posted Thu, 01/14/2016 - 11:42
4487
apparently protein supplements are a waste of money
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So. I watched a program called " trust me i'm a doctor" and they tested about 50 people training in the gym (some had protein supplements - others had placebo) and after a month training...they all gained muscle.
Conclusion is - your body can only handle the amount of protein it needs, the rest will be pissed out. So forever eating protein to gain is aload of shit.....
Discuss......
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Protein is a food, not a magic pill.
I get somewhere around 100 maybe 150 grams of protein a day. after that i start having kidney pain and passing it in my urine. you can actually tell based on your urine if you are passing unused wasted protein. i would encourage you to look it up. the amount each person needs is different. find out what works for you
Here is a study talking about protein and body composition.
http://jama.jamanetwork.com/mobile/article.aspx?articleid=1103993
In this study, patients were studied as metabolic in patients (lived at the facility) over the course of 12 weeks. All the patients had a BMI of 19-30 (normal to obese) and were put on a maintenance diet for a few weeks. The last 8 weeks of the study the patients were over fed and excess of 1000 calories a day and put in controlled studies. One group was fed a low protein diet (5% of calories) a normal protein diet (15%) and a high protein diet (25%). Carbohydrates remained constant while fat was added or subtracted from the diet to maintain calorie intake.
The results were such that all groups increased body mass and fat. Doing body composition studies and energy expenditure and a calories maintencr break at weeks 7 and 8, the study revealed different changes in body composition. Unlike the current belief that amino acids ingested during times of excess glucose will be stored as fat, the opposite happened. While no patients were exercising or put on any training regime, those who ate the highest protein diets had positive changes to their lean body mass meaning they increased muscle despite not exercising. This group had the lowest percentage of body fat increase and the highest lean body mass increase. Protein in the presence of the excess calories will be used in the formation of muscle.
I am especially happy with this study as it proves many things. I truly hate when people say "hey the human body can only a sore 30g of protein at a time" Really? Is at a time over 15 minutes, 1 hour, 2 hours, 24 hours? No. The human body is one of the greatest specimens in adaption ever. If se could only absorb 30g of protein at a time, why not only 30g of fat? 30g of carbs? Why don't we piss of shit them out? According to this thinking, humans could never get fat because we could only a word so much before we piss or shit it out. The human body does not waste which is why we get fat in the first place. The human body is about survival and a great way to survive, once you have enough energy (calories) is building protection and padding (muscles make even better insulation than fat)
Scientists believed the human body could not withstand speeds of 30mph at one point. Science is a study, not a dogma. Scientists use to say artificial meals were healthier than whole foods. D'oh!
When the human body is under stress, the human body can do so much. We need high amounts of protein as protein is needed to keep the immune system running. Protein is your only source of nitrogen and when the body goes into a negative nitrogen balance, that's when you get sick, when you get head colds, fevers etc. why are athletes rarely sick? Exercise plays a part but so does diet. Exercise is incredibly stressful on the human body and when one is stressed out, their immune system is weaker so one would think that athletes would be sick all the time. However protein is absolutely necessary for the immune system to work, to repair damage done to cells.
What I'm getting at is, enjoy some fucking steak and be strong!
that is a VERY small sample and one study does not a rule make ... was all the training the same? was their life stress monitored and was that accounted for? what level were these people training ... all beginners some advanced ??? There are SO many mediating and moderating variables that you cant make a blanket statement like that with a conclusion based on 50 people ... which i d bet money wasnt even sort of random and apply it to the general population ... I see a shit ton of TV advertisements for shows that claim to be reality shows and they are not, this sounds like one of them.
StevebAlso a lot of protein powders are junk. There are good ones out there but the majority are really bad.
Yep I am aware of that .. ;-)
You have great insight above! Stress is a KILLER for muscle building. A guy or gal can lift until they pass out and then go eat "perfectly" but if the rest of their life is full of stress, they'll see little to no gains. Then, the guy or gal who workouts "normal" but laughs with loved ones and doesn't stress out in the rest of their life will see their physique go to exceptional levels. Stress is a friggin killer. You nailed it, @GRRL. +1 for telling stress to fuck off.
Google the book "How Much Protein" for a good summary of studies regarding how much protein has been scientifically proven to be useful in building skeletal muscle (aka- building a nice physique).
Heads up- the book only quotes studies on guys who are natural with no AAS, so the data will only be "food for thought" for those using AAS.
The truth is, some guys build INCREDIBLE physiques on 100grams (or even much less) of protein a day, others can eat 250 grams of protein (or more) per day and look average, even unimpressive.
