Building up tolerance to AAS, tapering, cold turkey
Yes, I know what pumps are. But I'm new to juicing and never had a huge AAS pump like my first one the other night. Just a little background:
5+ years lifting
Learned from the best although not the best student
Raised my testosterone as high as it gets without exogenous help
Tried a few things to raise it more and they worked and actually took me into the zone where I'd fail a doping test. Took the strongest natural anabolics and reaped a little benefit for a while. Pine pollen 200:1 extract was easily the best addition to my stack but I never hear it talked about.
Anyway, I got sick of swallowing dozens of pills and having to add more unpleasant tasting powders to my protein shakes and they(natural anabolic sources + test boosters) stopped having any noticable effect. This is simply a matter of building up a tolerance to it. You need more for the same effect. Pretty soon you need even more for less effect etc.
I did done test e at 250mg a week. Everyone said it was a waste and it was but I also realised I was progressively building up a small amount of resistance to anabolics. Obviously not as much resistance as I have now but enough to not notice any difference from 250mg a week. But instead of upping the test I decided to add deca.
But I knew from experience with pain meds and other things that building up this progressive tolerance is not the best way to use something like AAS.
I'll give you an example. The medical establishment prescribe opiates to be taken every day and to space out dosing with half life to keep a constant serum level. This is idiot and creates junkies within weeks. They need to up their dose until their doctor calls the limit then they realise how things work and they have to either
- Get more on the black market
Or
- Cut down
Neither makes anything easier. The problem is rapidly building up tolerance and being on them all day with a constant serum level. That's a recipe for making junkies.
I think you get my point. Doctors should prescribe and patients should take opiates for chronic pain only when pain is at its worst and let serum levels drop for as long as possible - long intervals between small as possible dosage)
No one should really need painkillers at all unless they've just had some traumatic injury or are Longterm chronic pain sufferers. Very few people can actually manage addictive meds like oxycodone. I knew the effect of regular opiate use on metabolic rate and testosterone levels so I was keen to get off the shit. Unfortunately, it worked like this with me:
Woke up on self administered fentanyl drip. No pain at all really and decided not to press the button for kicks. They took me off that after 24hrs and prescribed up to 40mg Oxynorm(sustained release oxycodone) a day no more than 10mg in 6 hours. I literally didn't need any the whole time I was in hospital. Why? Because I was lying down in bed.
Sent home with a few 10 mg Oxynorm and 10 x endone(5mg immediate release oxycodone). I used it all up real quick. Because that's when the pain started. When I had to get out of bed and start walking.
I was fortunate in that that particular pain went away by itself after a few weeks. It was nerve pain in my feet. But before it did I ran out of pain killers and I couldn't get anymore. It was another lesson to be wary of medical professionals.
But getting to the point. We like to take AAS the same way Doctors prescribe opiates - keeping a constant serum level and on it all the time throughout the cycle. We have valid reasons - not wanting to be up and down like a manic depressive. But that's not necessarily the only other way to manage AAS cycles.
Has anyone tried unique ways of cycling - eg, taking a large dose to start(2wks), tapering to a sensible level(3 or 4 weeks) going on to PCT in whatever way works for you. Then a long enough break to REDUCE TOLERANCE? I think the last part is key to both recovery and successful gains. But it's just a hunch from a little experience with very different drugs and minimal AAS experience.
First thing notice my example is a short cycle.
Second point is to use AAS with as short a half life as possible. The longer the half life the harder it is to reduce tolerance. IR oxycodone is a high like heroin and SR not quite as much but SR will be harder to taper down(get off). So what's the deal with the tapering haters? And why can't you have a "big hit" of a short half life AAS and let levels drop and put up with any discomfort in order to keep tolerance low? This seems like the best strategy for rapid gains to me. It may not be as smooth a cycle but beginning each cycle with a low tolerance and a big hit then going through a taper down seems the way to go based on my experiences so far. I also loved the Drol pumps but as soon as the drol kicked in it kicked out again as I was advised to drop it. I'm thinking maybe I should've kept it up for the first few weeks.
I think tapers aren't popular as it's believed they're not as effective for recovery and / or too complicated.
Any thoughts?
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(https://www.eroids.com/forum/general/general-talk/switching-compounds-so...)
Read this whole thread.
That's what I was talking. Over saturating the receptors. I have always assumed that's the main reason compounds are stacked.
I'm not sure I'm a big fan of test. I know that's a crazy thing to say but it wasn't till the Drol kicked in that even noticed any difference. As soon as drol levels dropped I was back to same. I read the whole thread and noticed a poster mention "pulsing" drol and DBol. Interesting article anyway. I'm currently test e 200mg eod. Maybe it's best to drop the whole thing > PCT > break > start afresh with tren.
