estrogen discussion
Ok it seems as though I find myself more and more obsessed with estrogen even though with low bf its not that big of an issue personally. Originally I found myself just addressing it and its EXTREME EFFECTS to the older crowd. As I talk to these younger guys in an age of technology and lack of exersize I begin to realize how important it is to them as well. First let me ask you to focus through the boring part here because I will get to how it ca n double or triple your gains in a cycle and eve n help keep gains in a post cycle and off cycle. First up, high estogen in men was never even really discussed much until real recently, estrogen was always thought to be a womans problem. Recent studies have shown powerful information as to high estrogen in males. Studies began to show that males who had died from disease at ages considered to be young and some not, had a common denominator, high estrogen. It may have been though the high estrogen was the product of disease and not studied much further at one point. Now they know it was the other way around, the high estrogen is a commob denominator in pre-diseased males who will eventually experience disease. So one my immediately conclude to lower estrogen will ad 10 or 20 years to your life, this could be true but we may want to back up a bit. The question becomes, was the estrogen the beginning or was it just part of the chain and something else began the whole problem. I think the latter, if you check estrogen levels in young men that are not using gear they tend to be normal, it seems only as a drop in hormone begins to occur the estrogen begins to rise. So this goes to where the trt and hrt come in for older men to break the chain at the level before we get to high estrogen levels come into play. This of course does not mean you have solved the estrogen situation since there is still this war of good vs evil going on in the body. The point is, an AI should be not only on hand but utilized periodically to keep those levels in check. Now to the juicy part for everyone. Why does estroge n matter to me ykusay, I'm only 25? Here the reason at 25 or 55 you should keep estrogen in check if you are a gear user in particular. Sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG). THE ACTUAL JOB OF Shbg Is to store testosterone for a rainy day when you are low. So we have to think , "what if SHBG. Stores too much of my test and its not available to my body to utilize for growth and health etc?" This is where estrogen comes in, when estrogen is elevated it takes SHBG ALONG FOR THE RIDE USUALLY. That is to say, if estogen levels rise SHBG WILL LIKELY RISE RIGHT ALONG WITH IT. So big deal right? Yes, very big deal...remember SHBG stores test which means the test it is storing is not available for use. Like oil reserves that don't have any affect on gas prices because the are "not for use". So if you drive estrogen down, you drive down SHBG and you drive up free test levels and you drive your ass to the gym lookin like a pimp! See the magic. Now, these are only a couple of reasons estrogen play such an important part in our daily lives and health as well as building. Drop in your experience with it and any suggestions you have so we can all benefit. By the way, most males that die below the gae of 70 had this problem so what if we decide to change that. I talked my father in law into having his checked over the holidays as he had never had it checked in his life to his knowledge. Knowledge is power only if we use it...share yours....
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Tread,....I think your becoming a bit of an alarmist.
Just because Low Testoserone seems to be at an all time peak and therefore you could argue that High Estrogen is at an all time high.
Next your going to blame it all on microwave ovens we have and the fact that we re-heat a lot of our foods on or in plastic containers (that happen to contain BPA which is known to give off a chemical that mimics estrogen when heated).
So Tread, please quite trying to scare these good people and trust in "big brother" and their supporting staff of big biz, (that would never do anything to harm us,.......disspite the billions they could make doing so.
tread-mI'm just glad you're here to keep me grounded K. I get these crazy things going in my head and can't seem to stop them and the room starts spinning and the next thing you know I'm convinced I am being watched.....I can't talk now I'll get back to you...Alpha Omega out...
In some warped sense of my imagination this makes sense.
Study have shown that low testosterone levels can be an early killer of men and now high estrogen levels are also a early killer.
ETA: Ever notice that FDA, DEA and big pharma don't regulate estrogen like the do Testosterone, ...........they want us all dead or dying so they can suck all the money they can from are (so to be)corpse.
tread-mWORDS OF WISDOM!
This been has been a very interesting read. I had already been talking with Tread in PM regarding this matter as my Estro had gone through the roof @105 where at my age I should be nearer 30-40. No gyno as such but just a bit of shrinkage in the nut department. Generally feel washed out and realy struggling to motivate myself (not good as I am now in blast phase. Just started taking adex 0.5mg for 3-4 days then going to drop down to 0.25 eod and see what develops
tread-mI think that will benefit you a lot to 1st as to all the issues you have with sluggish etc. Would be nice to get some bloods done while you are cruising at some point to give some direction as to effectiveness of the cruise and adjust therapy in direction a bit if needed. Keep patient on the AI and for your sake I hope it kinda brings you back in balance. You're headed in the right direction at the very least given its all about learning yourself and hormone needs. Once you learn it all in terms of your own reactions to everything and in what doses etc it gets a whole lot easier I promise.
