+ 93 TEST IS NOT TEST!! (prop vs E vs C etc ) Broscience debunked
Yup you read it right, all the broscience thats pushed around steroid forums about test being test and ester only effects the half-life of the drug is bullshit. And dont worry i have my citations to back up these bold but true claims. Ive been getting alot of PMs to get more info on the subject as I been dropping hints around the forums on my new thoughts and findings so i figured its best to make a post so everyone can read this. So were gonna talk about esters. This is something ive been researching about for the last 2 months or so after using different esters of drugs and noticing different effects both positive and negative. The common belief among the huge majorly of us is that “Testosterone is Testosterone”, the ester just effects the half life. Well after much research ive found that this is just not the case. Different esters will greatly influence many different aspects of the drugs actions including
1) Conversion to estrogen
2) Nitrogen retention/anabolic nature
3) Peak plasma levels of the drug
4) How suppressive the drug is
5) And a few other things
How esters work
Im sure most of you understand what an ester is but heres a little bit more indepth explination. Steroids are 4 ring structures with 19 carbon atoms. Heres a picture of what the molecule looks like http://img.springerimages.com/Images/SpringerBooks/BSE=0164/BOK=978-3-54...
So as we all know test no ester is in and out of the system very quickly, so scientists decided to add a side chain or “ester” to extended the active life of the steroid so injection frequencies could be cut down. So if you look at the picture above you will see how the molecule is numbered. Notice the OH or hydroxyl group at the 17th position? Thats necessary for the steroid to bind to the androgen receptor, so this is where they add the ester. So with this side chain blocking the 17th beta position the steroid is temporally inactive. But as soon as it gets into the blood stream, esterase enzymes come and hydrolyze the ester, or in other words remove the ester which restores the hydroxyl group making the steroid active. And lastly, the longer the ester the less water soluble it is and more fat soluble. Something that is more fat soluble is going to take longer be released from the deposit or “depot” the injection creates.
Long esters are more anabolic and will cause more muscle gain
So now that you know how esters work we can talk about their actions and how “test is not test”
First will talk about how longer esters are more anabolic and will cause more muscle gain then shorter esters. In 1954 a scientist named Reifstein and his team did a study comparing Testosterone Enathate with Testosterone Propionate. The results of these studys were that Test e resulted in total nitrogen retention of 1.76g/day vs prop only 1.02g/day. And obviously they found the duration of anabolic activity was 33 days with test e and 12 days with prop.(1) These were with the same doses 200mgs of each. So overall the longer ester retains more nitrogen (muscle gain) per day then shorts and remains active in the body for much longer. So its doesn’t take a rocket scientist to know that if something causes higher levels of nitrogen retention, and hangs around in your body longer its going to be more anabolic. And real life experience tells us the same. Think of a prop kicker, of 150mgs eod, or just a prop cycle. Ive done 6 week kickers while waiting for 500mgs ew of test e to kick in and the results of the prop are not even close to the same as the long esters, despite the same dosage AND 150mgs of prop eod (525mgs ew) actually contains more pure test then 500mgs of test e.
plasma levels and suppression and Estrogen
Scientists did a study on 3 different testosterone esters, short, medium and long esters. And what they found was the short esters caused the greatest peak plasma levels of testosterone, next highest was the medium and lowest peak was the last. But they found that the long esters caused the greatest suppression on the gonadal axis and metabolic functions.(2) They even upped the short ester dose by 2-3 times and were still not able to replicate the suppression and metabolic effects of the long esters. And this greater suppression is also due to the fact that longer esters convert more readily to estrogen, which is what I’m going to get to next.
Im sure alot of you have noticed bloat is greater with long esters. Despite the fact the same people say test is test we dont typically use shorts for bulks and longs for cuts. We use shorts for cuts and contest preps because they dont convert to estrogen to the same degree as longs do, in turn causing less water retention. So going back to the study (2) estradiol levels were much higher with the group using long esters despite identical doses of the drug. So in short, long esters cause a higher rise in estrogen. The study with the 3 different testosterone esters was done over a 28 week period. The shortest esters allowed for the quickest return of natural levels of hormones. Sperm count also remained the highest with the short esters. So concluding that short esters are less suppressive then long esters. Part of the reason why long esters are so much more suppressive is due to the rise in estrogen they cause. Im not gonna explain the negative feedback system of the hpta here in depth but basically the STOP mechanism of the hpta telling it not the produce anymore testosterone is estrogen. it binds in the hypothalamus which tells it not to produce anymore testosterone as the estrogen levels reflect adaquate levels of testosterone.
