Mini PCT
Check profile for stats. (I'm 28 y/o, 5'11, 240, 17% BF, I have experience w AAS for the past 4 years or so, been researching for about 10 years though, and I've been lifting since I was 14. So I ran a 16 week cycle from April - July. I was running:
600 mgs Test E/week for weeks 1-16
Proviron 50 mgs a day weeks 1-8
Masteron 350 mgs/week for weeks 9-16
HCG 500 IUs E3D weeks 9-16
Tren ace 250 mgs/week for weeks 12-15
Aromasin 10 mgs a day weeks 12-16
Then I stopped everything and 2 weeks after last test E pin I ran a 5 week PCT w
Clomid 150 100 100 50 50
Nolva 20 20 20
Aromasin 10 10 5
No HCG since using it on cycle.
I was advised to keep nolva lower and for shorter length of time BC it being suppressive. Well I got bloods done the week after this PCT and my LH and FSH were in the lower normal range, but my test was 196. I stayed off everything for 4 weeks and just started a mini PCT recommended by the same person who suggested the cycle. It's only 2 weeks.
2,500 IUs HCG day 1, 1000IUs HCG day 5 and 1,000 IUs day 10, 20 mgs nolva for 14 days, and Clomid at 150 for first 3 days, 100 next 4 days, and 50 last 7 days.
Any thoughts on this? I feel like 2 weeks won't help my body get back to normal and maybe need more HCG and just a longer protocol? Maybe an AI?
Got this from professionals on another board but I don't know I was wondering what you guys thought...
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rocketballzI think you took way too much hcg over the course of this latest cycle. The leydig cells in your balls which actually help synthesize testosterone naturally can become "de-sensitized" (I think there's medical literature out there) after an extended period of phony LH signals from the hcg. HCG basiclally tricks your leydig cells into making testosterone. When the real LH signal comes it can't communicate with a cell that's been de-sensitized to normal LH signals via the hcg induced-signal. It makes alot of sense. Also nolva doesn't suppress natty production, that I know of. I could be wrong, but why would it be part of a standard pct protocol which always includes 40/40/20/20 for nolva over pct. You also waited only two weeks to start pct when you probably should have started 3 weeks in. You're still elevated from the exogenous test. Another week and you wouldnt be. Anyway, you made some mistakes and I am guessing when all is said and done you will end up somewhere around 150-200 natty. We're all humans and we make mistakes, no judgement bro. Start making the right decisions. Take it from an old dude, its the right thing to do and it can only help you
Check out my new bloods.... On my profile.... Test 676 from 169! Didn't use anything different except HCG this time. For 10 days 5,000 IUs.
If you are either on or just finished the pct drugs your numbers are most likely artificial high from the pct drugs. Recovery can be a slow process. Pull bloods again 6 to 8 weeks or longer if your feeling more normal post pct drugs. This will be a better indicator of your HPTA axis coming back on line. Good luck to you.
Thanks JL. When m testosterone was 169 I was still on 50 mg clomid a day. From the 5 weeks since then, I first took 3 weeks to completely detox and didn't take anything. Then I did my mini PCT using the exact same PCT drugs that I used during my normal PCT. I got bloods yesterday on day 13 of the mini PCT. I have been on 20 nolva and 50 clomid (same exact PCT drugs) and 5,000 IUs of HCG. Only added HCG. I think the time off helped. PCT is bunk but the HCG was legit. I'll get bloods done again in 8 weeks. Today was my last dose. My LH and FSH were still low and that is concerning but shows clomid is underdosed or bunk....
Way to early for bloods to tell if you have recovered. The drugs are still influencing results and give no indication if you have recovered or not.
Do you know I was on the exact same drugs when I was a 169 test level? Same exact pills from same exact source. Same exact dose. Only thing I threw in was 5,000 IUs of HCG. So HCG increased my test by 400%? I am not disagreeing w you that it's too early for bloods, I'm just saying I was taking the same PCT drugs at the same dose when my test was at 169. I'm done with the mini PCT and I will do blood test again in 6 to 8 weeks and see where I'm at.... Thanks
Hopefully you have recovered but you won't truly know until all drugs have left your system.
