low dose oral d-bol only
Lads, I'm basically 40 years old. My natural test levels are between 320 and 400, depending on the two doc's I've gone to. My normal doc referred me to a urologist, and he says my free T is "the very low side of normal, but not worth prescribing medication," but friends, I'm wiped out. Neither doc is willing to diagnose me with "low T" and put me on TRT. That is why I'm here, trying to learn if I can take my health choices into my own hands.
Several blood tests have revealed that: my liver enzyme numbers are "as good as a 21 year old" and my cholesterol is "damn good" and all health markers say that I should be healthy as a 25 year old. Only my natural testosterone is on the low end of "normal."
Sadly, my blood work numbers betray my reality.
Here's where I'm at, physically. I'm tired, I have low libido, I'm mentally foggy as hell, and I take up to a week to recover from heavy volume workouts. Sometimes I'll be sore in my chest or legs for a week, regardless of whether I push really hard or I back off and skip a few sets here and there. I promise I'm not complaining. I'm just lethargic as f**k. I'm simply sharing where I'm at, from a physical standpoint.
Mentally, I am cloudy, can't remember shit, I'm moodier than I should be, I'm overly emotional, and I simply feel "low." I've had depression for portions of my adult life, and I simply just "go through the motions" in regards to my day to day.
I don't have the mental clarity to attack the projects that my brain thinks up. I have dreams, but I'm just so damn tired, I don't get after the first steps to getting sh*t done. It's rough.
Now that I've learned that Low T is an actual real condition, this has given me hope that maybe I can change my predicament.
I don't have any symptoms of high Estrogen, but rather I suffer (and I use "suffer" in a very literal sense) from much lower than average testosterone for my age.
Don't judge, just listen, and help if you can, please.
I'm a husband and a dad to two little boys who aren't yet in elementary school. My wife is "rule follower," and the idea of "steroids" is absolutely "AGAINST THE RULES!" I'm not a pot smoker, but I don't care what people do with themselves. However, my bride WILL NOT smoke pot, because, gasp that's agains the law! As a bride, she's been a very loving woman, but since she is simply indoctrinated into the whole, "if the law says it's bad, then it must be terrible" mentality, then I must use discretion in my choice to find alternative medical therapies for my current predicament.
Obviously, I don't trust ANYONE to take care of me. My docs are beholden to a system that handcuffs them.
As a man, I have an innate need to be "strong enough" (aka-well enough) to take care of my bride as well as my two young children. I hate being lethargic. Hate it.
My diet & exercise are good. Not bad, not great, just good. I eat lean and green by default. I'm a gardener, and we eat a lot of pastured meat and eggs (little to no antibiotics in the animals we eat). I'll eat wings at the chain restaurant on game day, but that's not the usual. Overall, my diet can't be blamed for this level of lethargy.
Regardless, I feel like if I am to try and supplement my lifestyle with low dose AAS, then I would be best served by low dose orals to start.
Orals are easy enough to keep "hidden from the wife and kids." Sure, needles can be discreetly hidden as well, but orals are simply much, much easier to be discreet on a domestic home front.
PLEASE DON'T JUDGE ME ON YOUR GOALS. I promise, for YOU, I indeed have your back in YOUR physique & strength goals.
Have my back in mine, please, and hear me out, even though they're not the typical AAS "size" related goals.
I have read a lot on low dose supplementation with dianabol at 10mg a day, five days a week, weekends off, then take two weeks off every few months (aka- 8 weeks on, 3 weeks off, 8 weeks on, 3 weeks off, etc). This gives the liver a lot of time to rest and recover, and it seems to be a "safe" way to use d-bol orals over a long period of time.
Assuming my liver blood work doesn't go crazy over two months of 10mg a day with weekends off, I think this is something that might work really well for me. If I could find a source for 5mg pills, I'd even start with that and see how I feel from there.
Dianabol is cheap, it keeps for a long time (doesn't go bad) and users report a "sense of well being" element that I feel like I could really benefit from.
