+ 1 Is there a definitive answer on 19 Nors and prolactin? Same for Deca Dick?
We read constantly about Deca, Tren, and NPP raising prolactin and how it's best combated with caber, prami, or P5P/B6. And also that 19 Nors should never be used alone. But I ran across a post recently (used the study listed below) asserting 19 Nors alone don't raise prolactin, and can even reduce it, based on human trials in 1980.
Long-Term Nandrolone and Testosterone Administration in Hemodialysis Patients: A Comparison of the Hematopoietic, Anabolic, and Endocrine Effects
Mike K. Mirahmadi, Nick D. Vaziri
It seems like for every 'fact' I read about a given compound, I will invariably find other studies or anecdotal evidence contradicting it.
So ... is there currently anything approaching a consensus on the Deca/NPP and prolactin relationship? Is everyone still running caber or at least P5P with any cycle including a 19 Nor?
I've also read probably five theories on 'Deca Dick' and why it happens and how it can be prevented or cured. Is there also a universally accepted theory on DD and it's prevention? Or is it still being debated?
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Well I finished the cycle (250/150 Test/NPP e3d) and can report how it affected me. Got amazingly vascular like when I was on Test/Tren, put on solid weight and fat stayed very low. I also used .5 arimidex when nips got itchy and 50mg P5P ed.
I found the sudden pronounced vascularity odd because I'd done plenty of Deca only and Deca/Test cycles back in the day and never noticed this effect, even at low BF%.
But there was definitely a mild blunting of my sex drive. As I mentioned, I have always been a horn-dog ... runs in the family. And test cycles or test/tren cycles sent it thru the roof. With NPP my sex drive was reduced to something approaching more normal for most guys. When the NPP was finished I had two weeks on 500 mg Test C, then a week on 200 Test C, and am now moving back to TRT dose. By the second week off NPP my sex drive and near constant wood was back 100%.
Got bloods done and need to pick them up from Dr's office. But feel pretty good post cycle (cruising on TRT).
So it definitely has an affect on libido for me ... for whatever reason. But it was never too bad for me and I bounced right back.
Thanks for all the info.
PcushionThank you for the update!
These links may answer your question!
https://youtu.be/8AisKoiIRmg
https://www.taeian.com/deca-base-cycle-no-testosterone-no-sides/
Manateeswimmer5678In the most basic way, deca dick is due to the fact that nandrolones are metabolized to a derivative analagous to test being metabolized to DHT. As we all know, dht is responsible for many of the features we enjoy from test such as sex drive and erections. This metabolite of nandrolones displaces DHT and competes for the same receptor. As a result, we lose our sex drive and get deca dick. A good way to combat this is to run low dose Masteron which will also help with the estrogen and prolactin synergy. Also, controlling estrogen levels properly should aid in controlling prolactin levels without the need for dopamine agonist or. Cabergoline and bromo and prami. The increase from prolactin during nandrolone use also aids in deca dick as increase in prolactin within males causes a decrease sex drive.
In my experience Deca or NPP will mess with my sex drive/abilities significantly. I actually just tried it again and dropped it because of it starting a little bit. I haven’t ever checked bloods for prolactin or anything so don’t know what the reason is but it can definitely mess with some people.
Rustyhooker^^^^^agree! +2 for real life trial. All the variations come back to trial n err
This guy breaks it down!
https://www.reddit.com/r/PEDsR/comments/812n58/nandrolone_deca_dick_real...
each individual has different reactions and side effects.
all ill say is research further and deeper in another direction.
learn how the drug works after injected and how our body processes it and what it converts into and why and you get your answer.
key- deca isnt active. it has to convert like a precursor.
people can add this subtract that.
trial this test that.
no matter what the drug is what it is that is fact.
what were the drugs made for? how long when invented was its intended usage and at what dose?
Update ... for anyone researching NPP later ...
Always been a little over-sexed, even at my age, even when my T was first dx'd low at 55 yo. And when running gear my libido goes thru the roof. On Test/Tren I felt like superman in the sack. I noticed early in this cycle that my libido remained strong/normal, and I expected it would rocket into the stratosphere soon like it always does. I was watching all this closely because of what I've read about DD. There was no increase like there usually is, but it remained strong at wk2.
Now, going on three weeks in, I'd almost swear my libido is actually reducing a little bit, which is the opposite of what I usually experience. Everything still works fine, I get to test it regularly (very lucky man with an awesome and beautiful wife). But it is definitely reduced from normal the past couple days. I'm watching everything closely to see if maybe something else is causing it, and it is still early. But it is a bit concerning. I ran deca often back in the day, often by itself. And never had any issues with it.
