. I believe if the OP has his heart set on Tren, he's gonna do it no matter what I say.
What boils my blood and is part of the Tren "saga" is the stats of the folks that want to use it. I know we don't all compete here but dang, at least have some muscle on before you break out the 19-nors. But, GH, not everyone here is a competitive BB here so I'm not sure what you mean by "have some muscle on."
Well, double dang, WTF is the shit for, after all? It was invented by the food industry to put more muscle on cattle as they grew and headed to the slaughterhouse. So that we all could enjoy a thicker steak!
So, if you tell me you have some other use for Tren other than maintaining your already thick dense frame during a prep for a comp or using it in a killer all out bulk cycle to add monster mass, what are you using it for? Strength? There are better compounds.
Well, I want to compete in physique or I am a male model - I would just say you don't need to use a compound that has a high potential of rotting out your organs while it turns you into a candidate for the psych ward. There are so many other compounds.
So, out of exhaustion, I've reached the point that - publicly - you're gonna do what you want with or without my blessing, so go do it. Everybody "has the right" to abuse their bodies as they see fit.
If you really want my opinion, send me a PM.
Sent you a FR, want to pick your brain for a bit!
RustyhookerWell said!!!
We have had many discussion about tren and I have always been grateful for the information you have given me and others here. I agree completely with your sentiments above.
I have never tried tren and I don't think I ever will. I'm a trt guy and I'm not a BB. I just enjoy improving my body and improving my health. Tren hasn't been a compound that I feel that would help me reach those goals.
Good post brother and you are right in large part. One thing I will say about tren if used responsibly is that I have seen it work very well on us older guys trying to get over the hump. I personally run it at doses that most of these guys would probably scoff at but in my albeit limited experience it has had by far the most dramatic effect at the lightest dose of any anabolic I have used. I am fortunate in that I have not had any serious mental side effects and other than night sweats only positive physical sides.
RustyhookerIf folks studied the strength charts test is 100:100 and tren is 500:500. So folks running 500 tren should realize in comparison to 2500mg test. So, why go so damn nutty?
Cause paper says one thing but real life experience says something totally different. I've ran. 100mg tren a ed so let's just say 700mg ew, that would be equlivamt to running 3500mg of test ew. That's no comparable. I have no fucking clue what 3500mg of test ew would do to me , 900mg ew is the most ive ever run and I don't see any reason to go higher. Now 3500 just cause I ran 700mg of tren? No way. Papers one thing but real life experience is totally differnt.
RustyhookerBy molecular weight...100ed is a gram of enanthate. Short esters have no weekly values.
Good post...
Good I post catalyst ,
Always a good and reasonable post by you , each there own and there own goal , I just hope honestly , they use within there goals . Always respect my friend +.1. Pege
I've been seeing that on here for a while!
Thats what it comes down to, just like every
other aspect of life, its all about decisions. Its when we see the people who aren't adults making bad decisions that we should step in, and someone always does which is
great.
Nice post Cat.
I've been following this thread for awhile now reading the comments and what not. My take on it is I think many here research and get to know each compound , what it does , what its used for etc etc and if they have the experience by all means if your goals require it use it. But, with that being said I think there are many here that do zero research , that copy and paste and are followers , they put little effort into building a diet to help them achieve their goals and they put the same amount of info into their training as well , many use gear as a fucking crutch to obtain their goals instead of using it as a supplement like it is intended for , to many think the compound will cut you up etc etc they don't realize the fucking diet, training and cardio cut you up and the tren is a supplement that helps you achieve a hard look. Some power lifters use it for increased strength but not many , but without their diet and training tren wont do it for them. What im saying is I think if the individual has the experience and has his bases covered by all means do you. But I will not cosign ANY cycle with ANY drug protocol if the diet, training and cardio isn't there and tailored for their goals , cause if you do what makes our site different from any other board? I joined this site knowing it wasn't a bodybuilding board , at times I have to tell myself that. That there are many different people with many different goals, and I hope they achieve their goals , but I think there is too much emphasizing compounds and stacks and what gear people should use yadda yadda but they have a half assed diet and half assed training to achieve their goal and their self shots prove it. My opinion is if the person wants to run tren and they have decent cycles under their belt , know what they're getting into , have a goal that warrants the use of tren , have the diet and training there to achieve their goal with tren by all means go for , but if they don't and want to use it anyways even tho they have a shit diet , a shit training regimen , and half assed goals , and fight back when people tell them that , then they are a fuck wit period. I have seen certain things preached here and then over time more slack is given , and more and more. Just my opinion these are grown men and grown women , but more often then not we see that just because someones age is above 20 30 and even 40 , they still don't have values and still act like children here.
