+ 9 "Front-loading" vs. "Kicker"
I’ve seen a lot of confusion lately throughout the forums on the topic of “front-loading” and using a “kicker”. I’d like to take a minute to explain the 2 and how they are different. Then I will explain how each one is beneficial to ones cycle.
”Front-Loading” is a method used to build up the level of long-estered compounds in ones bloodstream without waiting the usual 4-6 weeks that is typical for long esters to stabilize in the blood. When front-loading, you will Double up your wanted dosage during the first week (or 2 weeks depending on ester (EQ)) . Let’s take Test Cypionate for example (7-9 day half-life). For this example we’ll generalize Cyp to a 7 day half-life (1 Week). Say you wanted to run 600mg (2cc using 300mg/ml) Test Cyp a week, you would do something like this:
Following a ONE INJECTION PER WEEK Protocol (Not Typical at these dosages, Just easier to explain/understand)
Week 1: 1200mg (First Injection); Blood levels at end of week: 600mg
Week 2: 600mg (Left from half-life of week 1) + 600mg (New Injection); Blood levels at end of week: 600mg
Week 3: 600mg (Left from combined half lives of Week 1 and 2) + 600mg (New Injection); Blood levels at end of week: 600mg
Week 4: 600mg (Left from combined Half lives of Week 1, 2, and 3) + 600mg (New Injection); Blood levels at end of week: 600mg
By doubling your dose the first week, you are stabilizing your blood levels at your wanted dosage after 1 week instead of waiting the usual 4-6 weeks. This would be most effective for someone who wants to run long esters but does not want to wait for the compound to build up in their system.
Using a “Kicker” is kick starting your cycle by incorporating the use of a short ester compound to bring blood levels up to wanted levels while waiting for the long ester to take hold. For this example, we’ll use Test P as a Kicker for Test E. While waiting for the Enanthate ester to fully stabilize at wanted levels, you would incorporate the use of Test P during the first 4 weeks of a cycle. Something like this:
Week 1: Test P 150mg EOD, Test E 600mg EW (2x300mg)
Week 2: Test P 150mg EOD, Test E 600mg EW (2x300mg)
Week 3: Test P 150mg EOD, Test E 600mg EW (2x300mg)
Week 4: Test P 150mg EOD, Test E 600mg EW (2x300mg)
Week 5: DROP Test P, Continue with Test E 600mg EW
Using this method, the Test P will bring your blood levels up to wanted level “instantly” compared to waiting the usual 4-6 weeks for the long esters to kick in.
As I stated, I have seen a bit of confusion on the 2 methods lately. Although, in essence, they are both doing the same thing to your blood levels, they are 2 very different methods in themselves. Hopefully this was informative to some of ya’ll. This was written strictly off of my knowledge. Any concern or criticism is greatly appreciated. We’re all learning here. Thanks!
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RustyhookerHere's a half life easy calculator.
http://www.eroids.com/forum/general/general-talk/half-life-calculator....
Prop is 2 days
Phenylprop is 4 days.
Something thay lives that short doesn't have a weekly value
Can you pin Test P and Test E together and on the same day?
yes
cbrant10That was a great read and some helpful information. I have a question though. Wouldn't shocking your system with 1200mg of test the first week make for really bad side effects? I am not sure but that is just a thought that ran through my head reading this.
nope, well you may notice an extreme increase of libido
keep in mind half of the drug is bound to the ester so It's not like you have 1200mg test in your bloodstream all at once
Check this link out and see if it clears up your question bud.
Maximizing Cycles
cbrant10Thank you so much for that vital piece of information. Are you some sort of scientist because you know an awful lot about steroids lol. Also, let me ask you this, if I am taking test and deca should I front load both or just Test?
I am not a scientist but I am an engineer so math is pretty strong for me. I do not know as much about steroids as a lot of vets on here. But thank you bud.
Now about you front loading test and deca. My advice and request is that you not use deca yet. Can you tell me a little bit about your cycle history so I can give you the best advice I can. I see you have your stats up so I commend you on that, but I need some basics like what have you done in the past, how long have you been working out, what kind of diet are you on and what you would like to accomplish on your next or first cycle?
I strongly encourage you to keep an open mind and listen to myself and other vets on the board as we all have your health at heart and with your age you really need very little to accomplish much. The reason I caution you against deca is because you seem pretty new and not done properly deca can give you a host of negative side effects such as deca dick (Limp dick with no function), extreme edema (water gain) and gynecomastia from prolactin and it can come on several months after you have finished cycle. Most importantly it is very hard on your HTMA system and can suppress your natural testosterone for a very long time. 19 nor's are no joke bud.
