posted Thu, 10/09/2014 - 15:34
5089
+ 3 ***3rd Update***30 y/o Total Testosterone - 156
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Saw my pcp the other day and I asked him if he would check my test level since I was already getting general labs. Well the results are in and my total testosterone level is 156 for a 30 y/o. That explains a lot! The decrease in energy, memory, focus, self confidence, decisiveness, sleep, etc... I haven't spoke to the Dr. since the results came back, so I don't know what route he will want to take. As stated earlier he is my pcp, IDK how much TRT treatment he does. I'm wondering if I should just go to a Low T clininc or see what he tries to do.... I will update regularly. I'm always up for any advice as well. Thanks
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Baldur2630Doctors may be well meaning, but they have all been to Med School and been brainwashed by the Hierarchy of the Medical Profession and all these guys have massive shares in the pharmaceutical conglomerates.
If everyone was healthy, there would be a massive surplus of doctors to swell the ranks by several hundred every year whilst, thanks to them, the birth rates among the indigenous in Europe an the USA drops every year.
It isn't in the interest of the medical profession to make you healthy pal. They treat the SYMPTOMS and rarely the cause. There is so much utter bullshit published by the Med profession about steroids, it's unlikely that the average doctor will have a clue. Whatever the prescribe is probably 4 times the price of the same thing sold to vets for animals (and the stuff for animals is usually more pure). Then the pills and meds they give you have horrific side effects, and that needs more pills to treat them.
I've been there and done that. Diagnosed with almost zero free T and endo refused to prescribe testosterone for me because I'm too old and it's a banned steroid.
My training partner has some leg and shoulder pain from a car accident years ago. His doctor told him that he should take Deca Durabolin 50 mg every fortnight (waste of time and money). Medical Aid wouldn't pay and it cost around 30 euros per shot. No mention of the fact that the Deca will stop T production. Fucking morons.
He got Deca from a very reliable source (200 mg/ml 10 ml for 45 Euros) (They are on the Sources list here, I buy from them also) he takes 100 mg per week and 150 mg test cyp. I also suggested he gets some Arimidex in the cupboard in case he gets itchy nipples etc. so no thanks at all to the med profession, in 4 months, his bench press has gone from 90 to 145 kgs and he has zero pain and a good sex life.
Your doctor is probably just as big a twat as his. RESEARCH, RESEARCH AND RESEARCH. The only way you'll get proper treatment is by reading and asking questions on forums such as this and do it yourself. Make sure you get the idiot doc to do a COMPLETE blood test every 6 months. Normally you will get a 'standard' test, which is a waste of time. It's your FREE Testosterone and estradiol that counts not the total. I had a total of 484 and free almost zero.
Very informative and well written post with many valid points. I thought I had a good doctor until the day I asked him about hCG and his reply was "why would a pregnant female hormones help you out at all?" LOL!!! However one good thing that he does is order a complete blood test every three months. I agree with you that UGL AI is my only option at this point. What would you recommend as good starting dose of adex? My research has revealed multiple different dosages and intervals...
Baldur2630It seems to vary. Initial advice (from a forum, I hasten to add, not a doctor), was 0.25 mg (I cut the 1 mg pills into 4 pieces), every other day, this was on 100 mg test cyp per week spread over 2 injections. It was just far too much. I dropped it to none, but the libido was still fucked and I didn't feel any better. I went up to 200 mg test cyp weekly and then I played sound with the Ariimex, based on my libido. I sort of settled on 0.25 mg after each injection and I've spread mine over 3 days per week (seems to work best for the gym). I get blood every 6 months now. Last one my SHBG was still high and estradiol a bit low.
Next blood is end of this month. Remember I also take HGH (cheap generic but it isn't fake!) 1 IU daily, six days per week. The difference it made to my sex life, stamina, strength, well-being, nails, hair and injuries has been amazing over the 7 months I've been taking it. At $2.00 per day, the difference it's made in our lives is miraculous. I used to spend that on drinks!
Bottom line is to take as little Adex as possible, watch for loss of libido (but that works both with too much and too little as well!) and itchy nipples.
Lift heavy and fuck 'till you drop!
Growing old gracefully is NOT an option!
Latest update:
After the Dr. moved me to 200mg if test cyp/month, my total test increased to 579. My labs were drawn seven days from last injection. Also my estradiol wet from the low twenties to 34.(something). I have noticed some increased body acne, however my Dr. doesn't think the estradiol levels are high enough/the side effects aren't significant enough to put me on anastrozole just yet.
