+ 2 Need some help
Been around here for a while and up until about 6 months ago, never had a problem recovering from a cycle. I can say that I foolishly started taking AAS when I was about 20 to try and recover from a football injury faster. In the beginning I didn't pct and only stopped when money ran out.
Ive been on here for about 3 years now and learned a shit ton. Over the past couple of years I have watched my baseline score gradually drop in all my precycle bloods. I was at 725 at age 22, 684 at 24, 548 at 25 and now (5 months removed from last cycle), my bloods are at 300.
My last cycle was 250mg test ew, 30-40mg var ed, 600 bold cyp ew. I did my normal PCT protocol which is below:
week after last pin:
HCG 1000iu EOD for a total of 5,000iu
2.5 weeks after last pin:
Clomid- 200/150/100/50
Nolva- 40/40/20/20
I did not get post pct labs this time, due to a huge move and new job I was loaded with little free time.
After this PCT I noticed a dip in energy and strength but it was never uncommon for me to experience this. Then i moved south, got married and a couple weeks after I really started to notice I didn't feel right. I was sluggish, non motivated to do anything, sleep patterns disrupted, didnt want to eat much, sex drive dipped, muscle loss (slightly), BF increased and could not drop it, joints hurting, brain fog feeling, memory loss and anxiety about how I was feeling weird.
Well I thought this all may be tied to my thyroid. My last endo told me thyroid can throw off the entire endocron system. I had been off my t3 for a couple months as we just moved and insurance had not started. So I got back on, I take 150mcg ED so its not a great thyroid I have. Few weeks went by and I still felt like shit. I went to see a new endo who specializes in reproductive endocrinology.
Initially set up appointment for me but just found out I am going to be a dad! Which is awesome but I still feel like shit. He took blood and my results are as follows:
Testosterone- 300 scale 348-1197
E2- 41
TSH- 4.5 (with high antibodies count)
LH 2.2
FSH- 1.8
He said my 300 was a good score. When he said that I about flipped my shit. I told him thats good for a 70 year old. He said he had some things for me to try. I had an appointment to go back in 5 weeks.
In between I did Dr.Sullys power pct program which is almost what my standard is. Doc retested and I was still at 303.
Doc prescribed me 2 things to do:
- Take Letrozole at 1.25mg EW.
- Supplement (in addition to my T3): DHEA, B Complex, D3, Alpha Lipoic Acid and CoQ10
Now I worked at GNC for some time so I know exactly what those all do. I dont think any of those will do what a power PCT could not. So now I have been on everything above for 2 weeks and I still feel like a horses ass. The memory part seems to worsen by the day. My lack of ambition and drive is starting to affect my work performance. And my sex drive is gone. When I do get hard it fades after 5 minutes.
Can anyone give me guidance? This endo is supposed to be the best around. People come from other states to see him. I am getting a second opinion soon but what if he says the same thing?
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Havent been on here in a minute but wanted to update anyone following along. Since last post, doc added me on 5mcg of T3 along with 150mcg of T4. Switched to name brand T4 as he said it makes a difference. The problem is about 85% solved. Now I get tired around 3-4pm rather than 10am. My energy is better but sleep is still suffering.
Today I have 3 month follow up and will post bloods when I have them. i am going to try and get the doc to put me on desicated as I have read some amazing studies and testimonies on it.
thanks fam for the support
3-4 is good, 7-8 would be better.
@ 180 mg, I would hit a wall at 2-3,
@ 240 the wall was 5-6
@ my current level, the wall is 7-8 PM.
Good luck, your getting closer.
Doc wont adjust the levels further because i am sitting "perfect" according to him. My free t3 was 1.4 on scale .8-1.73. TSH was 2.4 on scale .178-4.53 (but that may have raised due to tren. Thanks for the good vibes... I think I am definitely getting better but none of these docs seem to care how I feel rather they go by the numbers which aren't painting an accurate picture
and you took 240mcg of T4?!?! holy shit
Not 240 mcg of T4, ..........240 mg of a Armour (desicated pork thyroid ), now at a higher dose.
Desicated pork thyroid, contains both T4 and T3 plus other thyroid chemicals or compounds.
This is my problem with doctors. If you fit inside their little box you are ok and nothing could possibly be wrong. Such a pain in the ass!!
I got lucky when my doc said it's not the numbers but how you feel. I quoted his words back to him.
The funny thing is, the side effects of taking too much is chest pains and tightness, so you know when you're taking to much.