With that said I look forward to your response with your history and goals.
Terephthalic Pt...What is HTMA? I've heard of HPTA, but never seen HTMA before. A simple google search provided me with nothing. Care to clarify?
Stupid typo! HPTA is what it should have said. I am on my phone bud
Terephthalic Pt...Yeah I figured, I just wanted to make sure.
great info dirk. thanx! frontloading 1200mg looks like a big ass syringe lol...
Here is a question. Can u do both at the same time?? Test P and EQ front loading???
I just started a test e frontload, p kicker about two weeks back to see if effects would start sooner. I am pleased to report that I am feeling it kicking in already. Too early for gains, of course, but all the little sides that usually take 3 weeks are beginning now. Definite feeling of well-being. Frontloaded 500mg x 2 test e first week, plus 100mg test p eod. Frontload is done, but will continue the prop for another week.
RustyhookerYes. Its common because you're frontloading long ester for a long cycle. If you're running only short Esters then no. if you frontload eq you can shorten the overall cycle. Another option is eq cyp to avoid frontlosfing and superlong cycle. Many many options.
The primary use of short Esters is to get boost prior to the longs coming into play.
RustyhookerDirk...this answeres your question. Right from a phd.
http://www.eroids.com/forum/general/general-talk/how-half-life-math-works
Your above idea is on right track. +1
good shit dirk. I'm on test-e &eq Ican front load the EQ for two weeks ?I'm doing 500 a week so first pin 750 then 250- week 2 750 then 250, is this the protocol you are endorsing
waltrwouldn't you need 150mg eod of test p if your running 600mg of cyp?
i would think that would make the levels closer to what the eventual result of the cyp would be
RustyhookerSince prop only lives bout 48 hours, you can't have a weekly value.
If i run 600 test e, yest i kick with 150eod. It offers a good fast bump at that level. 500 beginning cycle 100 is fine. 150eod is a flat 300 but measured by weight, test prop has more bang for the buck. Less Esters give more parent hormone.
Terephthalic Pt...Stop telling people that. You don't understand what you're talking about.
Prop indeed does contain most test per ml like rustyhooker is saying, due to it's light ester.
P: C3H6O2
E: C7H14O2
C: C8H14O2
And you Terephthalic Pterodactyl, will need to find a more constructive way of getting your ideas across, or find the door out.
Terephthalic Pt...Yes I was referring to the prop 48 hour weekly value thing. I know that due to the heavier molar mass of enanthate and cypionate esters you'll have less testosterone in the same weight of a lighter ester such as prop.
If you read our previous engagements you'd see that I've already said this multiple times.
What I was referring to was that prop has no weekly value. I've explained multiple times how testosterone esters cleave off and how a 48 hour half life does not mean that in 96 hours it will be completely gone.
This has also been shown by other members such as Havoc. http://www.eroids.com/forum/general/general-talk/maximizing-cycles
I tried explaining this in my own thread and I got flamed, even by those who didn't even disagree with me.
you didn't get flamed for your info you got flamed because of you attitude.
@Rustyhooker
Stop telling people that. You don't understand what you're talking about.
Tread doesn't seem to understand how esters work
If tread holds more education than me he sure did get a shitty education.
As I said in a previous thread. I'm not going to argue with you. You clearly lack the intelligence to understand how this drug works.
@cry_havoc
Why don't you go back to middle school and learn what rate of change is? Why don't you click your own link and view your own stupidity as you argue with me about how my graph isn't linear when I said more than three god damn times that I was talking about the rate of change. You know the derivative. That magical thing that puts me apart from you with your inability to understand what it means to have a changing rate as a function of time.
Call me a troll all you like. You just don't like that I called you out. That I actually have the ability and am not just faking it like a little bitch. You're just a poser.
If not prove me wrong you stupid little bitch.
Oh I'm sorry I think you actually believe that you have any power over me whatsoever. See I'll fuck off when I want to fuck off. And there's absolutely nothing you can do about it
And that's just on this one thread. you have a few more that has the same pompous ass, holier than thou, stuck up brat comments.
Terephthalic Pt...You post the afters. Yes I get heated after being provoked. I'm young and I have high testosterone. What do you expect.
I don't start these things. It's after I get called out and insulted that I start these things.
If you'll notice Havoc called me a liar first. Hooker continually argued with me without posting relevant data and continuously called me a troll.
I posted my opinion on things and then things heat up. I don't just show up insulting people out of nowhere. Things escalate.
all i'm saying is there is a better way to get your point across than insulting people's education and cursing.
no one will take you seriously if you say something and we say that's not how it is in real life situation and you say fuck you you need to go back to school and try to learn something. that kind of talk will only shorten your stay at eroids. we are all here to learn not be insulted.