Hit a reputable UGL and get some AI for yourself. Most docs are clueless when it comes to AI. The NUMBER is not nearly as important as how you FEEL. I feel best when my E2 is in the lower 20s on the standard test, others feel better in the upper 30s. It is very person specific.
TronGood post +1
****Latest update****So I had my labs drawn after two months with my new doctor. He switched me from 100mg of test c every week(which had my test level at 658) to 200mg test c every two weeks. Two months later my
total testosterone is now 230. His new plan is for me to inject 200mg of test c every 10 days, then we will check my labs after two months. I suppose this trial and error continues. Even before I got my last results I knew they would be lower, I just felt worse. It seems bizarre that 100mg every week is better than 200 every other week seeing as test c has a half life of 8 days. If 200mg every 10 days doesn't work I don't know how much higher we can go. How high and frequent of a TRT dose have any if y'all seen? Any thoughts?
It is not strange at all - you are on a hormonal roller coaster when you inject further and further apart. Most people on TRT inject twice a week to balance it out.
Think about it, the half life of test-cyp is about a week. At the start of week 1, you have 200mg. At the start of week 2 / end of week 1, you have 100mg. By the end of week 2 you only have 50mg remaining. Your E2 will also be higher due to the continuously changing Test level. I would start injecting 50mg every 3.5 days and see what that does for you.
I personally use 75mg every 3.5 days My doctor told me I could inject as frequently as I wanted provided I did the math properly to split the dose.
Why dont you just inject the 100mg a week that had your levels more stable? Would you like every member here to state the obvious answer for you? You stated that your doc is having you do your own injections, correct? Why would you even consider going higher? Do you think 300mgs every 2 weeks will solve your problems? Or would that put you on more of a rollercoaster effect? You answered your own question and if you search around the trt lounge (that you posted your question in) you will see 100's of members that answered it over and over again. Good luck
Went to the new PCP, and his plan is 200mg every other week for two months then labs. He said we will see where I'm at then, but we will most likely increase the dose or frequency. He said he wants me in the upper 800's+ and feeling better. I think I finally found a good one, and it only took 4 months!!! lol
ya the whole insurance thing is a pain. my test was below 100 as I found out on my own through private md labs via labcorp...cost you $50 and there are coupons out there to help...then you know whats working without having to go through insurance everytime. I have a script but save all of my Watson cyp for cycling and the UGL for my TRT...doesnt really matter honestly but it just my thing....lol. Do some more research ask questions ect while your waiting....for instance I dont run an AI while on TRT or mild cycle, you can run Proviron or Mast to help your free test levels and keep estro down...again everyone is different so labs are important to figure all of that out...if you do it right the first time your way ahead. Tons of info on this site and actually, theres a lot more knowledgeable people here than most sites.
Sorry I posted the same question twice
Do you notice any difference between Watson Test and UGL test?
yes, for sure, I get bloods when I start a new batch # somwtimes the UGL is pretty low and I up the dose but its pretty consistant..I get the same stuff everytime. Watson cyp is good stuff and I dont use it anymore but save it all for my blast. I know what the numbers are so I can run less gear and get good results
That's funny that you bring up Mast. I'm VERY interested in running some Mast, but as you have stated I still have a huge amount of research to do. Not to mention the fact that I need to find a good TRT doc and regimen first. My biggest priority right now is to SAFELY get myself feeling better. If I were to start arbitrarily injecting myself with UGL Mast or any other hormones right now that would be completely counterproductive. It's very easy as noob to this forum and to TRT itself to login, read about these amazing results some if our members have had, and think "Well, If I was running 1g of test, some Mast, Tren, HGH, Igf, HCG, etc, then Id instantly gain 20lbs of solid muscle w/o any changes to diet and/or exercise." I can only imagine the damage some people do to theselves. Two of the biggest things I've learned so far from this website are:
1. Gear is simply a "tool" so to speak. Go buy all the tools in the world, sit them right next to building materials and see if they get up and build you a house while you're sitting on a couch eating junk all day.
Thanks for all the positive comments brother.
Edited to fix a typo @1402.
It sounds like your having a hard time, it shouldnt be that hard. I went to 3 different endos before I got one that I liked..its your $$$ go to as many as you feel necessary to get you the results your after. Like Greg stated, most decent endos want you in the 700-900 range... TRT clinics are $$$$$ . Your estro and elevated T levels look good for 100mg /week. Prolactin levels are elevated due to your what was low T and will probably subside and you will feel better
Thanks, I wa trying to find a good Dr., Get labs done, and get a script filled for test, HCG, and AI's before the the end of the year due to the fact that my deductible has already been met. However, I have decided that finding the right doctor and TRT plan is most certainly worth paying for therefore there's no rush(except the rush to feel better). Thanks for the input bro. FR inbound.