@beastmode, dude, your T and Free T are way up, but you still feel shitty? Please keep us posted! I've been checking in on this thread to follow your experiences. Thank you for sharing, too. I really appreciate it!
yeah the free t and total t are from the HCG. But I do feel a little better from switching to name brand synthroid over generic. That second opinion was correct as there has been slight improvement. Energy lasts a little longer but still experiencing the majority of the sides.
Next week the doc will add in some T3 as that is the only number that is still ranging low. I will try that with the synthroid for about 6 weeks then reevaluate from there.
I still want to explore the desicated thyroid with my doctor as I have read a ton of positive things from those who have used it for thyroid treatment
I've never been on synthroid,......... I got my dr to put me on desicated thyroid from the start,........... for the craziest reason, he could NOT figure out what was wrong, AND I had a discount coupon from GoodRX for desicated thyroid. Took 7 weeks of seeing him & 25+ blood tests, before he caved .
Hope the energy levels continue to build. It takes time.
Update 8/26:
This is blood work from last week. This was 10 days after I started HCG protocol. So I was on:
150mcg Synthroid
1.25mg Letro 2x/week
1000IU hcg e3d
TSH 2.0... previously 1.9...scale .178-4.53
T4 9.7... previously 8.5....scale 4.9-12.9
Free T4 2.05... previously untested... scale .8-1.73
Total T3 97.... previously 85... scale 72-180
Testosterone 996... previously 462.... scale 249-836
SHBG 16... previously 28.... scale 10-57
Free Test 294.2.... previously 102.88... scale 30-150
LH .5... previously 4.5... scale 1.7-8.6
FSH .6... previously 3.8... scale 1.5-12.4
Progesterone 1.96... previously .74... scale .2-1.4
Estro 15.06... previously 12.75... scale 7.02-49.06
Keep in mind, no AAS or anything so the high test is from the HCG/Letro program. Symptoms are still the same, not much improvement from last update. Fatigue is still by far the worst. Started trying to push harder in the gym and it just makes me feel even worse. So damn tired half way through my day, even more tired by the end of work making my gym session suffer and then i try to push from there and it doesnt get any easier from there.
Second opinion is going to put my on cytomel in 5 more weeks if symptoms dont improve from switching to name brand synthroid. I asked this doc about it or using dessicated thyroid and he said the t3 may cause more problems for me than help me.
Well now you know your problem is not a male hormone problem. Not with those numbers and no alleviation of symptoms.
Your free T4 level is over max range at 2.05 reference range .8-1.73 (due most probably to your supplementation. Yet even with this rise TSH has only risen slightly and serumT3 is in the lower half of normal(worthless test) No free T3 or Reverse T3 tested. If your thyroid levels are too elevated then you would have raised metabolism. Sweating,racing heart, headaches etc. I still think your hypo.
Blood levels are whats floating around but does not measure how much Thyroid is actually in a cell doing its work. So although your in range you could still be deficent at a cellular level. Before TSH blood tests Drs treated the symptoms not the blood test levels. Think about that. Others have already posted on this thread about their experiences in treating the symptoms and not the levels.
its good we can rule that out... do i need to pct now when i come off of hcg? My LH FSH are shut down.
The last time they tested FreeT3 it was with in range. Neither doc will test reverse t3 unless I am so sick I am in the hospital.
I still think I am hypo as well. I dont feel the sides from hyper, so supplementation is fine where it is but I am interested in the dessicated thyroid if not, then atleast give me t3 as a supplement to the t4.
How do I get the doctor to treat me and not my blood levels? They have me doing some 24 hour urine test now but I just dont know where to go... even the decond opinion doc has me doing these wait 6 weeks to 18 weeks and see how you feel.
I don't think you need to pct. LH and FSH are suppressed from negative feedback from the elevated Testosterone level. That T level will drop and when it does LH and FSH will kick back up. You body is doing what it's suppose to do. Your Free T4 is elevated over max but is not converting to T3 since that is in the lower half of normal range.
This is the problem 100 of thousands are going through with their Drs around the world.
www.stopthethyroidmadness.com
.
Update 8/19:
Went to a new doc today to get a second opinion. Showed him bloods (posted in lab work on here), he said sexual hormones look fine so he isnt going to mess with those but he was interested in my thyroid. Doc says my sleeplessness is associated with restless leg syndrome. i told him I dont have the 'jimmy legs' at night, I just toss and turn alot. I told him all symptoms and his solution was to change brands of T4...