Hey bro,
I am not a fan of running any stack without a Test base. It can be done but it is uncommon. Tren is highly suppressive of your body's ability to product Test and if you run a cycle without supplementing with at least a low level of Test, you are inviting a boatload of progestin side effects from the Tren. The same would be true if you ran deca without Test. Oral steroids are highly toxic to the liver and kidneys and they should be run for short periods of time (4-6 weeks) with a blood test taken to see how your organs are affected. There is so much information on this in the archives (magnifying glass on top).
Let me know if you are having any trouble. I just sent you a friend request (FR) so we can exchange PM (private mail) on this website.
GH
Cheers thanks. And yes I've heard about tren sides - cabergoline is good for progresterone sides.
And I was only on drol for about 7-8? Days. I know it's highly hepatotoxic like most orals.
So add TRT level dose of test. Yes, I've heard that advice too and will take it. Thanks.
It's good to question conventional ways; that's where innovation comes from. I'm no cycle expert, but since you ask for thoughts:
Why try to spike levels at the beginning? Conventional cycles already reach 10x natural levels. After a certain concentration is the body able to make use of any more?
Why so short as 5-6 weeks? You don't get many opportunities to increase the weight you're lifting, especially if you train each muscle 1x per week. I'd actually say this cycle would require a 2x per week split or more. (Less frequent worked better for my body type when natural, but it's not fair to extrapolate too much from that.)
Why even be concerned about tolerance? For addiction potential, I think testosterone can tend to raise dopamine but in a slow way that doesn't amount to operant conditioning to dose again like opiates do. For resistance to the wanted effects, it would seem to me you'd want to keep levels high enough for long enough to get some of those wanted effects "in the bank" and then take a nice long time off.
The digestive system must be limited in the rate it can put amino acids into the blood. The nervous system must be limited in its ability to demand more reps. Given these limited rates, it would seem good to allow enough time to maximize volume (of utilitzed amino acids and foot-pounds).
There's also a little undercurrent of "see what a hard hit feels like." That's irrelevant if the goal is to build muscle. The comparison of AAS to recreational drugs probably stops pretty soon after, "the're both illegal," and to extrapolate from "illegal" is a fallacy.
I have yet to understand why anyone ever feels the need to kickstart, especially in a hepatotoxic way. 12 weeks is nothing. A need for things to happen faster suggests a lack of dedication that means those results will disappear almost as quickly. While a noob, there are two things I am sure AAS are not: 1) quick, 2) fix.
I was told kickstarting a cycle gives you a longer window of time to make gains when you're using a long ester base like test e.
Ok so since no one has mentioned this at all steroids actually upregulate the androgen receptor. Different receptors in your body have different reactions to high or low levels of their specific substrate. There's no tolerance that will ever be built. You see people using more and more simply because they're getting larger and it's harder to put on mass, and they can also utilize more because of the receptor upregulation without it floating around and interacting with other enzymes and causing sides etc. Myostatin and other factors obviously come into play as well.
Here's a couple articles on it:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15472231
http://www.jbc.org/content/267/2/968.short
RustyhookerFolks fail at upping calories and add more gear thinking it's the gear. Anyone running a perfect first cycle adds 15+ pounds. Folks rely on gear when their foods and gym are the culprits.
You hit a plateau and rule 1 is add calories.
My bad I absolutely didn't mean to say adding food isn't primarily what you need to put on more weight. I was just trying to say you don't down-regulate receptors and build a tolerance to it and need to "clear your receptors" like I've seen a lot of people say.
Uh huh. I'm currently 200lbs and 15%bf. I calculate how many calories I need for maintenance of lean mass and add the required surplus. I've been doing this for 5+ years. Calorie counting, macro ratios etc.
RustyhookerReading through all of this I'd suggest you step away from anabolics all together. Everything I'm reading is just switching from one addiction to another. I'd suggest you check yourself in and get the help you need. The long written form shows dependency issues and justifying that it's ok to proceed.
Please find help bro. The switch will only draw you back in
I took oxycodone for about five days. i wasn't an "addict". I was saying if I'd sat in bed in hospital taking it when I wasn't in pain i very well might have been.
My parents were both prescribed oxycodone for cancer pain and that's how they managed it. They only took it when they were really in a lot of pain.
My other point was doctors are prescribing it for constant use.