Estrogen and IGF-1 and GH
So I’m sure many of you know that using testosterone increases GH and igf-1 levels to a degree. But did you know that the increase in these hormones are due on estrogen aromatization? (3)(4) So now going back we know that long esters cause greater increases in estrogen, and estrogen increase GH and igf-1. So using long esters will result in greater muscle gain due to the factors I presented earlier and also the increase in gh and igf-1 levels caused by the greater levels of estrogen long esters cause.
So what about steroids other then Testosterone?
So now ive talked about how esters effect the effects of testosterone, is it the same for all steroids with esters? Well ive found some medical studies done on the different nandrolone esters. These studies had the exact same findings as the testosterone esters. NPP had greater peak plasma levels, suppression was greater with the long estered nandrolone (deca), and the anabolic effect was greater with the long ester (deca). And most of us who have ran both Deca and NPP can say NPP causes less water retention. And the people ive talked to still say Deca is superior for muscle gain. Its been many years since ive used deca so i cant say myself. Ive been using npp the last few cycles but next winter ill be using deca so ill be able to give an accurate comparison.
Summary
Longer esters cause higher levels of estrogen
Longer esters cause more water retention
Longer esters cause more suppression of the HPTA
Longer esters cause higher levels of nitrogen retention (muscle gain)in other words are more anabolic
Shorter esters cause higher peak plasma levels
So I still need to do some more research on how this applies to other esterfied steroids. But from the short amount of reading I did do it seems this applys to steroids that can aromatize, and can convert to DHT. So the only ones that dont apply to this is trenbolone as it doesn’t convert to DHT or estrogen, an masteron as its already a DHT. But further research is needed.
So in short, with diet in check and your goal is to gain the most amount of pure muscle, use long esters for bulking. Although I am intrigued about possibly mixing nandrolone esters next bulk. Yes the deconate will results in more nitrogen retention and muscle, but the npp reaches greater peak plasma levels, so there could be some benefit of using them together, some type of synergy. Much like how guys who like sust swear its the best form of test. And thats my next bulking cycle, sust and deca (possibly with npp also). Gonnna see the benefits of mixing esters.
- Reifenstein, et. al. Studies comparing the effects of certain testosterone esters in man.J Am Geriatr Soc. 1954 May;2(5):293-8.. PMID: 13162731
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Journal of Andrology, Vol. 24, No. 5, September/October 2003 Copyright © American Society of Andrology Pharmacokinetics and Degree of Aromatization Rather Than Total Dose of Different Preparations Determine the Effects of Testosterone: A Nonhuman Primate Study in Macaca fascicularisGERHARD F. WEINBAUER*, CARL-JOACHIM PARTSCH, MICHAEL ZITZMANN, STEFAN SCHLATT AND EBERHARD NIESCHLAG
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[Veldhuis JD, Metzger DL, Martha Jr PM, Mauras N, Kerrigan JR, Keenan B, Rogol AD, Pincus SM 1997 Estrogen and testosterone, but not a nonaromatizable androgen, direct network integration of the hypothalamo-somatotrope (growth hormone)-insulin-like growth factor I axis in the human: evidence from pubertal pathophysiology and sex-steroid hormone replacement. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 82:3414–3420
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Keenan BS, Richards GE, Ponder SW, Dallas JS, Nagamani M, Smith ER 1993 Androgen-stimulated pubertal growth: the effects of testosterone and dihydrotestosterone on growth hormone and insulin-like growth factor-I in the treatment of short stature and delayed puberty. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 76:996–1001
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Pharmacokinetics and Pharmacodynamics of Nandrolone Esters in Oil Vehicle: Effects of Ester, Injection Site and Injection VolumeCharles F. Minto, Christopher Howe, Susan Wishart, Ann J. Conway, and David J. HandelsmanJ. Pharmacol. Exp. Ther., Apr 1997; 281: 93.
- Belkien, L., Schurmeyer, T., Hano, R., Gunnarson, P. O. and Nieschlag, E.: Pharmacokinetics of 19-nortestosterone esters in normal men. J. Steroid Biochem. 5: 623-629, 1985
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Steveb+1
Thank you for your research Iron. This completely makes sense. The shorter esters have a higher concentration of test and release at a faster rate than longer esters so it makes sense that they have a higher peak level and the longer esters release over a longer and slower time allowing estro conversion to take it's sweet time increasing water retention and anabolic gains. Great job!
This coincides with my paper on multi-estered compounds working together.
Good read bro. I've sorta "felt" that it might have worked that way, but the "Test is Test" argument made since and is so prevalent I just thought it was probably just me or all "in my head".
Good job bro+
Thankyou for this... i am well impressed bro.
35yrs of preaching that SUSTANON is the grail when it comes to test!!........... you just made my day :))))))
I dont know how much karma this fkn tag gives but you got what it gives.