He is switching me to name brand Levothyroxine... aka Synthroid. He said a great majority of his patients switch from generics to synthroid and report feeling better in energy in about 6 weeks. Its supposed to be more stable in release than generics. I heard the same thing from my old doc before I moved but he said as long as I find a stable dose of synthroid we can switch to generics. So I wil go back on 150mcg of synthroid now and see how it goes.
He said the next step is to add a low dose of Cytomel (T3) in addition to my Synthroid (T4). But he says that is his last resort as it can lead to hyper symptoms.
He wants to keep my TSH under 2. This is interesting because all previous doctors have told me under the high end of the range was ok.
When I asked about the antibodies he said that only validates that I have hashimotos and there is nothing he can do about that. So it looks like I will do synthroid for 6 weeks, see how I feel and if no changes then I add T3 to regiment and go from there.
The frustration is its 6 weeks each time they want to try something. I feel like crap and my daily life is affected by it. I know I need to be patient but I don't know how much more I can take.
I like his approach. Some endo's think you need to have TSH at 1.0-2.0 to maintain optimal levels. If the Synthroid does not make you feel better ask him has he ever prescribed desiccated thyroid such as Armour. It is a made from pig thyroid. Each 1 grain tablet (60 mg) has T4,T3,T2,T1 and calcitonin. Synthetic is only T4 or T3. Desiccated thyroid is how thyroid was treated for the last 100 yrs before synthetics. If you need a combination this is the better way to go. Some here use it.
For those following this thread. You will learn more about thyroid than some Drs.
If you suspect you have a thyroid problem and have symptoms but your Dr says there is nothing wrong go here below it's a great resource
To help you understand what's really going on.
http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/recommended-labwork/
http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/natural-thyroid-101/http://www.thyr...
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199902113400603#results
From Wiki " Desiccated thyroid has roughly a 4:1 ratio of thyroxine (T4) to triiodothyronine (T3). In humans, the ratio is 11:1. "
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15884564
What is the optimal treatment for hypothyroidism?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11247618
Sub-laboratory hypothyroidism and the empirical use of Armour thyroid.
http://www.altmedrev.com/publications/9/2/157.pdf
Various drugs and conditions causing hypothyroidism in patients on thyroxine
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1633546/table/tbl2/
For security reasons I will NOT give medication and dosage I'm currently prescribed.
If you need more info,....... Send me a FR.
fr sent
2 links above were bad here is the correct link.
http://www.thyroiduk.org.uk/tuk/testing/thyroid_blood_tests.html
http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/natural-thyroid-101/
Thanks mega, who knows where id be with out the articles and advise u have given. Pointing me in the right direction, its helped the docs. Ill keep this updated as we progress
Update 8/15....
Latest bloods after using letro program seem to have put me back in the somewhat normal range. I still feel like poo but it isnt as bad. No drive though and i am still tired after being awake for 4-5 hours. Still running his hcg program w follow up this week. Here are my lab results:
TSH 1.9 scale .5-4.5
T4 8.9 scale 4.9-12.9
T3 85 scale 72-180
Testosterone 462 scale 249-836
SHGB 28 scale 10-57
Free test 102 scale 30-150
LH 4.5 scale 1.7-8.6
FSH 3.8 scale 1.5-12.4
Progesterone .74 scale .2-1.4
Estro 12.5 scale 7.02-49.6
What time were bloods drawn? I would say it was more the hcg that has your levels up than the letro. He wanted to use letro to control the estrogen spikes from the hcg.It also looks like you've been taking some thyroid meds. What are you taking levothyoxine T4? What dose?
this was taken at 230pm. This was also before I began my Hcg protocol. I was prescribed that HCG the day these were drawn. Keep in mind his Letro plan came into use prior to hcg being considered. PM me is your interested ill shoot you his name, he is apparently famous for his use of letro in men.
as far as thyroid meds, I have only been taking the synthroid he prescribed me at 150mcg. I have been on that for 6 weeks as of testing date. I was on 125mcg prior and my TSH came in at 4.5.
Well you actual testosterone level is about 15-20% higher. If you had tested at 8-9 am like most labs recommend you T levels would have been higher. You can have a variance of up to 35% during the day highest in the am lowest in the evening.I didn't scroll down, only read the above post where you said still using hcg. Didn't see the test was from the 6th.