RustyhookerDamn. Well said!
If someone is using a performance enhancer for ...well performance enhancing, then who am I to tell them if they have the right to use it or not? Hell, Tren is used by plenty of powerlifters, strongman competitors and fighters. It has abilities far beyond physique enhancement. Same can be said for many other drugs.
I think my stance would just be to veer to the side of caution with some things. Look to the safest route possible to accomplish the goals. But with all that said, performance enhancing / physique enhancing is not always about the safest route. My mindset is changing as I get older and I'm coming to the end of personal timeline that I had given myself to where I would just go at it to accomplish my goals, albeit as well monitored as possible.
I think the only "Earning the Right" that needs to be done is self education and self awareness. Know what you're putting in your body and know all the potential side-effects of what you're putting in. Be aware and accepting of those things, because good, bad or indifferent; it's self inflicted and you need to live by those decisions.
Very well said Wny.
Like you I've given myself a timescale to work with, after which other things in life will have to take a precedent over bodybuilding. As I get older I become more aware of how selfish this way of life can be.
all i got to say about tren is this, it will put you on an emotional roller coaster but, goddamn it works like no other.. i think for the regular gym rat part of the fun is trying out new compounds llke npp, masteron, sustanon, primo, var and figuring out what works best with the least side effects.if you are true to bodybuilding you are going to be doing it for a long time. most of your gym buddies will have given up way before they hit 30 and you will still be going strong, learning everyday.. all im saying is there is no rush to jump into something you will eventually work your way to.. that's why i think its not smart jumping into tren, D** ,S*** synthol on beginners cycles.
Good post brother
MY stance has been (and always will be) being cautious with the promotion of the cavalier attitude. With the ease and accessibility of obtaining steroids more and more members treat AAS like GNC. With each evolution of eroids that which was a line that shouldn't be crossed is erased and a new line is created. These are serious compounds we are dealing with and many of us have not only already felt the wrath but are well informed and accepting of what is possibly to come. There are AXIS crashing as we speak, hearts enlarging and endocrine systems in jeopardy by a massive demographic here that may think they understand but are lingering in the "won't happen to me" category. I can name 10 average members off the top of my head who have fucked around with slin since they've been here and think its "ok" because they "read up on it"
I'm 100% with you as far as working my way through particular compounds to notch the belt but nowadays we have guys jumping on stacks from the gate. We all know that everybody is gonna do what they are gonna do but I feel we fail as a community if we condone this attitude or even worse ignore it
You and I have always sang from the same hymn sheet with this topic as long as I can remember. Everything is so much more accessible now, there are so many kids on gear in my gym now it's almost unbelievable. Just this morning I watched a group of lads who I know are using tren, (I guess 18-20 years old), who can't bench press 100kg whilst on gear. When I first enquires about steroids around 24/25 years old, the gym dealer asked me if I could bench 3 plates per side. I said not quite, 2 1/2 each side. So he told me to come back and talk to him when I could.....
slin is the fastest way to destroy your body..
I dont even fuck with the stuff but you sir just got award for most idiotic comment of the year. Is it the fastest way to kill yourself ? Yes if you're a total retarted which is seems most juice heads these days are but used correctly it does not damage to your body. The truth of the matter is you can get 10 times better results with 500mg of test, and akttle deca with some gh and slin then you would on 1500mg of test 1000mg of eq 500mg deca and orals on and off all cycle. I'm sure you no nothing negative feedback loops and shutdown but there is none with the pancreas. Heavy cycles of androgens is Tje fastest way to destroy your body. Im not gonna go any deeper them this because there's to many idiots who read this but slin is probably the easiest on the body IF used responsibly. But just because you know how to use it responsibly doesn't mean you should use it. It's reserved for a very select few.
Honestly Iron? You haven't been using insulin? Keeping in line with the threads intention, I'm not making any judgement here, not my business or my place. I don't really care what anyone does but I do think you should at least be honest when taking the moral high ground.