Thanks brotha. You were right. I remember you trying to tell me sust was the way to go and me saying noo it's unstable why sould I use it when I can use test e or c. Well science backs it's benefits as most likely the most superior muscle gainer. By how much I don't know but needless to say my bulker next winter will be eod shots of sust. Can't wait for that one
Listen!........ if you really want to debunk broscience and try something really radical, try Sustanon ED.............. dont laugh bro you know i dont talk out my ass.
No need to stack anything with it.......... try it! and let your mind be blown!
Ive tried things not of this galaxy.... if it didnt hold credence i would never let it out from the deep recesses of my mind and share with anyone.
StevebAfter reading this I ordered 150 ampoules of pharma Sustanon.
I have 75 of them on the way also.
ive found ed inj for almost every drug gives me the best gains/days/lifts/overall well being, I have always believed that it keeps your blood as stable as possible witch in turn gives me the best results. I thought about trying some am and pm inj to see if that gives even better results but havnt gone that route yet.
great post bro!
Thanks
Ed pins huh? So many cycle options so little time lol. My next run I was gonna do eod sust shots like you used to talk about with 500mg of deca or something but maybe I'll just do a sust only cycle with daily shots. The more I do this the more I find that for bulking (Besides food) test is best. Like I honestly thing I would get better results with 1500mg of test ew then 1000mg test and 500mg deca. And I feel best on test cycles. So will see I still got like 20 more weeks of comp prep before I either take a nice long cruise or take advantage of that rebound growth after a long long deficit. Maybe a short 6 week rebound cycle with shorts to take advantage of that rebound growth and then a nice long cruise followed by a winter bulker to add some serious quality.
AnonRebound growth?
What viking is sayong about ed inj of sust is backed up by science. On basskillers site he has a graph plotting out sust and you can see the differences in ed inj vs eod vs 2x a week. Ed inj is the way to go imo.
+3 from me bro............ nice to see an intelligent guy on the board
Damn right!.. that Vike knows his shit dont you know hahahahaaaaa.. hes a good looking mofo too
StevebDid you use pharma Sust? 1 amp a day would be 1,750mg a week.
Actually what Vike is saying makes sense. You do not have to draw 250 a day. You could draw just 100 if you wanted. I put together a stack for a friend using deca every three days but lowered his dose to maximize his gains and benefits and never even increased his weekly schedule. I have been meaning to post it for some time but havent had the time to do a proper write up.
Forget the Mg counting brother..... we have prop +phenyl in a decent Sustanon blend, weekly Mg counting goes to wall when we have shorts in the running.
In a highly advanced stack short esters that are being used up by the hour (literally) are not even counted in bro.
Mg counting is a valuable tool we use for creating simple /intermediate type stacks when a user is learning the ropes and a degree of knowledge must be inbuilt.
Hella lot more goes on in the seriously advanced world bro when it comes to stack science than anything EVER written on these boards.
That's huge! Beyond my experience at this point in time. Almost 2 grams a week. Definitely not for the faint of heart! No pussies for this cycle!
I've been running sust ed since early Jan.
They are gonna be calling us fkn Mad Hatters again bro if we keep giving all the secrets out lol....... it seems like i let something out the bag and called a fkn lunatic and what-not...... then 6mths later the ones that called me a fkn lunatic are singing my praises because they actually touched on some magic instead of trodging through mud running bullshit cycles.
Motherfuckers dont live a Bodybuilders lifestyle for 35+ years and have an empty fkn toolbox...... especially when i have a crew of big nasty bastards just wanting to get bigger!.... i HAVE to produce the goods or i would get nailed to a nasty gym wall hahahaha.
Excellent and well written post.
It goes a long way to explain a thing I've read again and again, where seasoned users swear by one type of test over another, mostly that they prefer sust to cyp or visa versa, claiming to get "way better gains" over the duration of a 10-12 week cycle using one or the other.
I always thought it was interesting given that this was usually a widely accepted standpoint whilst simultaneously everyone was always saying test is test, the same throughout all bar the uptake time differences.
So that would make test e a better choice for muscle gain but not as much suppression as much as test c and more gains the test prop, thanks for the article it's definitely saved.
Na bro the difference in ester length is 1 carbon atom. So you won't even notice a difference. But yes prop will be easier to recover from but there will be no noticable diff between test e or c
AnonHmmm. So if its not test, what is it then? Do they use some other kind of raw to cook it? Or is the parent hormone still test with different esters? Because im preety sure regardless of the esters, half lives and the points you stated above, at the end of the day its all still test, just different side effects in the body due to the esters and the way our bodues regulate and uptake the hormone over a certain time period. If this was the case what would you write in relation to tren a, tren e, tren hex? Tren is not tren because of different sides, esters and peaks? I mean I know what your saying, its a good article but yeah test is test is test.