We experiment on ourselves and see what works and what doesn't. If it works and the sides aren't detrimental, do it! If it doesn't, change it! Pretty simple.
The basics to building muscle are constant. Lift. Eat clean. Say hydrated. Mitigate stress. Get rest. Repeat.
We advocate "DON'T BE RECKLESS" here on eroids, and that includes diet.
Why?
Because going slowly and steadily WORKS.
Know your goal(s), follow your plan, and change the plan ONLY AFTER IT IS PROVEN NOT TO BE EFFECTIVE. Unless you're noticing health issues that cause you to change (or quit), fucking stick to the fucking plan you impatient fucks!
Don't be a dumb shit and three weeks into a blast say, "it's not working, I'm gonna add compound A and B, then change my eating times to blah blah blah."
Stick to your plan. Lift your ass off. Get your sleep. Repeat. Consistency is key.
As long as YOU do the work (aka- lift smart, lift hard, repeat) then and only then will you know if a certain diet & exercise protocol is working or not. Need more protein? Get after it. You don't? There you go, now you know.
Sorry for the cussing, kids, but sometimes daddy's gotta call an impatient asshole out every now and again.
Be patient, be consistent, stay positive, and build the best version of you than you can build.
Keep posts like this coming!!! Good shit man
As long as one's caloric intake is above maintenance, with enough protein through food or shakes muscle can be gained. In my opinion protein supplements would be a waste of money IF one is only consuming them without paying attention to the rest of their diet. Protein shakes can't replace the goodness of real food. Drinking 8 protein shakes a day while skimping out on carbs and fats will lead to little to no gains. I take a few shakes a day since I have a smaller appetite and I can't see myself eating a whole chicken everyday haha
the_1_man_riotHave you had good results?
I was 18 stone and had a six pack at 5ft 7 when I had 4 pints of milk and 400g tin of tuna every morning and afternoon on top of eating my normal diet. Wasn't fun and my sweat used to smell of metal all the time. Not protein shakes but worked for me. Never liked shakes that much. Always preferred milk as didn't mess as badly with my digestion.
Lol. Food over shakes anyday yes, but it depends what used for, they arent a staple or diet as the kids think these days but they do work as an extra or " on the run" gap filler like on way home from gym. If those people who were "studied" all ate their normal foods daily and for example they were supposed to be getting in yay amount of protein per day for their weight/ size but fell short of that by yay amount daily from food and added in some protein shakes to make it up of course it makes a difference. As stated below positive nitrogen balance and fresh aminos running through blood constantly and steadily is always neccasary. Trust me im theflash........ fuk the dr lol.
I'm sure they didn't follow those people around all day/night. It takes a lot more then protein to get results. I'm sure everyone knows that though.
Having a surplus of calories AND protein will make you bigger. Not protein on it's own in place of other calories. If you have 500 calories over your basal metabolic rate and those calories are protein (the easiest way is to add more protein to meals, or add separate protein sources such as shakes) you will grow more than if the calories were, for example, fat.
On a separate note, how can you measure exactly how hard someone is training or their genetic potential without biopsies of their muscle's structure? Tricky to quantify.
lmao. these studies are jokes,....
''DONT BE SO GULLIBLE MCFLY''
They get the average joe who barely trains and has no ambition to build muscle or be an athlete. The demands the body requires when athletic ability is taken to the limit day in day out for extended periods of times are enormous and even more so when on PED.
Protein is not easy to get in if you lack the apatite, are constantly busy and don't cook. Protein shakes are the best thing that has ever happen, they are efficient, they are convenient and most importantly they are very low in calories without carbs and fats which is hard to accomplish with food unless you eat dry chicken breast and egg whites all day.
Protein shakes are delicious and keep me from starving during the work day. I think i'll keep drinking them...
I myself only have one protein powder shake (and that's post workout only).....all my other 6 to 7 meals are whole food meals.....or my roll out of bed is shake is liquid egg whites and I drink em w zero cal water enhancer for flavor.
But have been real curious as to what changes and gains my body might make if I upped my supp protocol (casein, creatine, more bcaas, etc...)........I jus remember some of the dudes I did some time with and how monsterous they were WITHOUT any powders or a single supp...only coffee and food. And were some of the biggest pound for pound dudes I ever seen. There was even a straight up bodybuilding show between 4 of the major correctional facilities in the southern part of the state I was down at.
Some were even shredded 6 pack having monsters. Just a few months before i was released some muscle mag came and did a one page article on one inmate from my facility as to his daily routines and eating habits as an "inmate" bodybuilder
I will leave you to believe whatever you want.
Isn't this why you recommended sipping shakes over the course of an hour or more rather than chug chug chug?
