+ 2 Stop ‘kickstarting’ and start gaining
I’ve never seen so much written about this kickstarting stuff I’m reading about and I wanted to address it. This is an internet bro science ‘theory’ that seems to be a recurring theme online. I’ve noticed the trend among beginners mostly and so I’d like to open your eyes as to why it isn’t optimal or even needed.
Why would one want to build up hormone levels so quickly? The only thing I can think of is an excuse for impatience. Not one ifbb pro or coach that I have ever worked with in ‘real life’ has done this. If anything it’d be the polar opposite of what one should be doing...it’s a shock to the body that in the short and long term will inhibit your gains.
The best analogy I can think of is shampoo. If someone has a shaved head, or fresh receptors/been off cycle awhile in our case, only a dab will do you. As your hair grows, you need more shampoo. As our muscles and strength grows, we need more juice to continue gaining. You wouldn’t start with a handful of shampoo on a shaved head to force it into growth would you?
More doesn’t always = better. Especially in the beginning. The 1st couple of weeks into a cycle is when everything is fresh, we need far less gear to make the same gains as one would flooding their system with drugs. If one has been off (or even cruising low dose) for months and gets back on, very, very minimal amounts are needed to achieve goals which brings me to my next point;
Everything in this game is about steady progression; be it gains, or weight loss. When in life does impatience ever serve us?
Experienced coaches and bodybuilders who I’ve worked with do one of the following;
- Start with x, y, z (maybe inj x, inj y, and oral z) at a certain dose, and run that same dose until the goals of the athlete changes.
Or
- Start low with x and y, let them build up in the system for a few weeks, THEN, use z as an additional tool or plateau buster WHEN GAINS/INTENSITY BEGIN TO SLOW. Then go up on x and y as needed.
No need to throw the kitchen sink at someone using a ton of shit in the beginning when the same gains can be made off of 1/4 the amount...save your kickstart for a boost when needed, not just because.
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I can see both sides & I have tried both ways, & to be honest I can’t say I’ve seen a great difference either way. Different compounds & maybe scenario would be different.
The theory behind front loading is due to the ester it will take awhile to attach to the receptors & an effect to be noticed. Whereas by front loading, you’re actually flooding the receptors & the compound is able to attach to more receptors & at a faster rate.
Nice post brother & thanks for bringing something different to the boards!! +1
Thanks for the kind words...much respect
Great opinions here, love this forum.
I’m going to go against the grain here with an extreme; the first couple of weeks it’s better to actually use LESS per week and ramp up. (Dr. Usually do one of the two when prescribing any/most medications)
Optimal to get the most out of the least;
Week 1.) .5 max dose
Week 2.) .75 max dose
Week 3.) full weekly dose
So, not only are you not blowing your load, gains will start from week 1, and continue throughout your cycle (provided training and diet are on point)
Alternatively
Week 1.) full dose
Week 2.) full dose
Week 3.) full dose
Without front loading you’re giving your body time to acclimate to the drugs. Gains can be made off less I promise.
If one were to hit the body with the kitchen sink on day 1, where do you progress from there?
Most all medications dr.’s rx are rx’d one of the two ways above for the simple reason that the human body responds best this way.
RustyhookerI dont kick with orals. Oils yes. I save my orals for tail end which typically is a short ester oil but not necessarily prop. Unless midcycle or pulse
Frontloading i do differently and typically a test only situation. Sust is one example i outlined elsewhere and relies on ed pins.
One question that pops up for me is the idea youre suggesting with not kickstarting.....yet look at a short ester cycle. Its fully a kickstart of sorts.
Example 100mg prop ed and 75 mast ed with 50mg anavar tge last 6 of 8 weeks. If thats not a hard saturation then we quit all short runs?
Nah def not quit all short runs...the opinion I’m sharing is mainly applicable to longer eaters....in the exercise of 100mg prop, 75mg mast, and 50mg anavar is great! Especially if one is keeping the dose the same or ramping slowly. I’m saying no need to go 200mg prop, 150mg mast, and 100mg ed days 1-3 to get levels up ‘quicker’
As in the case with long eaters where I see and hear of this often. If one wants to run 750mg of enanthate per week. No need to blast 1000-1500mg weeks one and two to elevate hormone levels quicker.
Since (IMO) this is a game of steady progression, one could easily grow the first couple/few weeks (off of less than the goal peak levels) while hormone levels ‘build’
Okay this comment put it in better perspective for me I usually always go with cyp 500 MG and the first 4 weeks I pin prop along side at 100 MG eod as a kicker that's my idea of a Kickstart. I see what you mean now. Lol
RustyhookerOutside the box. I can see that.
Comparing Shampoo to cycles?
Kick starting a cycle with orals is bro science?
We all appreciate your opinions
I myself , always enjoy a good laugh.