Friends, I'm not looking for your approval to "do drugs so I can have a sense of well being." I'm looking for honest feed back on your take for MY situation. I simply hope to benefit from a low dose of an oral product. My research has lead me to dianabol, but I'm writing this to get YOUR feedback on MY situation.
What would you do at age 40 with two young kids and a wife who was a "rule follower?" (I don't need marital advice. My marriage will benefit GREATLY from me being less lethargic, no doubt.)
My goal is to take control of my own health, my own well being, my own strength to take care of my family, but not fry my body & liver out in the process.
I don't wanna fry what's left of my libido either, and the added strength & muscle I would have from small dose oral AAS could have long term positive effects in my day to day life for as long as I live.
At 10mg a day (or even 5mg a day if I can find 5mg pills), five days a week, 8 weeks on, three off, I'm still less way less than HALF of what most guys are doing for much shorter cycles. Again, I don't need to bench eight total plates. I just wanna feel good enough to run around with my kids, have fun with my wife when the time calls for it, and kick enough butt to mow the lawn when needed.
Any input on my goal is greatly appreciated. Thoughts? Thanks! -Zeus
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Looks like its already been said, and 99% of the people on this board will give you the same answer. DBol is not your answer my friend. Best option is to get a new doctor. Your levels are low, but the current medical practice operates behind 300-1100 ish within normal range. This concept has been proven ineffective many times over, however medically a new method has not been adopted to guage low T in relation to age. Some doctors follow the standard, the sharper ones understand and go against it.
If injections worry you there are gels and tablets that dissolve in your mouth, however those methods are not ideal, but are prescribed at times to low T patients. I am married myself with 2 little ones so I understand your pain.
Maybe an anti aging clinic can be of some value. They routinely prescribe Test and/or GH to folks....they tend to go against the grain regarding "acceptable test ranges".
@Sensi, as always to the peeps on here that are willing to give their advice, I sincerely appreciate it. Peeps here are patient, blunt, and very candid. There's been very little judgement (flaming) in regards to my request for input, too. Peeps here really actually give a damn at helping each other out. It's encouraging as hell!
The more I dig, the more I'm realizing that indeed, d-bol isn't a "logical fix." Damn.
Having only been on this site for a few weeks, I've learned so damn much. I've lifted a long time and peaked long ago in strength and size. Regardless of my current low T situation, I'm now committed to learning all I can (success and mistakes) from this site to better inform my decisions going forward in both TRT, as well as the possibility of trying a cycle of AAS, especially since I'm looking at a more physically demanding career that would benefit from better muscular strength and endurance.
However, in the end, I'm really seeing my current situation as "I'm sick and need medicine" rather than "I'm tired and need a pick me up." @sensei, your input just adds to the voice that's already in my head. Again, thanks for your advice! I'm in a rural area with no "anti aging clinic" but I'm not giving up hope. I'll be looking around and keeping my eyes & ears open, as it sounds that they actually understand that low T is a QUALITY OF LIFE situation. So, your input (and that of all the peeps here who give a damn) is very much appreciated.
Youre in the right place. Low T is a medical health issue that can cause more than just a non working member. Your wife is correct bu stating "AAS are illegal", however they are absolutely legal when prescribed my qualified medical practitioner...it is legal for these purposes for a reason. Maybe you have to travel a ways to find a doc, but once you get the prescription I think that will go a long way in opening your wifes eyes...be easier for you if shes onboard. A good doctor will even explain it to her.
I wish you well. You are not alone in this condition. Hop over to the "over 40 trt" forum. lots of good info there.
As the guys said below dbol is not suitable for testosterone replacement therapy because dbol is not testosterone and it will shut down your own body's natural testosterone production.
I appreciate your situation. It's messed up that so many doctors are rigidly sticking to a range of 'normal' test levels instead of listening to the patient and taking their symptoms into account. I agree with Irongame below. Keep looking for a doctor who is willing to help you and when you find one bring your wife with you for a consultation so she is engaged in the process.
