Does how long you stay on cycle determine how much of your gains you keep??
Ive been pondering this lately. I know everyone loves to stay on cycle and of course I am the same. Its an addicting feeling and I fucking love the way I look and attention I get. But lately Ive been getting into the habit of extending cycles much longer than first intended and even adding in other compounds. Hell Im almost running cycles back to back. My 12 weeker turned into 20 weeks. It all comes down to me just not being completely happy with where I am supposed to end at, so I dont end it.
Does this fuck up what gains I can keep in the end? Does my body adjust to having high doses of test and other compounds for such a long peroid of time that it considers this, while on cycle, my normal state? I know food is going to dictate what gains I keep the most and my training. A lot of guys say take it easy and drop cals when you come off. That doesnt work for me. I find that I only keep gains if I keep training like I am on cycle and listen to my body. But am I ultimately fucking myself over by staying on so long? I do get bloods taken while on and off cycle so yes I understand the health risks involved and do not take it lightly. Thanks for any input
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RustyhookerThe OP syates that his cycles are nearly back to back with no real downtime.
Did i misread his question?
UFOYea you must have misread it. This is not about me staying on cycles with 0 downtime in between. In my post I stated that its ALMOST like im running cycles back to back...I did not say that I am just running all my cycles back to back without PCT or downtime. I am extending cycles that were intended to be shorter by several months and sometimes incorporating other compounds into the mix. I still PCT, take down time and get bloods done by doctor.
RustyhookerOhhh...my bad. Well, theres a ton of great info Tread dropped. Get swole!
tread-mLet's do this again....
The body creates muscle through protein synthesis. So the more often we have protein the better chance for that to occur and the better chance we have of keeping what did occur.
So you think, well then why can't I just eat every 2 hrs and gain the way I do without gear?
Good question and the answer is simple. The body can only create so much protein synthesis on its own in a natural state. Gear raises protein synthesis in the body so when we do eat protein every 2 hrs we actually have a chance of causing higher muscle volume through that ability.
This means the answer to your question is no. Once the gear is gone you go back to your old biological individual metabolic ability of protein synthesis. This also means to keep a percentage of gains we have to do as much as we can to help keep those gains and that would include the 6 meal plan, some argue 7meal plan giving an extra window for uptake.
CAUSE AND EFFECT...
Hit a baseball it eventually stops. All things on this planet are cause and effect. All the energy that will ever be her was here in the origin of the universe, no new energy is ever made. We simply take current energy and move it to another place. So in your bodies case nothing you achieve will stay without continued reason "cause" in order to maintain the effect. (A little deep I know but think about it)
Think about this in fact. Your question is similar to asking..."if I get up to 250 lbs by eating like a horse can I stop eating from then on and stay at 250?"
Of course not, simple answer right? Well so is the answer to your question here. We have to keep transfering energy from a place we don't want it to be to a place we want it to be and when you stop it goes away.
If we haness enough energy to run the worlds electricity can we stop hanrnessing electricity? Of course not, its energy being used and sent somewhere else so it has to be replinished.
The simple answer, you eat to get biggger, you have to eat to stay bigger and even so, the ability to harness more of that food energy is there when using the gear because you have extra means of extracting energy. Take that away and you went from harnessing energy with 2 engines back to one. This means make the one engine work more while the other is gone. Does not mean eat more necessarily at each meal, remember protein synthesis is now lower. So you can't take is twice as many grams of protein per meal now because you can only harness half of them. You can however find better ways to harness it meaning maybe more carbs and as well add another meal so you have an extr window to harness it in.
BigBmajHow is that any more relevant than my story about being a junkie?
Great post man.
I've had a real hard time gaining weight lately. Do you think that putting 40 grams of Aminos in my drinking water throughout the day, would help enhance that protein synthesis window? My job is physical and I'm eating 5000 + cals a day and loosing weight, on cycle. I'm getting pissed.