I still don't think what your feeling is from your testosterone levels. I still believe it's from your thyroid levels. Your TSH is now 1.9 down from 4.5 but your still not sleeping well and fatigued which is a low thyroid symptom. I would bring that up to the Doc. Dialing in thyroid takes time. Your testosterone levels are in the 500's in the AM. So if it was just Test levels you should be feeling good. Dropping E2 from 41 to 12.5 did increase T levels. But again I think you problem is related to your master hormone thyroid.
https://www.eroids.com/forum/general/general-talk/when-checking-natural-...
Mega thanks again for the input. So i have some questions to ask the doc below but tell me what u think i could/should ask...
1.will my test, lh, fsh, estro stay as is with out letro? I dont want to be on letro forever. Makes me feel like shit and no libido at all.
2.if my tsh is good, what still needs to be checked or address to help sleep, energy and weight loss?
Please add more questions i need to ask!
Your Dr has you taking T4. Understand this people with hashimoto's have problems converting T4 to T3. Now he tested T4 which is in mid range and T3 which is in the lower range of so called normal. But it is Free T3 that the body uses and I don' t see where this has been checked.
it doesnt show up on latest testing but the test from July has Free T3 at 2.9 with a scale of 2.4-4.3... hold on I will post my bloods up, just need to edit them
Go read this. Even though you are in the reference range you are still in the lower 1/4th of that range(26% to be exact). Understand that all reference ranges include people who are ill. We are looking for optimal. Most Dr's treat based on reference range instead of by symptoms. Go read this to get a better understanding. If you have been feeling like crap for 3 yrs why continue. The right level is one that alleviates your symptoms period without going hyper.
www.hormonerestoration.com/files/ThyroidPMD.pdf
thanks mega, another great read. I went to see 2nd opinion today, posted info above.
Well the 2nd Dr has a better understanding of what's going on. Keep seeing him he is going to get you straight. The reason for the 6 wks is that is how long it takes T4 to reach saturation levels(4-6 wks). It's a slow process.
So just to recap for you-
July 11th- went in with fatigue, lack of drive, decrease libido... basically felt like shit. He pulled bloods, found I was at 300 in testosterone, TSH was 4.5
July 18th- went back to review bloods. doctor put me on 150mcg of synthroid (up from my previous dose of 125). He also prescribed me 1.25 Letrozole 2x per week (knowing this would crash my estro that was at 25 in my test results)
August 6th- went in for follow up blood work. had been on letro program for about 3 weeks. 1.25mg every sunday and thursday. Doc said to lower it to 1.25mg 1x per week. Keep thyroid the same. I still felt like shit. He drew bloods again and prescrbed HCG 1000iu e3d
August 14th- Got bloods emailed to me. See above for levels. All levels seem to be in normal range (Test, LH, FSH, Estro, T3, T4, TSH). Feel slightly better but still exhausted after 1-3 hours of activity.
August 20th (FUTURE)- have appointment to get bloods drawn again since using HCG protocol.
In some people, their TSH levels don't work.To get me feeling normal, my total T3 needs to be at the very top of the normal range. My free T4 at or above 1.0 and my TSH ends up below 0.10. Everyone is different. But the exhausted after 1-3 hours sounds like thyroid.
Question, after the exhaustion hit, 1-2 hours later??? Does the brain fog roll in ??
ETA: your T3 could be a lot higher. Thyroid will play a much larger part in it than testosterone.
(Unless your affected by a thyroid disorder, you would know.)
New update 8/6:
At docs now waiting for bloodwork to be done. I told him letro made me feel like poop but we knew that would happen. Nothing has seemed to improve. He is placing me on HCG shots. 1000iu e3d and retest in 2 weeks.
He said he doesnt like to recommend trt untill all options are exhausted. The way he explained it was if i need .5ml now, i will need 1ml to do the same job in X amount of time down the road.
I will give the hcg a go. He believed the thyroid is ok. Doing tests again to see what 150mcg dose has done for me today. Every test below has been ran and according to last test results the only thing that came back abnormal was thyroid antibodies. They were high. He said it was at an adequate level though considering hashimotos is a autoimmune disease... Will post results of bloods as i get them
Beast didn't you run hcg before and still came in at 300's.