AnonWell if you chug a shake your most likely to be bloated as fuck for the next hr and hate your life if it's packed with calories. Sipping it allows your body to absorb it easier and cuts down on the bloat you'd get versus pounding it down. Vik probably knows a more indeph response than what I've given.
What you said is the exact theory behind why i advise "sipping " instead of "gulping"....... leads to better assimilation and no bloat or feeling like you are going to die from dropping a shake that could be anywhere from 1500 - 2000 Kcal.
So it's just coincidence that guys I train with who have the time to fit in 8 to 12 meals a day are 2 stone + bigger than me??? Even tho we train the same time???
the_1_man_riothttp://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/b04j9gny
Way to many variables and questions unasked.
Some of them were already asked below.
And so much more questions.
So many studies lack of smt. To get the most out of studies, it would need particular circumstances and rigid rules/following. Things that often simply can't be done, due to different factors.
So even real good studies can lack of certain things.
Do you have some kind of link or similar?
the_1_man_riotThey where of mixed age, size and height.
They followed the same training.
They where all new to training.
They each took a supplement after training.
Just 1 protein supplement after workout. Dont know what make but they all had the same one apart from the placebo
It wad done by a group of scientists in the u.k i believe, they also did some others aswell
Try bbc iplayer for trust me i'm a doctor
Do you believe everything you see on TV or in a program. So the average person can ingest 30 grams of protein every 3 hours. A person on test or whatever else it increases your protein synthesis and well you can ingest more than 30 grams of protein. Broke down a little Barney style for you. This is why bodybuilder and so on eat every 3 hours or so a protein source. To keep feeding there body and producing more muscle. Forever eating protein does work for me and I always make sure that my body has the maximum amount of protein it can handle. Wether it's a shake or food. I take about 3 shakes a day with 50g of protein. But of course I spread them out.
the_1_man_riotI am the same bro. But i cant knock science over bro-science. Roids aside, there study seems to be genuine.
What I just said was science! If you take in birdseed plus some booty juice then you will take in lots of protein! That's simple science bro I learned that in kindergarten!
Ehm, sorry, but what you said was nothing near "science", if it was, then only bro science.
Many ‘experts’ or gym know-it-alls out there who will tell you to only consume “X” amount of protein at a meal because only “X” amount of protein can be absorbed by the body at a meal. Assuming that you have a healthy digestive system, the absorption of the amino acids from a meal containing protein is very efficient and almost never a limiting factor. Absorption only refers to nutrient uptake & absorption via the digestive track. If our digestive systems didn’t absorb most of what we eat than anytime you had a big meal you would have diarrhea like clockwork from the undigested material in the gut! It also makes very little sense from an evolutionary standpoint to be very wasteful with nutrients when primitive man may have only been able to eat one large meal in a day at times and with that in mind, imagine it could only absorb 30gr....well, we wouldn't stand here then.
Is it most optimal to consume all your protein in one meal? Probably not and this is where a well distributed protein intake makes most sense.
I said 30 grams every 3 hours...If you eat a large meal or 3 large meal you'll look soft. Like I said that's why body builders eat 5 to 8 small meals a day If not more to stay nice and lean. What I said was correct its science and bro science! I wonder why doctors recommend small meals!!! Don't come up in here trying to challenge me or what I say is wrong! You think I think I'm a know at all? I've been in this for a while and went through trial and error! I know what works!
Haha, okay, I see you're absolutely capable of arguing and willing to discuss a topic....
I see that this leads nowhere with you. Stick with what you're doing. You can definitely do it that way, never said it's wrong.
"It's science because it's true"
That attitude of yours.....do I look like a 1karma member to you?! This is a place to help and share info. If you don't like what I present to you, feel free to say it in a different way. We don't need to agree, I even love it when people have different opinions and share it with each other, but your behaviour is simply wrong!
I respect that! Maybe I was a little bit of an asshole! Apologies!
bigmurphI believe in using protein as just some extra always try to get real protein because if you are overly using protein powder your just shiting out money you could have spent on real food
the_1_man_riotAgreed
This has to be the biggest load of shit I've read as of late and believe me I've read a lot...
Are many supplements shit? An in fact fraudulent? Of course and it has been found out a lot lately. But, saying all and any protein supplementation is in fact bullshit. I mean many cancer patients are put on protein and vitamin supplementation I know because I watched my mother do it before cancer claimed her life.
Many doctors all over the world put children and seniors on protein supplementation. I'm not talking your pop up new companies in gnc or your local supplement shops near you. It is proven that protein supplementation is a thing and it works.