You're right. Thanks again man
How long on the new mini PCT?
You're right...maybe cross reference aggressive PCT on here and check dosages...
2 weeks total.
HCG - 2,500 IUs on day 1
1,000 IUs on day 5
1,000 IUs on day 10
Nolva - 20 mgs a day for 14 days
Clomid - 150 mgs days 1-3
100 mgs days 4-7
50 mgs days 8-14
I feel like it's too short, and I started yesterday so it's only day 2 so I can change things right away. I am just following what was suggested. I can say it felt good to blast some HCG yesterday. I forgot I had taken HCG and I woke up and scratched my balls and they felt noticeably fuller and larger. That's another thing that messes me up, I have my normal sexual function for the most part, my libido isn't super high but it's there, and my testicles are really smaller than normal. I don't know maybe I have been on cycle for so long that I forget what my normal balls feel like. Lol. But the HCG did help me out already.
Have you ever had pre cycle blood work? Have you ever seen your natural test level? I'm thinking what Big Thing said may be the culprit. Prior cycles might have whacked your axis....
Bloods were taken to early. Need to wait at least a month after PCT before bloods otherwise your LH/FSH and test levels are still being influenced by the PCT meds. Based upon what you have provided so far, I have a feeling your PCT meds might be bunk. With bloodwork that soon after PCT your LH/FSH levels should be jacked up from the clomid but they aren't. Are your PCT meds Pharma?
I agree with Makwa. Most blood tests I have seen that were done shortly after pct (2 weeks is short time) showed elevated test numbers. Your's is very low. Either your pct was bunk or your body is messed up from previous cycles and you will need more agressive pct to hopefully recover a little better.
My theory, too, at this point....
My PCT drugs are legit. They are tabs, not capsules and are produced by a pharmaceutical company. I have also used these same pills before for other cycles but this is the first time I am having trouble. They worked well in the past. Also, I know how Clomid makes me feel (can't stand the sides) and I definitely got strong sides. I know the bloods were done early and LH levels should be much higher. Let me see if I can post my blood test results...
As evidenced per BW?
Check my photos on my profile for lab results
Are you taking any kind of vitamin regimen?
Have you ever seen your natural test level? If you're trying to recover, your headed in the right direction. It might take a couple more attempts, though. You have to reach a point where you stabilize. Follow up BW is key to knowing where you're levels are. If you're shutdown, the improvement will be minimal with an ebb and flow of different values as evidenced per future BW.
Your WBC is in range, but on low end as well as the platelets, for someone who has cycled. Looks like you need to donate a unit, too. Blood sugar 135 is interesting for fasting labs. ALT liver enzyme is nothing to be alarmed about and can be addressed with an OTC liver supp.
Estradiol less than 5.0....I would be easy on taking AI's and continue what you're doing with hCG, Nolva and Clomid.
I have never gotten my normal range tested before I started w juice. But, my normal test was in the 5-600 after 2 months after my very first test only cycle. But I have never had my test levels taken before starting gear in 2013 when I was 25. My first cycle was 10 weeks of test E 500 mgs/week for weeks 1-5, then 600 mgs a week for weeks 6-10. I have never been gyno prone, and I didn't experience much bloat so I didn't run an AI or anything w it. I did a 4 week PCT 2 weeks after my last pin. PCT was:
HCG: 500 IUs ED for 15 days
Clomid: 100 100 50 50
Nolva 40 40 20 20
Liver support - Liv 52, milk thistle, another liver support formula
Multi vitamin - mega man sport GNC brand
NAC - 600 mgs X 2 times a day
Vitamin D - 5,000 IUs a day
Non flushing Niacin
Alpha lipeic acid - 600 mgs a day
Plenty of aminos - from glutamine & BCAAs to citrulline & arginine, to taurine, L-carnitie, etc.
I always run those OTC meds during any PCT.