Terephthalic Pt...Maybe so, but we'll see if I even care to stay here very long on my own terms.
There will be NO terms now you are on my hit list son.... its just a matter of time.
Terephthalic Pt...Because you determine whether I stay on this site or not. You ban my account and I can just make another one. You ban my IP address and I'll just run through a proxy.
I know how to use Tails and Tor. I'm pretty sure if I wanted to I could stay as long as I wanted.
But this site hasn't really been too useful for me so far. Lots of broscience not to much real science. And there doesn't seem like much push to learn how stuff really works.
Sounds good to me man..... best start creating new accounts right now cos its lights out for you and your attitude.... i can assure you , you will get more pissed off making accounts than we will in constantly banning your ass....... find somewhere that suits you better you are not welcome here no longer ... and you make it clear we are just a bunch of broscience dummies so its best you fuck off.
You know Viking there were several vets who tried to get this kid to open his eyes and ears so he could learn something on here; but he had his own way of seeing things. I cannot believe the amount of mercy he was shown here on eroids by Tread and BFG and he was even warned yet again. I will say that even though I was pissed as hell at the kid for being so disrespectful to everyone here, Tread showed me a better way to deal with him and that was to make him at least an equal or befriend him to a degree with a little compassion instead of breaking his balls (I guess that's what we will call wisdom). I thought it had worked a little because the kid did simmer down.. Guess I was wrong. I knew he wouldn't last with that kind of attitude. But at least I got something out of it. Thanks Tread for showing a better way.
I think we should all hug and give him another shot!!! Not!
RustyhookerThe PhD posted up top that's run several cycles and tread hold more weight and education sir
http://www.eroids.com/forum/general/general-talk/test-prop-and-counting-...
Terephthalic Pt...Tread doesn't seem to understand how esters work. Testosterone esters are cleaved off and become an active testosterone molecule.
600mg of testosterone enanthate in your system does absolutely nothing for your body. It's only testosterone that affects you. The half life of the testosterone esters is the amount of time it takes for half of that ester to cleave off and become active testosterone.
If tread holds more education than me he sure did get a shitty education. The guy calls the life of test P 72 hours. Ridiculous. Test P follows exponential decay just like any other testosterone ester. The complete life of the drug is incalculable. It never reaches zero. There's an asymptote at 0 which makes it impossible to hit. You can only go into near zero values to make it virtually undetectable.
As I said in a previous thread. I'm not going to argue with you. You clearly lack the intelligence to understand how this drug works.
Are you saying that Tread, the highest ranked and one of the most senior respected members on this site doesn't understand how esters work? You have a lot of balls talking shit about people you don't know and you don't know shit about their education. 3 days is not that big of a stretch from 2 days for a half life of prop. And for someone who claims to be an engineer you sure did a half ass job on the graph you posted above. You claim you did not derive your function you just put in the numbers from the elimination rate each day but your numbers are all bullshit and you do not prove your math nor do you validate your numbers. You also claim in another post that you used a 10.5 day half life for enth which you validated by stating the value of Ke was .066014. This is from the function Ln(2)/10.5. You then on the same post in a rebuttal to one of my comments state that the graph above was done on a 7 day half life. If you did it on a 10.5 day half life then at 10.5 days it should be 300 not 126 and if you used a 7 day half life then at day 7 it should read 300! Not 212! So before you tell a member that he shouldn't speak his opinion because he doesn't know what he is talking about and before you go talking shit behind a very well respected senior member's back, you should take the time to read as much about that member as you can and understand what they are saying before bashing them and their education. You should also verify your graphs and numbers before posting them because if they are wrong you could get someone hurt. Lastly post your stats! You talk a good game and you can do basic derivatives but you could be 22 college student talking shit and have absolutely no cycle experience. People like to know that the advice they are taking is qualified not just parroted.
Your post: http://www.eroids.com/forum/general/general-talk/what-in-all-holy-hell-i...
Terephthalic Pt...No this is not from the function ln(2)/10.5. This is from a half-life decay differential equation which you might have come in contact with if you had any chemistry knowledge whatsoever.
I'm not saying that you couldn't do it with your log function. There are many different ways to skin a cat. Especially when it comes to math. But you probably don't know that do you. Because you're a fucking moron.
Telling me I claim to be an engineer and insulting me. Fuck you. I could run circles around you when it comes to chemistry, physics, and mathematics. I bet you've never learned a lick of any mathematics higher than basic calculus and you seem to have no understanding of how to fucking read.