My pre-cycle labs were good, and I'll get mid-cycles done in a couple weeks or so. It's just a bit disconcerting. I'm dropping back to 250/150 E3D instead of EOD. Might up the P5P to 200mg daily. I think the Arimidex is right on point, as I can feel quickly when E2 gets out of whack. If the trend with my libido continues I'll get mid-cycle labs early and see what's going on.
RustyhookerMid cycle labs are mandatory. Your mind game doesnt mean a thing without science
Based on feedback from a gym bud, I've actually been running 250/150 EOD with 50mg P5P x 2 daily, liver protectant daily, Arimidex .5 EOD; joint protectant 2x per day, multi 3x per day, 50mg Pregnenolone ED. So 750/450 per week. Not eating as clean as Summer but still not bad.
Now at almost 2 wks in and have gained 7 lbs, lifts back up, larger muscle groups popping out. Libido and performance still very strong. Also I have been very impressed with my vascularity cuz I don't remember Deca doing that back in 90s. Always expected the opposite from Deca. But more so than the Tren/Test/Win cycle during a cut this Summer, my veins are popping out everywhere. After squats and extensions this week I noticed veins running all over across both my quads. I mean POPPING out. And I'm still around 15% BF. Very weird. Never had quad veins like this before, even in my 30s.
So far .... I love Test/NPP.
Ran my second shot yesterday ... 250 Test C and 150 NPP. Taking Arimudex x2 per week and P5P 50mg x 2 per day. I cranked up the test about two weeks ago to ramp up. Seems like it's all kicking in already ... hungry as hell ... lifts seems easier ... put on 4 lbs in 1.5 weeks. Libido still kicking (always been a tad over-sexed anyway) and maybe even increasing.
Fingers crossed for a good clean bulk cycle for the Winter.
Check out this users forums - https://www.eroids.com/users/giardap
Plenty of good info on the subject.
Very hard to believe in deca dick !!! When I use Deca I have a rabid libido and mass gain!
Pcushion“Deca dick” aka ED caused solely by the presence of nandrolone is real but it’s not nearly as common as people think it is. Now days E2, Progesterone, prolactin, blood pressure whatever it’s all deca dick on nandrolone cycles.
Hey boss I have to leave work early today. I need the take my truck to the mechanic. My deca dick needs replacing.
I just mopped this floor and you spilled deca dick all over it!
AnonLol it's definitely a "catch all" phrase for sexual dysfunction on nandrolone cycles now!
It's a shame people don't just get blood work!
Every time I see mention of Deca dick there is a huge clue involved with the users symptoms usually. I.e anorgasmia, start/stop erection, high blood pressure, no libido...a shame that people just assume that because Deca/npp is involved it's some other reason than the obvious..or they just throw caber in because their buddy said so
For me I’m fine with deca but even with a small amount of tren I get painful nips and I don’t get limp dick I get where I just can’t finish! At first it seems great coz you think you’re a porn star but the sensitivity starts to go after a while and I just get bored with trying to make myself cum lol caber solves both these issues for me but I agree it probably won’t be the answer for everyone.
Yeh its funny mate as at first the Tren makes you a horny MF'er Lol & you wonder what all the fuss is about then after about a week you feel as if you no longer have a co** anymore Lmao.
See I’ve never got horny from tren though, Just find it almost impossible to cum on it without using caber lol
PcushionYou and I are cut from the same cloth! I could not have said that better myself. The fact you see through the caber band wagon that currently exist is wonderful. Man 10 years ago no one was even talking about caber. Does it have a purpose yes, but people throw that shit around for the exact reason you said. From a medical perspective prolactin can be much higher than people think without any issues at all.
jayiskdeca never gives me mister floppy..,no homo.., just can take forever to finish.
AnonEver get E2 tested while that's happening? Sounds like high estrogen, anorgasmia..
PcushionGood job brother!!!!!
NotNatural23Their is something because mine off it is low normal range and on a therapeutic dose of deca it was high normal. 150mgs. Nothing changed except I added Deca. But I also believe like almost everything else it depends on each person.
There is a definite relationship between 19 Nors and Prolactin. The sides you get will be determined by your genetics, the doses you take and for how long you're on it!
For sure
I feel as though the dose especially is a major factor. I know of people who run TRT and use 50mg-100mg of deca for the benefit of joints lubrication, and they tend to never have an issue with prolactin
You’re correct sir!
I don’t know if it does or not. What I know for a fact is that when I ran caber and exemastane with it I did not get deca dick. But I did get it without caber and exemastane.
Anon"A broken clock is right twice a day"
Without blood work, it's a shot in the dark. Was it too little AI? Or the need for caber? Maybe a simple drop in the testosterone would have solved the problem as well!
Without bloods, we're all broken clocks at best.