For the most part test is test. High level competitors are the ones that notice the slightest impacts of esters on their body. The limited esters they have for steroids are shitty, pharma companies stop caring and made more money on painkillers esters just look at the ones for corticosteroids.
Flourine activity on esters
http://www.phys.org/news/2012-10-introduction-fluorine-atoms-molecules-a...
Really great info! Thanks for taking the time to compile and post this. +1
i was just brainstorming about his earlier and thought it would be interesting to run a lonnng ester, such as decanoate or undecanoate combined with Test no ester. as long as the TNE is made thinly enough one could site inject ED with slin pins and inject the dec or undec 1-2x/week. that would get you the two extremes in one cycle.
So based off this knowledge, one is to presume the test decanoate I have would be even better?
In theory yes, longer ester should result in more nitrogen retention. Better off just using sust since it has it dec in it plus the shorts you benefit from.
But would combing short and long esters really give you a higher peak plasma vs just running more long ester?
I believe so and not just because of theory of my opinion. I've seen plenty of bloodwork on 750mg of sust and it's alwuas higher then on 750mg ew of test e or c
As a longer ester, so as results of all the point you have added in the final summary, test e allows longer time periods between the injections, which makes him the nicest test for beginners and/or for people that is scared for the injections.
This is a fantastic article, ironmage. I wish I could thumb you up!
Precisely, with test e you only need to inject twice a week. With short esters it can be as much as daily or every other daily injects.
FoxTailThank your for posting this bro, I have quite the interest in the chemical aspect of androgen use and this is definitely going in my bookmarks.
Same here bro the pharmacology of the drugs is fascinating to me. I'm always trying to learn more.
x2 i can read for hours on pharmacology. how different compounds act in the body and react with other compounds and combining certain ones to yield certain outcomes fascinates me. if i ever compete in the upper levels of bodybuilding i dont want to work with a "guru" i want to BE the guru
Anonuse sust and get best of all worlds?
amen!
My thoughts exactly
Thanks brother, just trying to help spread knowledge.
Glad you posted this, nice read.
This link goes in more detail about different esters and how reactions affect it. So its 100% fact test is not test.
http://www.ergogenics.org/anabolenboek/index16en.html
"In patents and in the scientific literature many esters are mentioned, which for some reason never have reached the market. Their anabolic activity has been established but not exploited"
With your addition tho this, this shit just got alot more complicated lol. There is just so much out there to learn about these hormones and shit. I love it. Great addition bro.
Its hard to understand but it talks about a hex ester is broken down from one side instead of both sides, which im assuming makes the chemical reaction more unique in a way. It makes the drug less polar. Polarity is the reason why heroine is more potent via cell membranes than morphine because hero is less polar. So if your getting real hex, it definitely worth the extra $.
"Esterases may hydrolyse carbonates on both sides. In trenbolone cyclohexylmethyl carbonate this probably will happen at the least hindered cyclohexylmethyl side. After spontanuous decomposition of the remaining half ester, trenbolone will be set free."
"The right combination is determined by conditions like fat solubility, water solubility, transportation and vulnerability for metabolic transformations."
I think there's a fine line between science and what we REALLY need to know from a muscle building perspective. To the majority, the reality is almost "test is test" in most respects. It's only at the higher level IMO that you need to look a bit deeper.
Also remember you're talking about data even older than you in some cases! A lot of things have happened in endocrinology since 1985. When I finished my Phd I worked with one of the best published endos in Europe. I remember him saying, which would have been even later than these at around 2001/2002, "endocrinology is based on a blunderbuss technique. Start off with a guess and adjust from there".....
Good info though Iron. The geek in me enjoyed it ;)
I agree with ya, but i have always noticed i dont need an ai when using prop, and i dont retain water unlike long esters. But ya for the average joe in short test is test, and I'm basically an average joe, but i still like to know these things. Reseaching and learning is what i do for fun.
But i will say this, I agree the studies are old, some of them 5 years older then me lol. But they are still accurate because of the type of information i presented. I dont think the amount of nitrogen retention test e causes or estrogen conversion has changed since the study came out. Thats why i tried to present facts that would remain consistent over the test of time.
But after learning about all this i have a real interest in using sust. Getting all the benefits from the different esters. Thats my next experiment.
Probably before your time here but I've talked to quite a few guys about using Sust in bulkers, combining esters etc, Vike and I used to do it a long time ago and still do.
When you want to look at it, drop me a line and we'll build something.
Ya i always remember seeing yours and vikes cycles with test e c and sust and wondering the reasoning behind it. Thanks when it comes time to put something together I'll shoot you a pm
+1
Great read. Thanks.