Good luck brother.
@Whitetrash, dude, thank you too for your input, as well as your good mojo too. My wife is a cool chick, but she's simply a rule follower. As the years have gone on, she's starting to sort of wake up to the whole, "why are we putting people in jail for smoking weed?" stuff that makes no sense. I see her "slow awakening" as a gateway to the conversation about AAS, eventually. I've mentioned "steroids are simply hormones that people use to get desired results, no different than birth control for women. It's a hormone that gives you a result you want, nothing more." But she instantly gets defensive, "but steroids are against the law!" Alas, changing one's world view takes time.
As for good luck, I need every ounce I can get! Hell, we all do. Again, @Whitetrash, thank you for giving a damn as well and responding. I have failed so damn much in the past regarding things non-AAS related that I wanted as much info as could regarding this "low dose d-bol" premise. I'm also old enough to listen to those who have experience that have failed or succeeded before me. It's the exact reason I reached out to this community with my blog post (which, my apologies for making it such a long ass one). However, I feel good that whatever I can contribute in regards to the growing body of knowledge for others to make decisions with, hopefully if someone has the same idea in the years to come, they'll stumble on this thread and get more info to hopefully better make their own decisions too.
So these are the two posts from another forum that sort of put my brain on this path of thinking. From your experiences, please let me know if y'all think this low dose of d-bol approach might be plausible, even as a "first cycle" approach that might lead to a few cycles a year. (Granted, my goals aren't strength, size or mass, but I feel like I'd benefit greatly from increased strength as well.)
DIANABOL
This article was originally intended to be a history of the anabolic steroid dianabol and it's usage in bodybuilding, but there is little real evidence of how it was used in previous decades. However, in the course of research, I have come to the conclusion that current use of dianabol as a supplement is not as efficient as it could be. Most of the modern thoughts on dianabol use reflect around myths and irrelevant scientific studies; this article attempts to explain new ways of thinking on dianabol usage using scientific evidence and people's experiences.
Dianabol (or dbol as it's commonly called) is one of the most commonly used oral steroids. Its chemical name is methandienone or methandrostenolone and there are many different pharmaceutical and generic varieties including Anabol and Naposim. In this article we look at lower dose usage of dianabol as a supplement, as opposed to using pro-hormones or pro-steroids.
Liver Toxicity of Dianabol
The 17 alpha-alkylated properties of methanedienone do make it liver toxic, but this, I believe, is overstated as most of the evidence of its toxicity comes from studies on individuals and not from studies on large groups of dianabol-using bodybuilders. One study on rats (1) showed that regardless of dose or time of administration, dianabol produces changes in enzymatic activity, which leads to hypertrophy of hepatocytes; which basically shows that dianabol is toxic to the liver. But in another study (2) Nerobol (Russian Dianabol) was found to favor a rapid normalization of functional and metabolic disorders of the liver, which contradicts the earlier evidence. This shows that the whole idea of dianabol being dangerous is in no way as bad as some would make out.
Benefits of Dianabol Use
Dianabol has been shown to increase anaerobic glycolysis (3), which increases lactic acid build up in the body. This is beneficial because lactic acid is used by the muscles to form glycogen, which in turn provides energy in anaerobic metabolism. Lactic acid is also a key chemical in the disposal of dietary carbohydrates, which means you are less likely to get fat while using dianabol.
A study on osteoporosis (4) showed that at a dosage of just 2.5mg per day for 9 months dianabol was more effective than calcium supplementation in reducing osteoporotic activity, it was also shown to increase muscle mass more effectively. Another study on osteoporosis (5) which lasted 24 months, showed just how dianabol works on osteoporosis; dianabol increased total body calcium, and also total body potassium. This may not mean much to you as a bodybuilder, but the actions of calcium are very important to bodybuilders, as it transports large numbers of amino acids and also creatine and these two things are vital in muscle growth. Potassium is also very important, as it assists in muscle contractions, transmitting nerve signals, and insulin release; so it is also a very anabolic substance.