PcushionThe 1980 study was flawed. Progesterone at times can act as an inhibitor a prolactin production but the avenue for this isn’t by way of the PR receptor. 19 nors are not progesterone they just act upon the receptor so therefore they do not possess the same capability of inhibiting prolactin. I have a medical journal on this: I’ll try to find it when I get home and then post the link. High E2+ PR Receptor stimulation via 19-nor steroids= High Prolacitn. You cannot block the PR receptor so your solution is control E2. Many things can cause ED in a man. In a lab setting with controlled variables aka (E2, prolactin, blood pressure, stress etc) all kept in check deca can and will still cause ED. This is due to a low androgenic environment. Deca not androgenic high AR1 affinity; it’s 5a metabolite even less androgenic high AR2 affinity= AR receptor saturation of low androgenic hormones. Easiest fix is to use a dht derivative: They are already 5a reduced and don’t have to wait in line behind nandrolone at the 5a enzyme. I am currently running 150 test and 600 deca with no problems at all. I am achieving this by pulsing my test. You can try this too.
AnonExplain this...are you talking about super long term use maybe? Erectile dysfunction isn't a guarantee on a test and Deca cycle if E2/prolactin are controlled. It does have an effect in the opposite way Viagra and Cialis do at the base of the ol gentleman sausage, but it doesn't always prohibit an erection. Our cycles are very close to identical fyi, my Deca is a little higher, and test a small amount lower actually.
No ED so far, the opposite actually. I'm aggressively horned up all the time...i will have bloods next month to check status on test/e2/prolactin.
PcushionI was saying that even under perfect conditions (Normal E2, prolactin etc) deca can still cause ED. Everyone responds different so some guys will be affect more so than others. That said if your running deca and experiencing ED but your lab work shows everything is normal... then it’s real “deca dick” and it’s happened because deca has upset your androgenic/estrogenic balance. Some guys are so sensitive that even normal E2 levels can upset this balance. Some guys aren’t bothered at all. The term “deca dick” is used extremely broad now. There are many causes of ED but along time ago guys noticed that it’s was happening with no other culprit around except Nandrolone.
AnonAh ok gotcha. That is what Ive learned as well, but erectile dysfunction with the absence of other E2/prolactin issues, is extremely rare, but 100% possible by the mechanism nandrolone works.
My interpretation of all the research I've tried to understand at least. Usually there's no accompanying blood work unfortunately. Seems to be the trend..
PcushionYou are exactly right. Without other hormonal influences it’s rare. Deca dick isn’t really the big picture. In experience and lack of lab work are.
Thanks for the info. Could you explain "pulsing my test"?
PcushionYeah man I have found that if I treat test c or e like prop and administer it eod while running deca it can help a lot of guys out. I personally have never experienced deca dick but I noticed erections are stronger pulsing the test of 2x a week injections.
Thanks for the info. I'd planned to run it like this ...
250 Test C and 150 NPP e3d with .5 Adex x 2 per week (worked perfectly last cycle) and 50mg P5P 2 x day. Adjust P5P and Adex based on sides and mid cycle labs. 5000 cals per day. 12 weeks planned out.
Goal is to add another 15 lbs with as little fat as possible. Like to keep my BF in the teens/low teens. Then run a cut this summer.
NotNatural23Most definitely it will keep bloods stable and higher. I know mine peak within 48 hrs and start to drop so every 3 or 4th day with test cyp I can tell the difference if I dose this way.
Dug a bit deeper here and found this thread ...
19-nor Prolactin/Deca-Tren Dick versus Testosterone - Part 2: The Answers + More Questions
giardap
... which pretty much answers my first question. Lotsa good info there.
Estrogen controls the release/conversion of prolactin...so if there is no or little estrogen present, prolactin is limited. I think a prolactin inhibitor is definitely needed (except in the case of a well controlled precontest cycle where test is dropped and estrogen is killed down to near zero)
I wouldn’t trust any anecdotal evidence and honestly, any study since 1980 that hasn’t been replicated with the same results can be thrown out the window.
Deca dick can be prevented by keeping hormones in balance (estrogen, progesterone, and test). I think the most
Plausible cause is slightly elevated estrogen with high progesterone levels causing a rapid increase in prolactin
Back in the 90s when we were not so informed, we ran Deca-only cycles many times with no AIs or anything else. I always figured maybe being young and dumb kept us safe. LOL. But reading the latest info it seems the anecdotal evidence is flawed and - as you point out - Deca per se isn't really the culprit.
Seems like the more I learn the more confusing some stuff becomes.
Running a Test C/NPP cycle this Winter for bulking a bit. Trying to learn as much as I can. Lotsa good info nowadays.