Would a slow steady influx of Aminos be preferred over adding another meal?
tread-mBrother I'd have to hear a whole lot more and it would be things like how many meals ed, what's in the meals, how many carbs and how are they spread out, the gear using etc etc etc....let's assume you are getting the proper protein to gain, my liking is around 1.5 grams per pound of body weight ed and split over 6-7 meals. Then let's assume the other things with mealas are in place . Let's also assume you are not trying to super clean gain, not really dirty bulk but you're not rolling into a show etc. So in this scenerio, job very demanding burning high cals etc....I would say add a 7th meal if rolling 6 and let's increase carbs from there and roll those carbs through all meals except number 7. This will be a net gain in cals don't replace something like veggies with more carbs just add more carbs to the overall plan. I would say try to get those cals up to 6 given the 5 not gettin it. "Cause and effect". The cause in part you are not gaining is your body is burning more than 5k cals and the effect is net loss. Change the cause to higher carbs and 6k cals and the effect will also change.
Just random guesses not knowing the whole story but I bet we're close here.
So anticipating the next thought being "hard to eat that much". Ok so again, cause and effect. If you are creating X amount of ghrelin and literally staying stuffed can't pack more food in hate eating always full etc etc....simoly cannot add more carbs and cals then we change the effect of your current GI because the cause is not enough ghrelin to move more food. Add ghrp6 at 2 subcutaneous hits ed or even 3 hits light dose and boom, we changed the cause. We now have way more ghrelin, we move food much faster and not only will you be able to add 100 cals with carbs, you'll want more in terms of hunger . More ghrelin, move more food, higher uptake of food and protein allows more food in and boom...no longer losing weight. Oh and btw, even if kinda dirty bulking in mild fashion the ghrp6 will cause cleaner gains as well and you will find better muscle gain and higher fat burning. Its a plus plus plus in you scenerio.
BigBmajThis post has changed my whole approach to making gains. It makes sense that if I'm bulking my input needs to exceed my output and if leaning just the opposite, a very simple way of looking at it.
Now I look at my day and if I work hard for two hours I make sure that I make up that amount of calories plus 100 or so. Its just a balancing act. You can look at the philosophical implications as well - all harmony is a balancing of input and output.
I was making it way more complex than it really is.
AND I'M FUCKING GAINING NOW.
AnonGod damn you are fucking smart. "Praise tread" lol crazy to think how much knowledge is in that brain. Post more shit I love everything you write. No homo that sounded really gay
Always impressive brother
BigBmajWow that was very cool of you. And yes you correctly anticipated my question about hunger. I've tried Ghrp 6 and didn't notice the extreme hunger I was expecting. Ill order some more but I was also thinking about trying GHRP 2. Some people have said that oddly enough that caused substantial hunger.
I was trying to clean bulk but I felt like I was having a hard time getting all the calories in. So I've been getting about 220 ish protein and not worrying about anything else. Ill jump that up to 250. And add more vegetables and carbs.
I really like the way you laid things out. I'm starting to look at it like a net sum game. Ie. sleep 8 hrs +, protein req met+, stress levels minimized +, etc. That way, if I feel I'm lacking, I can try to bump up in another dept. So if I only got 6 hours sleep and work was super stressful, i could take a nap, have an extra protein shake, add more nutrient quality to my food for the day, etc.
Ill place a peptide order today and bump the food intake up.
Thanks a lot.
Yea when Tread starts the cause and effect, you really see why he's a guru lol. But yea About you not getting hunger from GHRP6. I've done tons of ghrp6 and 2 from multiple peptide sources.
I never got the extreme hunger from ghrp6 at all even with the cjc. GHRP2 is what makes my appetite extremely high, so if you haven't tried 2 yet I'd say maybe it might work for you.
tread-mGood good brother. Btw, make sure you are getting quality peptides. You should notice a warm face and for some even a flush feeling following the pop of the ghrp6. If you didn't have that chances are you didn't have quality peps. Everyone in my inner circle has that effect and even if not every single pop , most pops. Another avenue run both ghrp6 and cjc1295 long version so you only have to hit it about 3 times a week and the ghrp6 3 ed.