Enjoy the coaching and I hope its working out for you
It's a good post actually. It all revolves around our individual interpretation of Frontloading, Kickstart, etc
We all rely on the Forums for info....and unfortunately it's packed with lots of misinformation sometimes
So what GMan is saying about Blasting/Frontloading/Kickstarting a compound (higher dosing) for week(s) then tapering down (or whatever the protocol might be) and possibly/probably causing saturation/oversaturation of receptors/spiking estro, etc
I don't think most actually know you can really FrontLoad a Long Ester Test and elevelete Serum levels in a matter of days Vs weeks from one high dosed shot Vs week(s) of high dosed shots
Loading Dose and Half-life Pharmacokinetics
Frontloading, or what is medically known as a loading dose, is a common concept used in medicine today for IV drugs, IM, SQ, and even oral tabs/capsules. This technique is used in order to achieve peak blood level concentrations of the drug being administered much faster than without the loading dose. This has a primary medical advantage, which is that you don’t have to wait as long for the drug to be efficacious.
It has become popular today among many bodybuilders to start with frontloading steroid cycle when they use heavy esters. They do so because they want to negate prolonged visible effect to achieve desired level of energy and body constitution. Others use another way to achieve the same effect -by boosting (KICKSTART) steroid cycle with oral drugs or solutions with no esters that promote faster consumption in system.
Bill Roberts-
Frontloading really doesn't, or at least not as I use the word, mean running higher levels of steroids in the earlier part of the cycle.
It means employing a dosing protocol where levels almost immediately reach what will be the later steady-state levels of the drug.
When not frontloading -- simply using the drug at the same dosing as will be used throughout -- it takes several to many half-lives for levels to build up to where they will ultimately arrive.
Instead, one can inject on the first day an amount equal to that which is on average injected per half-life, plus what will be the ongoing dose. This will lead to fairly promptly having the same levels that will be the case throughout the cycle.
E.g., if a drug's half-life is two days and the ongoing plan is to inject daily, then to frontload the first day's injection is three days' worth.
If a drug's half-life is six days and the ongoing plan is to inject every other day, then to frontload the first day's injection is four times the ongoing amount. (As there would be three injections per half-life, and then add one.)
(Example)
On Day 1, I wouldn’t inject just 500 mg, however. Doing so wouldn’t bring blood levels where they need to be. With ongoing injections of 250 mg three times per week, it would be about a month before levels would be properly established. For better results, on Day 1 I’d inject about 750 mg as a frontload (five days’ worth, plus the usual daily amount, because the half life is about five days.) This would fairly promptly get levels where they need to be and where they’ll remain with ongoing 750 mg/week dosing.
https://thinksteroids.com/articles/perfect-8-week-testosterone-based-ste...
http://www.whatsteroids.com/steroids/frontloading-improve-steroid-cycle
Very interesting, nice post!
Personally not a fan of "kickstart" with orals but I do like a test prop taper beginning and end. It helps me transition on and off much smoother. Orals for me are used as a finisher but Anavar is about the only oral I run these days. I hate the way dbol and such make me feel. I have been wanting to try t-bol as a finisher I've read and heard alot of good things on eroids and from friends.
Thinking about the same thing myself. Want to run my next bulk cycle on a trt dosage of test.
The older I get the more I try to stay as side effect free as possible!
Interesting post,however the facts are not accurate.Many pros kick using drol or dbol.In fact dbol kick/test/deca cycle is one of the oldest in the game.Chad Nichols laid this out as one of the most common cycles pros use in Muscle Media around 1995.Now he may not train pros today,but he did at one time.I think Ronnie Coleman and his wife Kim qualify,both Olympias.I also think you're missin the point of the kick.It's not to overload the receptors,though some guys do like that idea,It's to kick until the long esters have a chance to reach proper levels.The male pros(as in earned a pro card)Don't use orals at all and the females(which to be fair only compete in bikini)Only use anavar or whinny.So not much kick,as you say.
Good theory. How have both worked for you personally when you actually tried both? Kick starting vs not.
Just bc Chad Nichols supposedly laid out xyz, doesn’t mean his athletes did the same (unless you witnessed it or heard it from their moths). The only thing I know about CN is he likes cyp and anadrol (and an off topic hormone used a certain way). Please show me a link that he wrote that uses the words ‘dbol kick.’
But then you said male pros do not use orals? How can you blanket a population of people knowing what all of them do or do not do?
Test Deca dbol is a great combo. Blowing your load from day 1 works, but you can get better results waiting.
Actually I said the Male pros I know,as in personally,don't use orals at all.I certainly wasn't making a blanket statement.You're also correct about the article,it was a hypothetical cycle and he was clear he wasn't alluding to anyone he was currently training.Once again this was an article from Bill Phillips rag in the nineties.I was just making a point about the process.I personally don't use dbol at all.I would "kick"with oxymethalone my self,but don't use this process.Im a TRT so no need for a "kick".