This time during my PCT and throughout the break between the two I am cycling 40 days on 50 MCGs a day of IGF-1 LR3 pre-workout on workout days spot injections in the muscle cycled with IGF-1 DES immediately post workout when I am not taking LR3 for 2 weeks and then 4 weeks off and repeat. I also just started MK-677 25 mgs before bed along w 500 MCGs HGH Frag 176-191 2 times a day (1 mg/day) mornings and before bed on an empty stomach w no carbs in particular. Only been two days w those two so we will see how they affect me. The MK-677 was given to me free BC I posted bloods of my >.1 serum GH levels after taking a top src MK for over a month and not getting any elevated GH serum levels. He gave me a free bottle of liquid MK and said the liquid is from a diff source and he's been getting a lot of compaints about the pills not being effective, but all positive feedback about the liquid.
BTW I did bring this to my PCP who has been my doctor my entire adult life and he didn't report in to insurance or make record of any of it, he just reviewed it off the record. He said nothing was really that bad except for the testosterone levels and the estrogen (which go hand in hand).
Anyways, as for the whole fasting/non fasting thing, they really fucked that part up (or maybe it was my fault). I had fasted all night and day - my apt was not until 1:00 pm and I hadn't eaten since the night before BUT since I had a Gatorade w me and was sipping on it, they said that's not fasting and marked it as non-fasting. So I had drank 2 - 28 oz gatorades before hand (95-98 grams of sugar which was very stupid of me but I have passed out from blood being drawn). That definitely could have messed things up.
Liver enzymes will be in check as I continue the liver support supplements and the Nolva, Clomid and Aromasin could have jacked up my liver enzymes. Plus the tren...
Anyways, I plan on following this 2 week PCT and get bloods done as soon as I am on day 14 to see where I stand. I don't expect things to be back to normal obviously but I feel like it will be a step in the right direction. I usually get my lab results the very next day or the following day at the very latest so I'll know what to do (increase the PCT reginine to an aggressive PCT or drop the PCT and wait a few weeks and test again.
As for my WBC, it is in the low range which I forgot to mention. Any reason why my RBC is normal but white are low? Thanks for all the feedback and please continue to give me additional feedback, tips, etc.
In summary, I'm not anywhere near a first timer, but I only recently started getting bloods done pre, during, and post cycle (post PCT) so I'm still learning. I'm trying to do the right thing, and this is the first and only time where my bloods came back low after my PCT and it's a scary feeling. So once again, all feedback is appreciated. I know from 2014 - 2016 I didn't QUITE follow the rule of "time ON (including PCT)= time OFF". For example, I would run a 12 week cycle, followed by a 4 week PCT and instead of waiting 4 - 5 months, I would usually get back on after around 3 month (maybe once or twice even sooner - maybe 10 weeks after completing PCT). I realize how stupid that was and all I am doing now is praying that I walk out of this normal again or close to it. I know it's gonna take some time, and I don't know if I'll run another AAS cycle but if I do, it won't be for a long time and I am getting bloods done the entire way through the process. Thanks again everyone and God bless.
I look at trends in values on both high and low ranges regarding bloodwork. RBC, Hgb and HCT should be addressed by donating a unit. WBC and Platelet values could be due to peptides you're using. Everybody reacts different to compiunds. God bless you too, bro...you're gonna get this worked out. Research Triptorelain. I'm not telling you to use it, but it has some advantages, especially for guys that have been on AAS a long time.
could you please post your recent lab results, including prolactin. Just edit out your name and all personal info. Also include what you blood panel was like during cycle. Which dopamine agonist did you use?
Check my photos on my profile
Bloods on cycle were phenomenal. Test was 1,400 something and LH and FSH were in the higher range. But that was before Tren. I got them done 6 weeks into my cycle. I am not gyno prone, never have had any gyno issues in my life (even with 19 Nors), so I didn't need to worry too much about prolactin. I got the women's hormone panel test that includes everything that the male hormone test covers, plus more stuff. Trying to edit out my info and post now....
You've got some funky bloodwork there. LH/FSH should be bottomed out if taking exogenous test.
It's labcorp. I would post them but I don't know how to attach a document. I have them saved without any names or info attached....
Can you take a pic of them and then upload as a pic.
They are in my photos under my profile.....
X2 on BW...