Do you remember your dose and protocol last time? Reason I ask, again if good peps, you should have noticed hunger very quick, within say a week hunger jumping dramatically and that's with a lower dose even. I can't do high doses of it because I actually have so much ghrelin rollng I feel sick all the time...so low dose for me and works great. Now I run gh yr round so plenty of ghrelin and rarely run those 2 peps but just for a higher quality cutter or recomp etc I'll throw it in here and there.
BigBmajI've got the CJC with DAC like 30 bottles.
I have been running ipa and CJC and I did notice face flushing initially but it has since stopped. I was questioning if the stuff had gone bad. My hands aren't numb like they were either.
I tried various doses of the GHRP 6 from 100 mcg to 300 mcg. But I didn't run it long enough apparently. I was expecting instant hunger and when it didn't happen I used it sporadically in place of ipamorelin.
Ill get it from a top source here. Or PM me. And run it at 100 mcg 3 times daily with the CJC and see what happens.
I've been running CJC w/out DAC 100 mcg 3 times daily with ipamorelin 100 mcg. Along side of 2 mg DAC weekly.
I thought I should be still getting the facial flushing!
tread-mYou bring up a good point and its why I staircase my peps during a pep cycle. There is some of that immunity type issue at least to the degree it becomes a little less effective. So to curb that I always ran my peps starting low then raised the dose each week overcoming some of that. So for example we may begin 2 ed at 50 mcg's and add 25 each hit by the week. So week 2 75, week 3- 100 , week 4-125..etc. that will actually work pretty well , or did for me. I think much of that is the pos/neg feedback loops basically adapting to a certain dose over time and if you are slowly staircasing you are somewhat tricking that adaptation.
Great post!
UFOFinally a direct answer....thank you brother, makes perfect sense. Always dropping knowledge and straight to the point how I like it.
That there boys and girls is growth,maintenance, bulk,cut whateva you want to create 101..... Tattoo or bar code this somewhere because THIS and THIS alone is what this lifestyle is ALL about.
KITCHEN IS KING ........................... GAME OVER!!
tread-mThat just happened!
UFOI appreciate the replies but I guess I should have taken this to PMs. Anything that isnt the standard cycle talk seems to turn into a "lets not let the noobs get the wrong idea" thread. I understand what I am asking and doing is not your typical or recommend cycling and it may give the wrong impression. But like I said I know my body and how to recover and am monitored by a physician, not doing private blood tests. Just wasnt sure about the length of cycling determining how much of my gains I keep. I think I got my answer from Roid Noid though. Appreciate the replies and concerns.
after cycle u will eventually lose all gains because u got those gains from drugs, pct wont help keep them
angusAre you for real? I really hope you are joking. That's neither correct nor helpful. I'm not sure where you're going with that.
well that would be a for real statement and probably his experience if he went back to eating like he did before cycle and or he was passed his genetic potential, there is a certain spot your body will always try to go to, mine is 200lbs, I havent seen it for a long time and as long as i throw a cycle in there every now and then im fine. so yes his statement does have some truth to it.
I agree 100%. I've lost all gains within 1.5 month from a cycle simply because my trt dose wasn't high enough and because I couldn't keep up with the eating. My body likes to always go back to 175. I need some GH
angusWhile I completely agree with what you're saying, it didn't appear to me that is what he was inferring when taken in context with the OP. it sounded to me like he was saying that PCT doesn't matter as it won't help save your gains. Perhaps I misunderstood.
You need to research into TRT and receptor satuation!
RustyhookerIf you're running too long without proper recovery then you'll be on trt. Then life gets good! You can't get a boner without a shot or Viagra. No sex drive. Lethargic. Lost all fsins. Fat accumulation. All the great effects of completed shutdown. And as a bonus.....you will be a slave to the pin ling after the fad of gettin swole is long gone. Stuck for life....literally.
BigBmajDo you think this is a slight exaggeration?