One very interesting study (6), although not significant in bodybuilding terms, showed that dianabol increases the sensitivity of laryngeal tumour cells to radiotherapy, and concluded 'recommending this hormone to be used during radiotherapy of patients with the laryngeal cancer'.
How to Cycle Dianabol
To create a cycle for dianabol that is based around using it more as a supplement than a steroid, we first need to look at the current trend for cycling dianabol and analyze what is wrong with it. An average cycle of Dianabol is usually structured as 25-40mg split throughout each day for 4-6 weeks, either alone or stacked with other steroids.
Firstly a dose of 25mg or more commonly causes water retention. It is well known that dianabol does aromatize quite easily, and most of the water retention is usually attributed to a build up of excess estrogen. However, it is my belief that initially water retention is caused by the body holding on to water due to the effects of dianabol on the body's mineral balance, in particular the potassium/sodium balance. This coupled with the fact that dianabol causes estrogenic side effects, leads to a lot of water build-up, and as there is little we can do about the change in the bodies mineral balance, the only other thing we can do is try to reduce aromatization, usually with Nolvadex (tamoxifen) or other anti-estrogens. This is not the only method though, by reducing the dose, less of the drug will aromatize, which leads to less estrogen and more importantly less water retention. Reducing the drug during a cycle would lead to estrogen levels dropping slowly, so we should start the cycle with a lower dose of 10-20mg each day.
Splitting the dosage when you are using a low dose is virtually pointless, as you will get a much smaller peak of the drug. So in this case it is best to take it in a single dose in the morning (preferably with grapefruit juice). Although this will not prevent suppression of natural testosterone, it may lessen it to a certain degree, as your body will still have lengthy periods later in the day when there is little testosterone circulating, and so it may still produce some.
Now if we look at cycle duration, 4-6 weeks seems too short to have any real effect at a low dose, but how can we use dianabol for longer without placing more risk on our liver? The solution is actually quite simple; by taking weekends off from the drug we will give our livers a break from processing the drug. Due to the short half-life any active substances will be out of our system within 24 hours of your last dose, now this may seem like it will cost you gains, but in actual fact it will cost you little or no losses in the long run as even though there is no active drug in the body the effects are still present i.e. extra intramuscular water, and a more anabolic mineral balance. These effects usually taper off over several days. This method will not however, help your natural testosterone to return from its inhibited state, as this process can take considerably longer. If we take weekends off and use a lower dose, we should in theory be able to use dianabol for 10 weeks with no problems. A simple bit of mathematics can show this point best:
6 weeks @25mg each day = 1050mg of Dianabol in total
10 weeks with weekends off @15mg each day = 750mg of Dianabol in total
So as you can see, by using this system your liver will actually process less dianabol than in a conventional cycle, add this to the fact that you can make gains for 10 weeks instead of 6, and with fewer side effects, and you get a very solid cycle.
Summary
This Cycle Theory can be applied in many different situations, for instance a beginner could use the dianabol on it's own for 10 weeks and gain very well. A more experienced steroid user could use this alongside an injectable cycle for very good gains too, getting the benefit of the initial quick gains of the Dianabol, with the slower but stronger gains of an injectable.
This cycle may seem to go against many of the current trends of dianabol use, but I believe that by using dianabol as a supplement to good training and nutrition you can make very good gains.
References
Effects of methandrostenolone on liver morphology and enzymatic activity. Nesterin MF, Budik VM, Narodetskaia RV, Solov'eva GI, Stoianova VG.
An experimental study of the hepatoprotective properties of phytoecdysteroids and Nerobol in carbon tetrachloride induce liver lesions. Syrov VN, Khushbaktova ZA, Nabiev AN.