You insult me and you're a joke. I could run circles around you without even trying. Ever heard of a Bessel function? A D'Alembert equation? A Fourier series? Understand Laplacian S space? Eiganvectors? Euler-Cauchy equations? Frobenius methods of series solutions?
Any engineer worth his salt knows most or all of these things because they're basic ODE, linear algebra and PDE work. That's what engineers fucking do. But I doubt you've solved a differential equation in your life. You who seem to be caught on logarithmic algebraic functions because you're unable to comprehend and use higher level mathematics. It's too much for your small mind to comprehend.
You defend a guy who claims that testosterone propionate will completely leave your system after three days. This is absolute garbage. Anyone who knows anything about time functions will tell you that. If you inject any amount of testosterone propionate there will always be testosterone propionate in your body. It will always be shrinking smaller and smaller, but it will never leave your body until you are dead.
The guy seems to be under the impression that Testosterone esters do squat to the body. This is the biggest misconception I have seen here. Testosterone enanthate or cypionate or propionate will do absolutely nothing for your body. You can have ten thousand milligrams of the stuff running through you and it won't give you any kind of anabolic effect at all. Testosterone is the active ingredient. It only works after being cleaved off of the ester.
How hard is this to fucking understand. Test P decays into testosterone. That testosterone is used and is eliminated by the body. Test P doesn't do shit. Testosterone does. Test P acts as a sort of prodrug.
Call my shit parroted. You try and find where I heard that from.
Yeah I was lazy and made that graph quickly. it showed a linear interpolation (not that you understand what that even means) of how a fictional 7 day half life testosterone cypionate would decay with a standard mean of error. Yeah it's not perfect, but it gets the point across. It was not meant to be a means of showing how much testosterone you have in your body at any point. That's what differential equations are for (not that you understand how differential equations work).
Why don't you go back to middle school and learn what rate of change is? Why don't you click your own link and view your own stupidity as you argue with me about how my graph isn't linear when I said more than three god damn times that I was talking about the rate of change. You know the derivative. That magical thing that puts me apart from you with your inability to understand what it means to have a changing rate as a function of time.
Ever heard of acceleration. That's rate of change of velocity you moron. Ever heard of velocity? That's the rate of change of position you twit. If your velocity is linear the rate at which your position is changing is exponential.
Talking about values of Ke. Learn to fucking read. There is no Ke in my function. I never mention a Ke. I mention a K. It's not that hard to see. Yet your eyes seem to fuck everything up and your weak ass mind seems to skew things into bullshit.
"I'm only being presumptuous about your math skills because you didn't seem to be able to grasp the simple concept of rate of change being linear. I too am an engineer and something like that is second nature to me."
http://www.eroids.com/forum/general/general-talk/what-in-all-holy-hell-i...
This is you making this statement isn't it? You claim to be 23 and an engineer! I think your a troll and a liar!
Your showing your true age kid. Your not even 23 you are 16! Now go down stairs your mommy is calling you for dinner!
Fucking troll!
Terephthalic Pt...You're*
You claim to be an engineer yet lack the mental capacity to know the difference between possessive your and the contraction you're.
I've been an engineer since I was 22. It's called a university. Actual engineers go there to study engineering. You know that thing that people with actual intelligence can do.
Call me a troll all you like. You just don't like that I called you out. That I actually have the ability and am not just faking it like a little bitch. You're just a poser.
If not prove me wrong you stupid little bitch.
I can show you an example of reactor kinetics that I do in aspen plus. You won't have any idea what it is because you're just a little liar bitch who doesn't know the difference between a Bessel function of the second kind and a Lagrange polynomial.
Enough kid.... I am through fucking with you! You have a lot of growing to do and guys like don't last very long on this site. Just keep talking shit to members and bashing vets and see where it gets you.
Now fuck off!
Terephthalic Pt...Oh I'm sorry I think you actually believe that you have any power over me whatsoever. See I'll fuck off when I want to fuck off. And there's absolutely nothing you can do about it.
I know you're upset because you've been caught in your lies, but it's okay. You knew it all along anyway and I've known it since you were unable to comprehend slope and interpolation.
Maybe if you study really hard you can hope to have the knowledge I had ten years ago when I was in middle school. Until then maybe you should shut your trap and watch what you say. Because I actually do know what I'm talking about. And I can prove it in any way you wish to challenge me.
Not necessarily. Now this is a subject I'm currently learning. You'd have to let one of these advanced guys get on here and explain it thoroughly. But it's my understanding that on a mg per mg basis, Test P carries more actual test in it than Test C due to the different esters. If this is true, you wouldn't need 600mg prop to stabilize your bloods like 600mg Cyp. Like I said, I'm not quite sure on this. I'll research it and get back to you.