I only ask because when I was 24 I did a long cycle for like 2 years with varying doses and compounds. Just adding and subtracting as I went along. I finally ended up with a drug problem I couldn't escape from and went to rehab. I lost all my gains and went through some terrible shit. I never even did PCT - I tried having the shrink rx me some but he wouldn't. I was getting hard all day within 2 months. After I got stable and started lifting again natural I put on weight really fast and it looked good. I had some blood work a few times and my test got back to normal. Later in life I got tested and it was low probably from 170 mg of methadone daily. Then I jumped on TRT and got cleaned up. But not once during the whole thing did I get fat, lazy, no sex drive, no boner, etc... I felt like shit for about two months.
I'm all for limited cycles but sometimes I wonder why everyone says this stuff. I've known many people to not do PCT and rebound fully. They looked bad, felt like shit and lost size but test came back to normal.
DONT GET ME WRONG - not trying to ADVOCATE this approach. IT DIDN'T WORK. But test did come back.
RustyhookerLet me see if I'm understanding your points. You cycled 2 years, got addicted and then went onto trt?
BigBmajThe only reason I gave the info about rehab and drug use is to explain why I did no PCT. And why later in life I did eventually need to do TRT. Opiates are notorious for killing test levels.
BigBmajI did a cycle of juice for at least two years maybe more. Got hooked on heroin at the end of it and went to rehab. I did no pct and got clean for a few years and levels went back to normal. I lost all my size and felt bad but test did rebound. I went from 220 back to 140 lbs.
Then later in life I went on methadone like 5 years later. After being on methadone for 3 years my test was shit like 250 or so. So when I decided to get clean I got on TRT.
Does that make sense?
I've seen many people's test levels rebound after cycles. Not just myself. I've been looking at people's blood work for years, its what I do for work.
Not trying to argue. I just wonder if this stuff gets exaggerated sometimes?
RustyhookerEverybody rebounds differently. But to compare an altered body under just the gear alone and suggest full recovery.....maybe. Doubtful but maybe. If normal levels for a 21year old is 600 and after alls said and done you find yourself sub 200 at 23.....I'd have to say things didnt fully recover. Friends of mine that unfortunately got hooked on heroine are my age(40+) not on trt and starting families since clean.
Basically, if your below normal levels it's not a full recovery. Do that warning should be heard and at least out there to possibly help other young fellers
BigBmajI wasn't certainly recommending anyone take my approach. I had blood work taken while on 170 mg of methadone daily and it was low. I was about 30 and it was low. The doctor said it was probably from the methadone because that happens all the time.
I had a blood test prior to jumping on the methadone and my natural level was about 650 at age 27 that was after doing 2+ years of juice and stopping without PCT.
I don't know what my "natural" level is because when I got clean my doctor mentioned testosterone as a potential antidepressant and it was low so we went for it.
I'm doing a bodybuilding show in Nov, if I can get to a reasonable size. After that point the doctor wants to start PCT and get me normalized. At that point I will be able to tell you what the end result of this 36 year experiment has been.
I've also been looking at people's blood work for years. My friend who is 48 has been cycling on and off for a long time, there were 1 year periods where he would run and then stop abruptly. His natural test, just recently looked at was still 800.
DON'T RUN LONGER THAN YOU SHOULD that's not what I'm saying. Be safe not sorry. I'm just curious about the bodies natural ability to jump back.
RustyhookerI definitly hear ya. Some people DO have an extrenely resilient body. Look at dude from the Rolling Stones. Lol!
+1 for adding a ton of grwat personal info. I'd highly doubt a guy at 48 has a natural test level of 800. The norm for a 48yo isnt even half that level.
Definitly glad you're alive and making strides for stage! Kicking a hard habit must have been very hard to do. Keep heading towards a healthier and happier life.
BigBmajI'll post a picture of him and his blood work. You won't believe it. Dude's amazing. And he eats at McDonalds and all that nasty shit.
Thanks for the response.