Effects of methanedienone (methandrostenolone) on energy processes and carbohydrate metabolism in rat liver cells. Serakovskii S, Mats'koviak Iu.
Calcium, vitamin D and anabolic steroid treatment of aged bones: double-blind placebo-controlled long-term clinical trial. Inkovaara J, Gothoni G, Halttula R, Heikinheimo R, Tokola O.
Changes in body composition following therapy of osteoporosis with methandrostenolone. Mann V, Benko AB, Kocsar LT.
Radiomodifying effect of methandrostenolone on laryngeal cancer cells. Bordiushkov IuN, Kucherova TI, Kisliakova ND, Vagner VP, Zubkova TV.
This is the second forum post that has lead me to pursue more opinions about the low dose d-bol approach.
THE DIANABOL BRIDGE EXPLAINED
I've been reading some of the posts regarding this bridge and some of them are truly from left-field.
First of, this is a BRIDGE. OK? a B-R-I-D-G-E.
Your LH function and Test levels are supposed to RECOVER.
Ok, now having said that: Here's the pharmo-kinetics behind Methandrostenelone, brand name Dianabol. 10mg taken at once will increase your average testosterone level by 5 times and decrease your endogeneous cosrtisone by 50-70%.
The reason why dianabol is a good choice for a bridge is that its VERY anti-catabolic. It also dopaminergic. Giving you the benefits of increased CNS strength modulation by its androgenic mode of action. Androgens, in case you don't know, increase neuro-muscular function, thus STRENGTH.
OK. Now, lets delve into the metabolic chemistry behind dianabol's choice as a bridging agent.
Question: When are testosterone levels highest?
Answer: In the AM, thats when. Your body releases a testosterone spike in the morning. This is when testosterone levels are highest.
When are Insulin levels lowest? Answer: In the AM thats when. Low insulin levels=increased protein used as fuel. (Also fat, but protein is also being converted to glucose via glucogenesis)
OK, here is where dball's short half-life works for us (Its 3.2-4.5 hrs btw)
Lets take Subject X. He's in bridging mode. He has just woken up. The body is about to release testosterone, thus creating a spike. His insulin levels are low. His LH and test levels are very low. He pops 10mgs of dianabol. Here is where things get interesting.
The 10mgs of dianabol will cause a testosterone spike WHICH COINCIDES WITH the testosterone released ENDOGENOUSLY in the AM by the testes. The body will be partially fooled. It will not entirely detect the increased levels of testosterone (above the normal test spike) and thus LH function WILL REMAIN only partially (very little actually) suppressed. In other words, he is "piggy-backing" an extra dose of testosterone on top of the endogenously reduced one, thus creating an "inflated" test spike.
Henceforth, LH levels WILL BE ALLOWED TO SLOWLY RECOVER over time. Also, d-bols’ anti-catabolic effect will help curb protein-loss in the morning from low insulogenic levels.
HOWEVER, HERE IS WHERE MOST MEN GO WRONG. YOU CANNOT GO PAST 10mg of dianabol in the AM for this bridge to work!!!! Why? Because of the blood levels of dianabol you would generate.
10mg in the AM will be broken down to 5mg in about 4 hrs, probably less. 5mg of dianabol is not enough to cause another rise in testosterone levels after the preceding one. Thus, LH function is allowed to up-regulate. Anything more (say 20mgs) will cause a SECONDARY testosterone spike which WILL inhibit LH function further, thus not allowing LH function to recover.
Oh yeah...100mgs? ROTLMFAO!! Fat chance.
The difference between 20mgs and 10mgs means the difference between allowing LH to recover slowly and not allowing it to.
So, here's the scenario summed up:
Beginning: LOW LH and test.
Adding the 10mgs dball in the morning upon waking up.
LH is allowed to SLOWLY RECOVER over time as testosterone levels are kept at a level which will not cause muscle-loss. Also, dbol’s anti-catabolic effects will reduce protein degradation via cortisone reduction.