In my understanding stability is the key to running a successful cycle. You want get the serum blood levels to their peak and hold them there for as long as possible so they can do their magic. I think what you are proposing would be a cycle riddle with side effects due to constantly fluctuating hormone levels. Steroids do take time to work and with the short duration that you are proposing would result in a very inefficient cycle. You are basically taking them long enough to shut your HPTA down but not long enough to elecit much an anabolic effect. I would think that these repeated shut downs are going to take a toll on the body pretty quick and in return you haven't even gained much of an anabolic response.
I think a big issue here is that people are using the excuse that "I have built up a tolerance so I need to up my dose and start stacking multiple compounds". For most of us I think that excuse is bullshit. As long as your body is in an anabolic environment, if you train and feed it properly you will grow. The more muscle mass you gain the harder this going to become obviously because you have to eat more and that can become very difficult, but if you are in an anabolic state and give the body the building blocks it needs to grow (food) it will grow given the right stimulus (training). If I am wrong here, someone explain to me how even just 500mg of test would not put you in an anabolic state.
You have to be aware though that no matter how much steroids you take or how much that you eat that your body will only be able to hold so much mass, otherwise we would all be 400lbs and 8% BF. So I think it is not so much the body building a tolerance to the drugs as much as it is the body only being able to carry so much mass. Different genetics will allow for different amounts of mass to ultimately be packed onto a certain frame. Some drugs may put that mass on faster than others but that isn't due to the body building up a tolerance vs one drug or another.
1st paragraph - thanks, that's good information. I didn't consider that about short cycles.
2nd paragraph - yep.
3rd - yes, that's right. Surplus calories, good macro ratio, micros, stimulus = anabolic metabolism
As stated below. You're not comparing apples to apples. It would be more along the lines of your receptors becoming saturated to the point that they basically become like a locked door and wont let the hormone in anymore. Once you've been here on eroids long enough you'll learn that anybody with any true knowledge will tell you to run straight test only cycles for as long as possible. Stay with around 500mgs a week for 10 to 12 weeks at a time. Run a proper post cycle and stay off for the proper amount of time as well. With a good diet and proper training you should see good gains for a long time to come. You should take your proposed cycle to the cycle logs forum and get some more advice.
It would require a little calculation and regular bloods but one thing I'd like to do next time is start on test suspension so I can get levels up early, have an ester depot kick in as you taper down the suspension.
most of that was a waste of typing, who gives a fuk about jumkies and opiates and tolerance or what ever the fuck.
half life is key, keep plasma levels at their pek, administer shots at the correct time, your reffering to a frontload, yes its common, there is no" rapid' get this short cut shit out of your mind.
fuck the pump, tear the fibres down, thats how you grow, dont get pre occupies with taking supps or roids for the "pump"
tapers? they are good, way easier and better transition into pct and recovery is quicker.
succesfull gains? = diet, stroids just assist.
good luck.
Thanks, yes I've been doing this a while. Lifting that is.
Frontload? I've only heard that in reference to filling a syringe barrel from the front with another syringe. So you don't like a front loaded cycle + taper? Fair enough.
a frontload, use the blue magnify glass top left of screen, type it in.
its when you double or triple the dose in th first week or to to get higher blood plasma levels of the compound quicker.
GearofWarThere is no such things as a traditional "withdrawal" from AAS like other chemicals with co-dependency characteristics. Such as benzos, alcohol, and opiates. I know this as I'm a fucking dirty junky. Not proud. AAS doesn't work on receptors in the brain like those other addictive substances do. They do not change serotonin and dopamine levels in the same way those others do. Can Tren fuck with dopamine indirectly due to increased prolactin from it's use? Yes. Does it DIRECTLY affect dopamine? Not at all. So if you're coming off-cycle and you're "withdrawing", that my friend is 100% all in your head. Also, can the pump and drastically increased physical presence gear gives you become addicting? Sure can but that's all in your own mind. This becomes a very blurry line. As the word "addiction" can be defined in a multitude of ways, especially when interpreted on an individual, case by case basis. But if you've ever been dope sick and tried to kick you'll know that coming "off-cycle" isn't remotely similar to kicking a dope, downer, or mean drunk addiction..
okay, but you do build tolerance that's why you start low and need more to break through plateau. It's not an "addiction" like dope oobviously and tolerance doesn't develop by the same mechanism but it's still building up a tolerance.
I think you're incorrect with the "building up a tolerance" issue, there's no science to suggest the body reacts that way to exogenous hormones. I'd go as far as to say to you it doesn't. Steroids aren't the same as drugs like opiates or NSAIDs in that respect. The confusion comes because people add more and more every cycle. If you ran the same cycle repeatedly time and time again you would get diminishing returns, but that's largely due too pushing past your natural limits.