I don't agree with it being safe. I have a phd from one of the best universities in the world and I don't mess with it for good reason. Maybe it's an age / risk thing, but I think you're downplaying it.
It's not something I want to put in the open for eveyone to read. Idk how that was interpreterd as taking the moral high ground I was just stating that his statement has no basis and is untrue.
I'm gonna send you a pm. This conversation is best kept out of the open.
No I think it's ok to discuss in the open, if a mod thinks otherwise I'll gladly accept the decision. You said you don't use it and you do, don't bullshit people, that's all I'm saying. You know me well enough by now. You don't advise others to do it, so that's not an issue. Remember what the theme of this thread is, not chewing people's ears off because they go against the norm etc. The guy you responded to above holds an opinion, you disagree. I lecture undergraduates and I happen to disagree with you. Nobody has to belittle anyone, they are different opinions.
I don't do opinions I do facts. It's my nature when you've spent the last 7 years in school finishing up 3 degrees. He was not stating his opinion the tone was that's his fact. When someone says it's the fastest way to destroy ones body present me some medial studies, citations , references etc. not a bullshit claim. Kinda like how I very briefly when to jnto the fact the pancreas has no feedback system and does not shutdown due to exogenous use regarding my stance in it not being damaging. And it's not like I didn't say the shit can and will kill you if you use it wrong. I presented stance on it's effects on the body when used correctly.
Opinions are fine, and should be reserved for statements like I think deca is superior to eq for bulking, or no carb diets are the way to go when cutting etc. but if I was to say nandrolone will destroy the heart im gonna follow that up with some reasons why and link you to one of the many medical studies I have backing that claim.
I've talked to you about this before, science changes rapidly. A lot of what you consider "facts" you'll view differently when you leave academia, I know I did. That's what keep it interesting, well it is for me at least. Otherwise there is no pioneering, no pushing boundaries etc. That's what I get paid for.
You didn't need to respond to him in that way. It was a figure of speech, you know that. You're referring to it too literally.
You're right. Accredited studies that are accepted as fact get discredited months or years later all the time. But ya, my tone in my response was unnecessary. My apologies
RustyhookerWhen you die can you Will me your leftover gear?
Slin is taboos because it can and will fuck you up. Not taboo because some mod with ego just picked and posted it to be a prick.
Hella youngsters post they wanna by like Zyzz. He was a member here when I began on this site. He died. His post is still stickied. Need anyone say more??
No. It can fuck you up, not will fuck you up. A test cycle can fuck you up if you don't use it responsibly. Can insulin do it 10000 times faster ? Hell ya, but like I've been saying when not given the respect it deserves.
Slin is taboo for good reason. To many people here can even dial in a basic test cycle. The last thing we need is to be openly talking about insulin like it's any only drug. But I won't allow eroids to be spammed with misfinformation like that.
And will make a deal, whoever dies first gives the other one the left over gear. Deal?? You better have some pharm grade for me lol.
Rustyhooker10,000 times faster....correct.
Some newb jumps on gram of test he's got zits, boner, aggro and long term a great new pair of titts. The non stop cycle is the one causing internal damage. But I'd take zits over coma and brain damage.
I'm not gonna continue this respectful arguement anymore. I felt the same way as you before I used it. So there's no covimcing you it's not as dangerous as it's made out be because it would have been the same way with me before I used it. Let's leave it alone, to many noobs on here. It's not a drug to be taken lightly and shoudnt be used by most people.
Your hypocrisy is mind blowing!
There are a number of young guys who don't compete on here running insulin. I assume the risks seem less real when you're younger than me.
It's definitely a touchy area. There can't truly be definitive borders within a group that has such differing goals.
I think we advocate safety as well as we can. I do believe someone should have a solid understanding of a compound before using it. Even in that statement though, there are plenty people using that have coaches telling them what to run, when and how much, that are highly successful. There are quite a few that couldn't begin to explain a compound, or isolate which one is doing what for them.
The only way I can look at it is that I'm no one to judge anyone. I can speak from some of my experiences, and I'll typically speak up if I think I have something of benefit to offer.
The best advice there probably is, is to use the magnifying glass, research and make informed decisions.
RustyhookerIt seems there is and always will be the very new guys wanting to hit the harsh stacks. It's really expected! folks read a lil or hear gym dudes talk tgen welcome to a site where that big magic stack is easy to get. Then op is hyped to run that 12 gear in 16 week switch. Sometimes you can get thru to them. Other times you cant. One thing for certain is they will return broken or smarter.