HCG can raise your estro pretty quickly, so keep an eye on it.
he still has me on letro at 1.25mg per week
@beast, thank you for these updates. I'm in a place where I'm debating getting on TRT, but I wonder if simply doing two cycles a year would be "better" for me. Once you're on TRT, that's it, you need that needle to simple "be normal." Granted, your "new normal" will far outweigh the "old normal," but you're still dependent on that needle until they put you in the ground. I'm damn near 40, so the idea of 35-40 years of weekly pinning doesn't appeal. Still, I really, REALLY appreciate this site, as well as all the candid sharing that goes on here. You are not alone, brother! Thank you for sharing your predicament, as well as your adventure moving forward with blood work, etc. You're helping a lot of your current and future brothers (and sisters with husbands, boyfriends, etc) with your sharing!
So after doing some reading, thanks to MegaT, I am going to have my doctor run the following tests:
TSH
Total T4
Free T4
Total T3
Free T3
T3 Uptake
Reverse T3
Serum Prolactin
Total Testosterone
Free Testosterone
Estrogen
SHBG
Ferritin
PSA
Pregnenolone
I dont think I have run a few of those tests ever and I know I have not run them all at the same time. Doing so should give me a better picture of my situation.
Somethings to hit on with the Doc:
I know there are some others following this thread with similar problems. Here is something for you to read and think about.
http://my.chriskresser.com/wp-content/uploads/membership-files/ebooks/Th...
@beastmode, thanks for keeping this thread updated too. I've read every reply, and am trying to learn all I can as well. You're not alone, no doubt.
no problem man. its a learning process and I know I am nto the only one, although I feel like it with the doctor not doing anything that helps haha.
I go back tomorrow, so i am going to haev him run extra tests but I will haev the results from his letro trial run on me.
New 7/26/15:
Went to doc, showed him my bloods i got privately and he was still not convinced. Havent been able to try his letro protocol due to pharmacy/insurance problem, but with my estro testing at 25 (middle of scale) i asked him if that would crash my estro. He said yes but it should allow my test to rise....
Has anyone ever heard that? I feel like shit and i know what crashing estro feels like.... He wants to retest in 2 weeks then go from there
I've seen lowering E2 raise Testostrone (just look at my bloods) but T levels were higher(400+) and E2 levels were in the 30's-40's then lowered to the low 20's. Can that work maybe but I think your Dr is looking at the wrong issue.
In rereading your post your issue may be your thyroid. Being hypothyroid from your hashimoto's. The fact you stopped with your meds and then with the move,new job, marriage all major stressors was the tiping point. Causing acute symptoms. Everything you wrote are symptoms of low thyroid.
7 thyroid issues your Dr likley missed
The interrelationships between thyroid dysfunction and hypogonadism in men and boys
Testicular dysfunction in men with primary hypothyroidism
Male hypogonadism: More than just a low testosterone
I dont notice much from the letro program.... Took 1.25 every sunday and didnt notice much in terms of what i felt so i went to sun wed split of 1.25 and still dont notice much. I think this doc is trying to rule everything out before jumping to trt. Which i am kinda happy about but feel like death....
Ithought it may be thyroid related but ive been back on for a month now at a higher dose than before and no improvement at all. The articles you posted are interesting as i have never heard any endo or primary talk about the different mechanisms of the thyroid dysfunction. Symptoms are dead on. I plan on making doc test more in depth... Reverse t3, uptake etc.
One thing i read in either the first or second article was interesting.... Said thyroid issue relating can be caused by increased testosterone.... Is it possible my cycles started this? My first cycle was about when this started. I dont wanna connect dots that arent there but just curious
Thanks mega. Interesting info. Im getting close to the point where im just gunna start doing 50mg prop eod and see how i feel if doc doesnt find help for me soon
It's possible and that is why I wanted to make your aware of that fact. I still think your problem is in some way related to your hashimoto's. Thyroid is very complicated and I wanted to show you how easy it is to miss some of these issues. Sometimes we have to help our Dr's dig a little deeper by asking the right questions. The other thing is did you notice 1,5,7 are related to cortisol which is something that elevates when when there is a stressor. Inflammation can raise cortisol.
Thanks,
I am going back in for more bloods this weekend, so I should know more soon. I will have him test all these little things.
Cortisol is something I understand however, the things you mentioned like wedding, move etc were recent. The issues I have been having have been for about a year and a half. The test levels being so low is the only recent change. I will have him test that though
But think about this in when we do a cycle the testosterone lowers cortisol but we also train hard when on cycle which breaks down tissue and causes inflammation. ( We've all felt that soreness after a hard workout)Once we get off cycle cortisol shoots up.(it's what makes us lose size after a cycle.)Add the other stressors which may have put you over the top and here we are. Just something to look closer at is all Im saying. Let us know how it goes. KMC made some valid points below.