****Quick update****Well, the results came back. My prolactin was elevated, and my testosterone is 598ng/dL. That's after taking 100mg of test cyp every 5days for almost two months. I have to say I don't feel that much better at all......
My estradiol was 37.
So did you get a script?
If you're taking cyp I wouldn't be surprised to see your levels get higher in the coming weeks.
No I did not. Due to their policy the only feasible options for me was creams, patches, or pellets. I have no interest in using creams or patches at all and I have not done enough research about pellets. I think that the reason they will not prescribe injectable testosterone is because they know that most people do not want to use creams or patches so by default most of their patients will either pay for two office visits a week or pay for the pellets which cost about $2000!!!!
allaboutthat$$$ #donoharm???
So I finally broke down and decided to get a second opinion. I went to a low T clinic in a really nice area of the city, The research I've done on this clinic made it seem like it was similar to the Low T clinics you see advertisements for..... big leather recliners in the waiting room SportsCenter on all the TVs, and sports memorabilia all over the walls in the rooms. I explained everything to the nurse practitioner just as I explained it to you guys on the board. She agrees that my levels are abnormally low, she agrees that 100 mg a month is not probably not a big enough dose, and it's certainly not enough. She agrees that I did the right thing by following the doctor's orders, she agrees that I need to be on testosterone, and she also agrees that injections are the best route for me. However the issue is she says it's against their policy to prescribe testosterone to patients in the injectable form and therefore the only way for me to receive my injections is to come into her office once or twice a week, pay for the office visit, and have the nurse administer the injection. I explained to her that I have been administering my injections for the last couple of months. I also explained to her that I am a paramedic and I'm trainee to give injections and I am perfectly capable of injecting myself. She agrees with all the above, but states she doesn't prescribe injectable testosterone because she believes some of her patients would end up selling or giving their testosterone away. I explained to her that I have no interest whatsoever in diverting my testosterone and all I want is to feel better. I even asked her if she thought I was going to sell or give away my testosterone to which she replied "no not at all." After telling her that I cannot afford to pay for two office visits a week nor am I a willing to drive 60 miles one way to the clinic twice a week she recommended the testosterone pellets. At first this idea seemed alright but then I thought about it. The problem I have with pellets is how does she know how many pellets to place in my skin? Who's to say that my levels will be where they need to be? No matter where my testosterone levels go if I have the pellets that's a 3 to 6 month roller coaster that I can't get off m you're basically stuck there right?
My biggest frustration is the fact that she will not treat me the way that she feels I need to be treated because she believes some of her patients lie and sell their medications. If every doctor in the country treated their patients based on her logic no one would ever be prescribed any controlled substances. Also I find it strange that while she will not prescribe injectable testosterone, butshe has no problem writing a prescription for 3 to 6 months worth of testosterone creams or patches. I don't see how people would not be able to sell patches or creams??? This whole process has been nothing but frustrating since day one, the only reliable and consistent information I'm getting is from Greg and other members of this forum. Anyways the nurse practitioner did draw blood and I should get the results back today I'll post them as soon as I get them. Any ideas where to go from here?? Does anyone know of a directory that might have reliable low T clinic's geographically listed? Mods if this question is out of line I apologize amd will delete it. I'm not necessarily looking for a source just looking to be pointed in the right direction. Arere the Low T clinics in general nothing but scams or are there ones out there that are reliable? Thanks for the help!
I had my follow up the other day and my PCP basically said the following:
My level is to low.(no shit)
•HIS goal is for me to be over 292 NG/DL.(Even though I'm 30 y/o)
•He doesn't believe an 18 y/o should have higher test levels than an 80 y/o male, "anything over 292 NG/DL is normal no matter the age" he said.
•His plan is for me to take 100mg of test c per week for four weeks, then take 100mg/month for six months. Then come in for labs six months from now.
So my initial thoughts were "why does he think it's acceptable for a 30 y/o to have a level of 292 just because the lab reference says that's normal. Shouldn't he be more concerned about raising my levels to alleviate my symptoms and help improve my quality of life? Also that seems like a really low dose, maybe I should find another Dr. no one else I know takes 100mg once a month." However, I also understand everyone is different and who's to say that if I go back to see him in six months without much improvement that he will adjust the dose accordingly. Maybe 100mg/month is all I need. Maybe I should calm down and trust him. I plan on following his orders and seeing where that gets me, then I'll go from there. Feel free to chime in and criticize/advise me, I'm always willing to learn from others whom have been down this road before.