BigBmajAt the time of his last blood test which I have available - testosterone was 748 and he was 42 years old.
So I did exaggerate.
Rustyhooker42 and completely hormone free....? Holy crap. 21year olds barely hit that.
I'm in learning mode, Rusty and trust you're posts implicitly but have to ask. I'm 44, test is low (took pre cycle blood work) and likely WILL be on TRT at some point. If I was to continue pinning Test and do end up with TRT for life (I have 6 kids and want no more), will I lose sex drive, be lethargic, etc etc if I stay on a Test E only type of cycle forever? Again, my blood work showed low test and I wasn't myself because of it. I'm now more vivrant, happy, and am at week 6 on my cycle.
So what I'm asking, does TRT make you lose sex drive and all that other ugly stuff even if you are on Test?
RustyhookerNo sir. I'm just behind ya in age and in future will need trt as well. The point was....it's fun to cycle and get muscular. But if you're young and non stop cycling you will become a trt patient ling before its due.
Without trt...after damaged....then you will have the no libido etc as described. Slave to the pin for life becsuse you HAVE to is hugely different than becausr it's fun. But looking at the fallout of the life long lifters, they better plan ahead.
When you roll trt...no worries. That's what therapy if aimed at...better life for us older guys.
Rusty, you are awesome in your explanations and know for sure you'll have a PRO title before long! Thanks Brother!
RustyhookerLol! I certainly gotta look like a Pro first. Long ways to go yet
X2
UFOLike I said bro I run bloods constantly while on and off cycle. To be honest I have ran for almost a full year before while using Deca and tren throughout. I use a real serious PCT protocol that has worked everytime. My natural test as of last OFF cycle, 3 days after PCT, was 750. Now I know recovery is never garunteed but I am pretty confident in my ability to recovery and my knowledge of PCT and how my body responds to it. Everyone is different. At what point do you belive there is no return?
RustyhookerDefinitly not trying to downtalk ya. Just giving ya food for thought. We enjoy growing, strength and certainly the looks we get.
Everyone is definitly different. But a comparison to when its over is thinking back to being young. Been with many women. I must be infertile after all these chicks! Boom...preggo. Just when you're feeling on top and impervious you get decisions to make. Gear is like that as well. You may go many years conservative before bloods come back low or your body could make you into "that guy". We just really don't know.
Without time off there's missing factors as well. Your body "learning" to hold the new mass. Learning to revamp foods for natty retaining of new mass. And clearing receptors. Yes...yes, receptors keep getting replaced but as with anything if you're saturated.......they're full.
Half life. Without a good time off cycle those Esters are still in your body ling after pct is complete. Deca metabolites have been found 18mo after cycle. And with blood tests coming back near 5000 on a basic cycle....how long til you're fully natty at normal range? Everyone processes chemicals differently.
Finally...the real truth...my quote to eroids..."If a 6pack does the job, then why grab the Jack?" When a few beers hits the spot and you keep pushing for more, soon enought you NEED more to even maintain. Next thing ya know you're not growing on 1500mgs per week. Resistance! Its real.
UFOGood post brother, appreciate the replies and dropping knowledge.
+1 Rusty. That was very well said.
RustyhookerThank you sir! I wish there was an easy reset for everyone. Would make goal getting easier! But if you hit goals easy, would it be as fun?
If it meant cycling sooner because of faster recovery, hell yeah it would be fun lol
That would be the holy grail of cycling...
RustyhookerWould suddenly be more huge freaks in the gym for sure! Lol!
angusYou say you are confident in your knowledge of PCT, buy clearly you are unaware that your test values 3 days after PCT are inflated from the Clomid. It has a long half-life and will stay active for several weeks to a month after succession. You would need to test a month after your PCT to get your true values but it doesn't sound like you are staying off that long, so you are really never getting a good reading on where your body is at. Nor are you giving it a chance to return to homeostasis. If it works for you and you know the reward for doing it then by all means continue, but rusty spelled it out pretty good what will inevitably happen.