I'll be the minority here, I don't think tren e is anything to get excited about. I can achieve better results with deca without becoming a total prick into the bargain. Like I've said before, for me if it wasn't for stage I wouldn't touch the stuff.
RustyhookerIt makes me introverted. Instead of happy and cracking jokes, I'd rather be alone in my own world. I've had better cycle choices as well
Does exactly the same to me. I barely communicate with anyone and I become very narcissistic. Not really aggressive, but "difficult".
I have not used tren e and don't know that I will, but tren a, even at modest dosage I do enjoy. I do become more emotional but not really in a negative way. If anything I feel more human.
Tren E at 200/wk is more than ok for me bro
I definitely believe that. I haven't ran ace higher than 350. Right now I am running it at 210 with 200test cyp. Sure I could run it higher and I could also run it with mast and test P, but I want to see what it can do with them.
RustyhookerSmaller dose was fine. Up it by just 25 and introvert. My dreams are cool though. Luckily no nightmares. Tren sure seems to be one that is really different from user to user.
I think it's a great compound when life is good. I learned a good while back it's not one to take if things aren't as they should be though. Sleepless nights arent a great thing, but on top of a heavy mind, it's something to be avoided.
I'm sure it can make even a happy person develop some paranoias. If things aren't in balance, it's just not worth it to me.
RustyhookerI'm hyper active. Sleep bout midnight. Up bout 3 am and wander the house til 4. Sleep til 6 and go....tren I'll sleep like a rock. No waking up.
But definitely! Stressed out day or life struggles and things multiply.
Id be willing to say it all varies on a per individual basis, which I have seen on here. A lot of the newbies who are only on their second cycle and ready to jump into tren aren't really discouraged because they haven't earned their right as you say, but because perhaps they don't understand the full health effects of tren. I've noticed more members care about other members health and safety, and if they are sensible and show they posses such knowledge then usually I've noticed them being given proper advice. This board is after all safety first from what I see... I don't always agree with it, but it is what it is and I respect it.
My worries lie in this notion of maybe a member feels they will be flamed for trying something that they haven't earned the right to, so to speak, and proceed with a cycle in silence out of fear. That's what I find worrisome, that there are members here who may be running cycles wrong because they would rather stay quiet than take some constructive criticism...
That's a very good response. The second paragraph in particular is also one of my concerns. I don't have all the answers here but we need a balance between safety and "you're not worthy".
I think the hardest part about that balance is defining what makes one worthy (probably the whole point of your OP). I've yet to see what another member defines that as.
Is it the amount of cycles one has run?
Is it the end goal?
Is it an encyclopedia knowledge of AAS?
What gives one the right to define others?
And once defined, how much of a role should safety play? We are all involved with a lifestyle that is inherently unhealthy, and we all accept that. But if one is looking to run a more advanced stack to achieve goals, should his safety come first, or should his goals come first, with as much safety as that stack permits?
I'm putting my neck out there right now and admitting I have run a tren cycle before for 12 weeks, as I took a challenge in a class higher than I was comfortable in. I had 9 weeks with some change to make weight, and then some to actually provide some kind of challenge... I don't think the drug is all it is hyped up to be, both positively and negatively. I did love the strength gains, and my blood pressure did creep up. Did I start throwing people and kittens into fires? No. Did it help me with my goals? Absolutely. I was disappointed with all it promised though. My goals came first at that point, I achieved them, and I made sure to keep my health in line throughout the cycle. I didn't do it as rigorously as some on this forum would advocate, but that was a personal choice I made. I'm sure I got things wrong, and I sure would have loved to have had the balls back then to register here and post up, but I didn't. I don't regret it, and I can only learn moving forward.
We're all supposed to be adults here, but that is not the case far too often here. That is the struggle for me.
I fully agree that folks can do what they want, but I also think we have the responsibility to gather information about the people we're trying to help and then act accordingly. We should always be willing to give our opinions (pro or con), but in a respectful way. The only time that should end is when the person becomes rude or combative. That's a good time to walk away.
Maybe because of my age, I'm just prone to caution and my opinions will always be skewed in that direction. I also think it's important to direct people who are looking for more advanced cycles to the proper group as well.