Ask him what the half life is of the drug and then have him explain to you how a once a month dose is going to keep your levels where he wants them.
Ask him to refer you to a specialist. You want a second opinion.
All hospitals and medical centers are business operations. Low T clinics are up there with plastic surgeons.
Get a healthcare practitioner that will work with you.
Ask your doc to refer you to a endo specialist for a second opinion.
My doc wants to see my low levels at 800; and I'm 55 ...Tell your doc that.
My buddy has a PCP that has him at 200mg/week with the goal of having him >700 AND asymptomatic. I'm going to switch PCPs within the next 2-4 weeks. Now the question is how should I use this vial of test c(100mg/ml)between now and then? I'm thinking I'll just follow my current PCP's orders and explain it to my new doctor and go from there.....Thanx again Greg for all your help bro!!!
Be patient and stick to the PCP prescribed plan. Once you're settled into the correct prescribed dose you can start to play with the idea of running a cycle.
In the mean time, you're still learning and still have the benefit of higher test levels.
Absolutely, that's what I'm currently doing. However, my doctor says If I still have these symptoms and my levels 300+ he is not going to increase the frequency of my injections nor will he increase the dose. Therefore if I still feel bad when I go back for my follow up I go back to my doctor for my follow-up. Then I'll be scheduling an appointment with my buddy's doctor And use him as my PCP, because his goal is to have your symptoms resolved. As opposed to my current doctor having the goal simply raising my test over 300 no matter how bad my symptoms are. So basically if the current plan doesn't help me and my doctor doesn't adjust accordingly then I'm going to find another doctor. But I do agree with you that I should definitely follow his advice, because who knows it may be sufficient. BTW, How long does it normally take after your first injection before you start to feel better? 2-3 weeks? A month?
4 to six weeks
I felt "better" when my low levels tested at 400. but it was best at the beginning of the week; there was a kind of yo-yo feeling of great, not so great, great, not so great
My doc upped the dose to where my low levels were 800 and I feel consistently great. To get to that point, took about 8 weeks.
I agree, any primary care physician should be able to treat this with your insurance.
My reaction after the results came back would be to immediately call the doctor to see what route he will want to take. Not sure why you're waiting.
So I'm confused -more like skeptical -why you would toss your insurance supplemented PCP for a costly, private TRT clinic.
I'm with rusty on this one.
I'm calling shenanigans
Greg, I've only talked to the person in the lab, I will call my Dr. Monday, however I don't know how much he will reveal about his treatment plan over the phone. The reason I brought up the idea of low T clinincs is because a few guys at my department told me they've gone to low T clinincs for treatment and were satisfied(plus they said these clinics take our insurance). Also as far as my insurance goes, I have a very high deductible that I must meet before my insurance pays anything. I've asked people I work with, now I'm asking the forum. I'm not sure what you think I'm lying about or why you think I would lie. I'll post a copy of my results when I get a paper copy if you want. I'm just looking for advice.
As your post is written it sounds like you're not following up with your doctor and opting to go straight to a TRT clinic. It's counter intuitive.
Your doctor has already done your blood work and is less apt to upsell you something you don't need. He's your quickest route to treatment.
Your doctor will probably tell you over the phone that he'd want to start you off with 200mg Test-C per week, get bloods after 6 weeks and adjust accordingly.
If he says he wants to prescribe a topical application you can tell him you are not comfortable with that because you're worried about transferring the test to your wife and kids, inconsistent dosage, daily application, etc.
Tell him you have no problem with injections and would like him or a nurse to show you and your wife how to do them.
Greg, that right there is exactly the info I'm looking for brother! I apologize for the way I worded my original post. I should have simply asked "should I trust my PCP or are TRT clinics better?" What you're saying makes perfect sense, he is my PCP, he has already done the lab work, etc.... I am a firefighter/paramedic therefore IM injections would not be a problem for me, and you also hit the nail on the head about being concerned transferring topical test to my family. Honestly I have been feeling so bad for so long, I just want to feel better and feel better fast. I should have had me test checked a couple years ago. Thanks for the advice brother, I'll try to FR you and send karma your way if I have those privileges, and can figure out how to do that lol!
Like rusty said go to an endo
RustyhookerDon't mess around with sjetchy clinics. If you're actuay tellung the truth, any Dr worth his MD woulda immediately sent you to an endocrinologists. Use your insurance and those legal means.
And find a new Dr. If he didn't know either he's a quack or you're not telling the truth. I believe the latter.
"And find a new Dr. If he didn't know either he's a quack or you're not telling the truth. I believe the latter."
What do you mean by "If he didn't know either"? If he didn't know what?