RPE Assistance work - Good idea or weak as fuck
Ok... so RPE has been around for a bit, but you see more and more about it each day, especially in powerlifting circles.
I’m a big fan of percentage based programs, along with going off of feel. Also a fan of conjugate(ish) programs where you’re hitting a 1, 3, or 5 rep max on your main lift (that’s a variation of your competition lift that works in your weak points. Eg. Paused or rack pin squats, deficit deads, floor press, etc), then backing down to 80% of whatever that number was for volume.
The moral of the story is, I get that you can’t max out or train to failure on the big 3 each week. It’s a good way to get hurt and can hinder recovery. And that sometimes it’s important to leave a rep or two in the tank, but I still Typically do AMRAP on my last set and stop just shy failure.
This question is in reference to assistance work. (Secondary lifts, isolation movements, etc.)
I may leave a rep or 2 in the tank in my first couple sets of an assistance exercise, but I ALWAYS train to failure on the last set, plus add in drop sets, or rest pause, or forced reps, etc). It’s hard training and I’ve always been led to understand that it’s a good thing.
Now with RPE, you’re hardly ever training to failure... so if someone says do all of your assistance work at RPE8 or 9, all I’m hearing is “don’t push yourself.”
I get the concept, it allows you to live free of numbers and hit higher weights on good days, lower weights on bad days and still train with the same exertion...
But especially with assistance work, can you really get stronger/bigger as effectively if you’re always leaving a rep in the tank? Where’s the balls? Where’s grinding one out? Where’s the struggle?
I’ve been reading and thinking a lot about this, and while I get it being used here and there, I just feel like it’s counterintuitive, and almost sounds like a bitch way out.
Yet I’ve been reading that you can get better gains doing this, and that training to failure can be holding you back.
Anyone have experience with this? Am I just being an asshole here? I’m wondering if I should give it a shot for assistance work, but also kind of feel like I wouldn’t be pushing myself as hard, so fuck that.
Thoughts?
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Glad I could offer a little insight. Honestly since accessory work is usually more isolating and lighter for higher reps, Atleast for me, i dont think it would hit your cns that hard going to failure.
Going to failure repeatedly can tap out your recovery and make you require more frequent deloads. i think of you are up and down through cycles it keeps you safe when you are off and lets you grow faster and lift heavier when you are on. And honestly, conjugate is essentially rpe based anyhow. Your max effort is based on how hard you can push that day, not a percent. Louie doesn't even recomend going to failure constantly, he says to leave some in the tank for the next session. Even dynamic effort weight changes if based on bar speed, and I'd hardly say the guys at westside have no balls. That said, i almost always take my accessory work to failure knowing its less effective to do so. I enjoy doing, and if I don't enjoy training i simply won't do it. If grinding out gets you in the gym, by all means get in there and go nuts. But seriously though if using rpe makes your training less difficult you probably just arent used to the system.
Awesome reply man. Thanks for the insight ++
I totally agree on not or rarely going to failure on the main work. I very much subscribe to Brandon Lilly’s “never miss a rep” mind set. And I almost always have at least 1 more in the tank for my main work. Unless it’s my last set for the day, sometimes that would probably be a 10 on the RP scale. My last sets outside of explosive/dynamic days would probably be either a 9.5 or 10. I’m on board with not going to failure for the main work.
I was more referring to accessories. Like the bodybuilding style work we do after the real work. Whether you’re using cube, 531, conjugate, DUP, rotating percentages, linear, whatever, there’s always some assistance work that’s higher rep and that’s what I can’t really get myself to buy into as far as RPE goes. Was wondering if anyone’s done it and had success.
Sounds like we’re Kinda in a similar mind set there. I think I’m gonna try leaving 1 or two in the tank most sets next training cycle just to see what happens... that’s assuming I can convince myself to do it after the set starts. Like you said you gotta enjoy it and anything to make assistance work interesting is good in my book lol.
I always train to failure and give it 110% in any working set. The only time I don't is if I'm still too sore from another workout and can't get near 90%+ of maxes. I've never found assistance work to be of any real benefit either, to me a movement has to be trained with full range each time to perform at your strongest when performing it properly. As Scott Mendelson says - 'When people ask me whats the best assistance exercise for building a big bench - I tell them the bench press! He also trains in every session to the point of his CNS being shot each time as that's whats required to come back stronger. I completely agree with you in that people who say they never go to failure are just looking for an excuse to not have to train hard and put in the extra effort required, the blood sweat and tears.
This is the old school way and the best way IMO.
You need to have a screw loose to want to do this all the time but guys like Tom platz said it best, they got in the gym and lifted as much weight as they could as many times as they could. Go home and recover. Deload as needed.
Yea it just doesn’t compute lol. Although I don’t know about intentionally burning out my CNS. To each his own tho.
Some programs I’ve done in the past, and even the one I’m doing now (Brandon lilly’s Cube Kingpin) don’t go to failure every set of the main work, but by the end ur toast and you’ve done as much as you can possibly do on the last set (Aside from explosive days, but even those beat you up pretty good). I do believe in assistance (although only being a small portion of the work), but I just can’t understand not going balls out, or how that could possibly translate to better gains.
Train less aggressively, get more gains... WTF?!
I will say tho my barbell row has been stuck for a month. I wonder if it’s worth trying with that movement just to see what happens. It’s not like I have anything to lose. I just can’t wrap my head around it, and in all honesty I’ll probably tell myself I’m gonna stop a rep or two shy and then as soon as the set gets close to the end be like “fuck that!” and end up going all out anyways lol.
Yeah I'm with you on the CNS front man - when its shot its a downright awful feeling. You can't think straight and training feels like you are about to fall over after each set Lol Sleeping for days....
I use to be obsessed with Barbell row's, I hovered around the 4 - 6 rep mark and just worked on increasing 1kg each set in every workout. Problem is though is it can end up becoming more of a lower back workout if you obsess about the numbers too much rather than contracting the lats to get the massive size the exercise can produce. Use straps on them also if you don't already as that really helps up the numbers.
I’ve been staying in the 8-12 range just cuz I wanted the size from it, so I’ve been using BB rep schemes. But 4-6 might be a good idea to start pushing the numbers back up for a bit. That’s a great call!
And agreed. that’s the only movement I use straps on every time.
Your decision. Personally I like training to failure. But that's just me.
Same. I cant wrap my head around this “hold back” method lol. Do you know anyone that doesn’t train to failure and beyond that’s had success? I keep reading you can get more gains that way but it goes against everything I believe, you know?