I’ve known two pros and they both used orals. That’s a big statement. If there’s any pros on here I would love to hear them chime in.
I've only known three males and one female.One of the males used orals some.Mainly halo.The other two never used them,unless you count clenbuteral or AI's,which I don't.The other two were training partners and their protocols were practically the same.They mainly used some combo of test,EQ,and tren along with GH and something we don't talk about on this forum.The female used orals.Anavar and whinny,even though the whinny was depot,it is still whinny and has to be considered an oral.Remember I wasn't making a blanket statement about pros.I was only talking about two of the four I know.In my opinion probably many pros use orals,but that is just a guess.
Kick... meh
Frontload to achieve steady state immediately = faster clinical response (where this is possible of course, because it is not achievable with every compound)
This can be done with long/heavy easters.....Test E, Test C
(Days, not weeks.....similar to the misconception that IGF1 elevation takes weeks)
Exactly!
It gets interesting though, when you look at compounds that dont give a corresponding speedy clinical response.... despite frontloading and hitting steadystate plasma levels. Tamoxifen is one of these compounds
What’s the rush?
Clinical response.... the eating of the pudding, rather than the massaging of the ego!
Bros do kickstart for more mental reasons more than anything. C and E esters take time to kick in and guys push them selves harder when they start feeling a "kickstart". I'm not stating whether the kickstart actually helps build any type of lean muscle or not. I'm just saying your typical gym rat that waits four weeks for his motivation to kick in is going to benefit a lot more from feeling that pump asap.
‘Motivation to kick in’? That’s part of the problem brother...
Motivation vs discipline. Motivation is doing what needs to get done when we want to do it. Discipline is doing what needs to get done when we do not want to do it.
Champions are disciplined, not motivated.
I understand what you're saying but your opinion is not relevant to this situation. You're not going to change the way millions of people think are you? No of course not to let them enjoy feeling better for the first month.
100% agreed! Probably won’t even change the way a handful of people think...not my intention at all. My only intention is to help people :-)
Nah you'll reach some people and some can't be reached by anyone.Keep plugging brother.I actually agree with you main point.This game is about consistency over a long period of time.Youve made some really good points!
Thanks brother! I know ultimately my thoughts are just my opinions and a little different, thanks for not blasting me and having a mutually respectable discussion with one another.
I'm not in the blasting business brother.I think a responsible crosflow of ideas makes for a much better forum.You seem to take the less is more approach and I do as well.The thing kids don't understand is that the drugs are a very small part to a pros regimen.They are built in the kitchen and gym through work and discipline.The drugs may make a difference between pros. It won't make a novice a pro per se!
+1 to you sir
"Not one ifbb pro or coach that I have ever worked with in ‘real life’ has done this."
Most (not all for sure) pro's don't do cycles! On gear 365d/yr.
But I agree with you, I never "kick" with an oral like dbol/drol....
I do it a bit different, a lot guys will now say its nonsense but I "kick" with proviron and decrease the dosage after 2 weeks
Let’s remove the ifbb pro’s, coaches, what they do/have their athletes do.
When, one time ever, has a trt or hrt Dr. ever said, “I’m RX’ing you 100mg of test cyp per week, but you are to take 200mg weeks 1 & 2 to quickly elevate your blood levels? Never.
I’ve never even heard of any meds, at all whatsoever, where you read on the label from the pharmacy, “take 1 dose of xyz in the AM, and one dose of xyz in the PM, but double that the 1st 2-3 weeks”
I’m not saying it hasn’t happened but most drugs RX’d by Dr’s and Pharmacists are RX’d at xyz dose and if it takes weeks to build up so be it, let the body acclimate slowly.
If we listened to most trt doctors we would be fucked. Majority of them know half what an experienced bodybuilder knows regarding these topics. Shit I've watched trt docs prescribe 1 shot every three weeks and say that will keep him stable lol
This sounds more like a GP prescribing Testosterone
Check out Dr Rand: (he has some good YT vids)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jgx19hvryTM
True in most cases,except adrenal cortical steroids,not something we as body builders should be using,however the medroid pack works exactly this way.It front end loads a larger dose and the taper down to a maintenance dose.I like this post and you make some very good points.Certainly worth discussing.Ive been helping a friend and he's been using a kick with drol.The cycles have been short and consisted of drol/test cyp for five weeks and test cyp only for five weeks then pct.I actually stole it from a "Viking "post.Now my friend is no pro,not even close,but has gained an average of 20 pounds per cycle.He was small and after two cycles he's a respectable 235 @ 15%bf.
Great job with helping your friend, brother. That’s what this is all about right? (Helping one another)
Completely agree with what you're saying. I know a few pro bodybuilders and powerlifters. They are not actually "coming off" they are just switching compounds/cycles.