If it's true that you don't build up a tolerance then why start with 500 test only? Why not a pro-bber off season super stack? And then the fact you make your best gains on first cycle. That's because your body isn't used to so much and it hits hard first off, body adapts and tolerance is not as high. I think maybe you don't like word tolerance and comparison to narcotics because you think I'm suggesting addiction. Not necessarily the same thing.
Because you don't need to????? I fail to see the relevance of this to be honest.
Big incorrect assumption. I don't dislike any of the words. I'm just telling you your body doesn't react that way to exogenous hormones. Call it tolerance, building up a resistance etc, whatever floats your boat. Doesn't work that way.
As your body gains more mass it becomes harder and harder to keep putting more on it. I go back to my point where we would all be 400lbs and 8% BF. It is not a matter of building a tolerance to the drug. It a matter of the body resisting to put more mass on because muscle is a liability to the body since it requires energy to maintain it. It does not like to carry that increased mass (liability) around so it will resist to the bitter end putting more on. That is why mass gained in future cycles is usually less than the first couple of cycles. You didn't have as much mass in the beginning so the body didn't resist so much putting it on. The more advanced hard-core stacks are for those competitors who have reached that level in their muscular growth were it is going to be difficult to put mass on and you need to trick the bodies mechanisms with those additional drugs in that stack to help make that happen. In reality those super stacks are likely only putting on a few pounds of lbm, but every ounce counts at the professional level and that is why they do it. There is no need for those superstacks to begin with because the body will grow just fine with a simple stack because you haven't gotten close to what I call the body's "critical mass" threshold. It is just foolish and irresponsible to run a pro BB stack when it is clearly not warranted. So this whole issue of the body building a tolerance to the drugs is a moot point. It is not building up a tolerance to the drugs, they are working just fine, it is the body's natural instinct to prevent any further muscle mass gain which people may be interpreting as building up a tolerance to the drug.
It was just a hyperthetical question not my idea for my next cycle. And everything you say above is correct regarding gains on or off juice. I see everyone agrees that resistance or sensitivity to AAS doesn't occur. That's good news of course.
Just to clarify, this is an example of the sort of cycle I'm suggesting:
Wks1-2 very high dose of short half life oral
With say, a short active half life injectable like Tren ace or test suspension and make the whole cycle top heavy with a nice taper. Short cycle too with long enough break to lose tolerance?
Also, there'd need to be some careful management at the beginning between oral and injectable/s. Test suspension has 24 hr active half life so you'd need to boost AAS levels right from day one really.
This is just a guess. I haven't calculated just approximated. And it's hyperthetical.
Week 1 + 2
First day d'bol 100mg
+
Whichever test depot kicks in closest to 14 days?
+
Test suspension.
Taper a little suspension down over first six days as daily d'bol builds up and kicks in
As test depot kicks in taper down suspension more to keep serum levels at the level you want. Saves money. But the overall goal is a front heavy bang then either stay on the bang for a few weeks or immediately start a taper when AAS levels at their peak?
Please forgive any newb mistakes and ignorance. But the overall idea is to manage AAS effectively like I have done with other meds such as pain killers when I've needed them. The goal is realky the same only AAS shut down endogenous production entirely and immediately, quite likely never recover if you fuck it up. I've just started with AAS and I'm trying to take the orthodox approach but it just doesn't seem like the right way of doing things for me. Tapers are complex and I don't want a sudden harsh bang with painful pumps to begin a cycle but Drol gave me an Incredible pump last night and because I stopped taking it a couple of days ago levels are dropping so I'm not where I want to be. Test e won't kick in for a while and I could've dropped or lowered the drol as depot kicked in. Drol is heptatoxic shit but it was originally prescribed for osteoporosis so it has an added bonus for me as my bone density is a little low.
I've got a shitload or gear coming and probably a letter from customs and I'm just tossing around ideas for a future cycle. I'm not going to play around with my current test only cycle beyond upping the test a bit but I think my original plan of a front heavy first cycle with a few weeks of Drol would've been more suited to me. Having said that I'm sure it's good advice in general for beginners. I'm the one who screwed things a bit by doing a 250mg cycle after upping endogenous levels so the whole process has developed a little AAS insensitivity. And that's bad news. Obviously I will build up tolerance but I know how to manage tolerance. The intervals between cycles are most important to reducing tolerance obviously. Maintenance of production and recovery are my first priority but building a tolerance quickly and inefficient use is something I need to work out for myself too.
Drol pumps are great. I wish it wasn't so poisonous.