Thanks for the thought provoking question.
Terephthalic Pt...With front loading you'd be exposing your body to crazy levels of testosterone for a short period of time and then dropping them down rapidly. I don't think this is a very smart idea and will probably cause an excess of side effects.
A spike from normal to 8X your regular test levels then a drop to half that sounds like a mess waiting to happen.
I understand what you're saying, but Im not quite sure you grasp the concept. When you cycle, what's the base to (almost) every cycle? Test... And what do you do with test when you cycle? You ramp up your own test levels to 2, 3, 4, 8 times your normal levels (depending on how you want to run your compound). Now with front loading, you're doing the same thing with your test levels, just quicker.
To further explain, I'd have to go into half-life's and the actual breakdown of what's being half-lifed. Basically, you aren't elevating your test levels to 8 times your normal level, you're pinning enough compound so that when it half lifes, you're already at your wanted level. 1200mg Test C, half life of a week, leaves you with 600mg that your body processes at the end of the week 1 and then you continue normal dosage from there and half life's stack up and so on and so on...
Thanks for the response brother.
edit: Also, you've gotta understand that I only used Test C as an example because of its half-life. You'll most commonly see front-loading being referred to when running EQ. You would front load for 2 weeks on EQ.
Terephthalic Pt...Uh, yes you are elevating your test levels to 8 times your normal level. First of all you're making the assumption that the test C is all pinned at once. Second for that week you still have a massive testosterone spike (or Equipoise or whatever you're frontloading). Then your testosterone levels drop rapidly over a small period of time.
Also half life does not mean constant levels then a drop. Testosterone decays with a second order decay. It's hard to explain this with words to someone who doesn't really understand what I'm talking about with half lives so I'll just show you in terms of a graph. This will make it much easier to see the point I'm trying to get across.
http://i1346.photobucket.com/albums/p690/TerephthalicPterodactyl/Halflif...
The first red graph shows how testosterone decays over time. Notice how it's not linear. This is why things are represented as half lives and not X amount removed per day. It's also why steroids are detectable for so long. Because it takes an exceedingly long time to actually reach near 0 and it's extremely difficult for your body to remove ALL the drug from your body.
The second graph shows the proposed frontload of Test C assuming a half life of 7 days. A normal testosterone serum level is said to come from around 125mg for the average person. So in the first day you spike your testosterone levels five times their regular amount with just a single injection. Then after your second injection you'll reach an all time high of 1000mg of testosterone in your body. This is eight times the amount of normal testosterone which then decays extremely fast causing a rapid flux of hormones.
I know these things aren't apparent to most nonchemistry majors, but this is my thing. I don't mean to be such a nag, but these are the kinds of reasons why there's so much misinformation. Because it makes sense to you guys, but it's not really how it works.
Youre right. I digress... I wasn't trying to get into a chemistry knowledge match. I was just laying out a very basic format of how front loading works and how using a kicker works. I'll get with a mod to get my misinformational post taken down. If you could, type something up and explain in more detail what I'm missing and how these half lives and breakdowns and everything work so I/we can understand this better
Thanks brother.
And as far as what I typed, yes, I was following a one injection protocol (Yes I know it's insane to inject 1200mg of test at once). I was in no way advocating that, I was simply using it as a very simple and basic easy to follow guideline. I'm all wrong though apparently.
Sorry if I came across hostile. No hard feelings intended.
Terephthalic Pt...Oh I didn't take it as hostility. And I hope you didn't take my post as hostile. It's just that a lot of information passed around is untrue, but makes a lot of sense to people.
I know you were just trying to help it just happens to be that things don't always work how they appear.
To write a through review of how half lives work entirely would be hard to do. It would take a lot of time and would require much more mathematical work. I don't particularly care for doing such things especially since I took the time to redefine the androgen/anabolic ratios in a way where they could be directly compared to one another and no one seemed to really care.
I have a lot I want to get done today and I'm busy with my job all week, but I'll try and type something up for the masses next weekend if I remember.
Great write up. Thanks for sharing bro! +1
kurt78good looking out bro
For sure. PM that first response to me. I'm down to chat.
Buildbigger86Perfectly said dirk, i have noticed people having confusion between the 2 of them.
Great informative post.I hope everyone reads this especially the Newb's.
You broke this down as a very easy and understand read with full detailed explained.
Great work! Thumbs up from me sir
Keep it up brother
Thanks man! I couldn't really find anything in the forums about it so I figured I would write something up that would be pretty basic and easy to read for anyone.
kurt78bro, I definitely got what you were saying. I know you just threw it together for an example and I get it.