This is what I call a double positive. You have managed to INCREASE anabolism (Test levels) and DECREASE catabolism (cortisone), during a bridge to boot!!
The bridge should last 8 weeks, NO LESS. I also have to say, that it WILL NOT restore complete LH function. It'll get you 80-90% of the way there but the only way you're going to get your full LH function back is if you go OFF completely.
Anavar WILL NOT restore LH completely either btw. (In case anybody is wondering.) The difference is that with anavar you can take it throughout the day and with dbol it HAS TO BE once in the AM.
Dbol is not the answer to feel better. I was in the same situation pretty much. My nat test lvl's are in your range and at my age docs refuse me any treatment worth a damn. Gels? No thanks. I've been doing trt for about a year and a half now (on my own), probably saved my life simply put without getting into details.
Its your life bro, its your choice. Hopefully you can find a good doctor to help you out. When you do, bring your wife along to an appointment to help her understand the benefits of trt, hopefully that will gain her support.
@super Mario, dude, Thank you for the good mojo. The mojo is much appreciated and needed! In regards to your own "taking your health into your own hands," how do you do it? Do you pin yourself with old fashioned test eth? I'm learning a lot in these forums. It gives me hope!
Yep, I like to use test e. 200mg a week cruise.
@super Mario, dude, I'm a total newbie. I know that Test E is "Testosterone Ethanate" but I don't know what "cruise" means. Sorry for the rudimentary question. Help? What does "cruise" mean?
"Maintenance dose"
I cycle twice a year and run about 200mg of test a week inbetween cycles.
Keep searching until you find the right doctor. Sure 320 is "normal" but it's fucking low as hell. It's normal for a 70 year old diabetic lol. Some people feel great at 320, others feel like a train wreck. Dbols chemical name is methandrostenolone. By taking dbol hours body senses the exogenous homonss and shuts down your testosterone production and what's left? Methandrostenolone, which is not testosterone. In turn leaving you feeling even worse then before. And then when you come off you go through a period of literally zero hormones in your body and feel 10 times worse then you do now. Pretty decent chance that 320-400 becomes 250-300, or worse.
So bottom line is you need to keep looking for doctors. Right now I have a doctor who actually cares about me and it pains her to see me suffering and she will do whatever it takes to help me. Took a long time to find her but I did. Keep searching my friend you'll find someone willing to help. On another note they have these online low T clinics for 199 a month. Send me a friend request and a Message and I'll dig up the link for you.
@irongame, dude, thanks for the share as well. I will indeed friend request you and PM you to get any and all info you are willing to share. And thanks!
no.
Dbol will just make things more complicated and shut down your HPTA for good then you'll really feel bad. You'll eventually have erection problems and then your marriage will be worse off then were you started.
Anti aging clinics will prescribe you test and it's legal.
While your here check out the trt lounge forum as well. https://www.eroids.com/forum/general/over-40-trt
And you can't take dbol like that 8 weeks on 3 off.
Its liver. Toxic
Go see a doctor and get it. Legally and. Follow the rules
@Sumatra, it may be a much longer slog through the medical system ahead of me, but it's looking more and more like that is the best option indeed.
Taking dbol is. Not trt.
It. Will lower your. Natural test levels, and ten mg is not enough for a. Performance boost
You need to see an endocrinology doctor and figure it out there.
Dbol is far from the solution
@Sumatra, thank you for your input too. I've been leary of pinning myself, just because I simply want to "feel better & get the f**k on with it," but the more I read, there's a lot of negative advice about d-bol only "cycles." Rightly so. D-bol seems to be awesome for putting on serious strength, but since that's not my goal, it's looking more and more like it might not be the right fit!
opticxBack in the day dbol came in 5mg tablets, he could theoretically see performance gains off of 10mg but it would just most likely be physiological positive effects working somewhat like a anti depressant. At 10mg the liver toxicity would be very very mild as well.