Your body can only handle what it requires , this is in fact true. But if you don't get your required daily intake what do you think the fucking shake is for? They are also designed for a quick temporary source of protein. Protein from food is the most optimal way to ingest it. An you can only utilize soo much at one time and its obvious that from one person to another it varies depending on their physical expulsion that day and the amount of lean tissue they carry.
"Protein to gain is a load of shit" Without protein you will not gain bonehead.....
Judging by your eroids handle you planned on stirring shit. Well you have my attention.
the_1_man_riotThe problem is simple, eating protein will not gain u "extra" muscle size. Your body can only handle what it can. The rest will be shit or pissed out. Yes you are right about the protein in people with cancer because in this study, the protein actually went to the muscle which was beneficial. But as of muscle gain its been proven that a normal intake will gain you exactly the same as if somebody had more
WRONG BIG TIME. WRONG WRONG WRONG
The study had first time trainers, DUH...of course they do not need a lot of protein, they never trained before lmao, 50 grams a day will build plenty on a first timer in the gym, Take a veteran who is already muscular and wants to take it to the next level... more protein is definitely required PLAIN AND SIMPLE.
the_1_man_riotCan you proove it though? Everybody jumps the gun to eat X amount of protein to gain extra muscle. Unless you know this for a fact then i believe you are wrong
Anyone who has developed a significant amount of muscle (i.e.... 5'5'' 180lb, 5'9'' 210lb, 6ft- 240lb all single digit body fat) ....knows that it takes more protein then what the everyday joe consumes on a daily bases to get there. It is a matter of experience. You can not get this big on 50 grams of protein a day, of course 400+ grams per day is getting carried away and absolutely not necessary either but protein is extremely essential and protein shakes ( although food is a better choice) do make the journey easier and simply more convenient.
Oh and BTW I tried a 8 day liquid diet once to get shredded quick for an event. It was 4 shakes per day X 2 scoops per shake of protein. I was blown away on how effective it was. Went from no visible six pack to single digits and kept all my muscle in record time. Protein shakes ? a+
Dude, there are hundreds and hundreds of studies about protein and body composition. Of course, many have lacks in some kind of way but I'll put it in a general perspective.
Most people can build muscle already on a protein intake as low as 0.7gr/lbs of lbm. Now take newly trained individuals whos LBM is pretty low compared to an advanced athlete.
So there's no high need for those individuals for a high protein intake to because they don't have much LBM in the first place. So to speak (I keep it pretty simplistic) they need X amounts to fuel their lbm they already have + X amounts for building new muscle.
Further they are way beyond their genetic limitation, thus the body "won't fight" against building new muscle tissue, because let's keep in mind that the body still thinks we're caveman to a certaing degree and it just wants to keep us alive. More muscle means more energy expenditure which leads to we need to hunt more to fuel the expensive muscle tissue. So the more advanced a trainee gets, the more lbm he has to get fueled+protein to build new muscle tissue.
So to recap:
Newbie -> low lbm-> low protein needs for all processes within the body+retain lbm-> lower total amount of protein needs compared to a highly trained indivudual.
In the end, there are so many things wrong with this "study" and so is with your statement that Protein supplements are a waste. They have their place if some can't get on their daily protein intake with whole foods they are a convenient way of getting to it. Let alone being said that whey is pretty cheap for what you get and has one of the highest bioavaibilities. Still, they are only supplements and should be treated as such!
StevebHave you ever heard of One World Whey? Or other protein powders that have never been exposed to heat. It's supposed to be the closest thing to drinking raw milk.
No I haven't. I'll have to read up on it.
Tell that to these pair of protein hungry biceps I own!
the_1_man_riotLol its all in your head. They would have grown anyway
What kind of supplements, a shake?
Did they all gain the same amount of muscle?
Did they all have the same amount of "meal time" protein?
Do you have a link to this program?
Use the search function to get links like this.
https://www.eroids.com/forum/general/off-topic/can-your-body-absorb-more...
the_1_man_riotYes they all gained the same
it was a shake
Bbc iplayer
Without getting into reviewing your TV show yet, read the replies in the link I provided above.
It sounds like the study is flawed or misleading.
Food protein is always best, and will be fully digested. Your body will use only what it needs and convert the rest to energy. Do you know how much your body needs exactly? No, so you eat more, and you eat often.
Liquid protein (supplement) is another matter. It is not useless, but over relying on liquid protein is foolhardy and a waste of your money. When used, it should be small amounts spread out over time. Not like a mega shake with 80 grams of whey.
And I believe, without having reviewed your program yet, that that is the point they were trying to make.
Good questions Greg. He didn't mention any of those.
StevebI believe it's genetics too. Some people definitely utilize protein better than others.