Will be getting estro checked again in just over a week. Then going to wait till I get well into cruise again, let everything settle down and get thorough bloods again. You are right of course and the more I get into it the more I will understand what is making my body react and learn how to tweak things.
tread-mJust gets better from here..
Good read!
Great topic tread. You saved me a bunch of hours in research by starting this. Thank you kind sir.
tread-mGlad it helped, you helped to with your questions as did everyone!
People overate low estrogen sides and underate high estrogen sides. Low estrogen will keep you from gaining at your full potential but your sex life will be "normal". As long as you keep it on a stable level your lipids wont be affected much even if its on the low side. High estrogen on the other hand has a 4000$ tag for gyno surgery, can destroy your sex life completely and also your lipids + trigs will be so bad you wont be able to breath even while walking (same risk when you go extrempely low on e2 with letro).
High e2 can actually kill you on cycle if your triglycerids and lipids are out of whack for too long you have an increased risk for a heart attack. Low e2 might kill your joints/bone and make you prone to the odd cold but i would prefer those sides over high bp, zits, atrophy, depression, moodswings, enlarged prostate any day of the week. Controlling estrogen goes a long way that 5% of gains you loose is actually worth it. Imagine loosing 5% every time and beeing able to run 20-30 cycles in your lifetime or not loosing that 5% and get hit by gyno on your first/second/whatever run. I hate estrogen with a vengeance i could go all day about its negative sides, it sure destroyed my life till i found gear.
Btw thread the doses you are proposing there are for trt, when it comes too cycling only 5-10% of people will be fine with that dose they will propably need a 7-8% of bf or less and of course good genetics. Oh and if you are unfortunate to get gyno from high e2 you have a much increased chance of having male breast cancer!!
For the users of adex there is a chance you might metabolise it too fast hence no matter what dose you take your estrogen will be all over the place. For users of aromasin (+hgh) you can actually generate more aromataze with the hgh than you are killing with the suicidal ai hence making it less effective. Letro is another ballgame alltogether stay well away from it.
Suggested dosages:
adex 0.5mg-1mg eod on cycle 0.25mg-0.5mg e3d on a cruise/trt
aromasin 12.5-25mg ed/eod on cycle 6.25mg eod on cruise/trt
tread-mNice additions to the post Mazzy
Nice post to begin with and you trt/hrt guys hold all the answers
tread-mHuman test subjects and pin cushions! Lol
Ok so do both lower e2. This is the shit that confuses the crap out of me. Please clarify. Also where is your information from good read. I am all about more knowledge.
Adex will lower e2 by 30-50% by binding to the enzyme for 3-5days as long as you metabolise it normally and keep dosing it. Aromasin will kill the enzyme it self so no matter how much testosterone you are using you wont be converting much esp after longterm use. Supposedly aromasin lowers e2 by 65-70% but i have found it more effective even than letro. Some studies show letro to lower e2 by 98% others by 60%.
Aromasin is the best ai hands down just needs a bit of care when you use it (esp with hgh). They all lower e2 letro and adex bind to the enzyme and asin kills it completely. My information comes from what i have experienced myself and while researching on ai's and trt.
Would it hurt to take a little bit of adex even though I don't have any estrogen sides? I'm all for preventing problems before they arise so if it's going to help me I will lose 5% gains all day before I get bitch tits or any type of bitch problems.
Let me know
What are you running? Ive seen some cases (trt) online with people unable to convert any e2 they had 3 (0-60) on 200mg test c a week. If you are one of those there is no point but you would never know without a blood test. If you have the slightest sensitivity in your nipples or inconsistent libido/hardons then try a bit of adex to see if it helps. It will not hurt esp adex i dont think it has an effect in a persons gains, 40% e2 suppresion shouldnt affect your gains. As a precaution i would use it anyway try and see which dose works for you. Start with 0.25mg eod/e2d if your libido gets shot just come off it. When you say you have no estrogen sides do you get night+morning wood consistently? Can you maintain a stiffy for as long as you want?
Although for your age marginally high e2 will propably manifest in other ways. You are young!
I'm 5 weeks into a Test E only cycle at around 600mg a week.
Yes I get night and morning wood. I wake up wanting to fuck anything in site, the hardness isn't as crazy as week 4 ( was too much ) but definitely hard as a rock still. My nips are only a baby bit sensitive if I sit there and fuck with them like a hypochondriac otherwise they aren't sensitive at all.
I've always been pretty lean and never had problems with estrogen, I would like to keep it that way...maybe I'll start adex in a couple days into week 6? They won't inhibit gains unless I use too much right? Should I use it for a couple days and then stop? I don't want to kill the estrogen in my body completely either.
If you are to have problems it is going to be the next couple of weeks. Use the hardness you had at week 4 as a gauge. If i was you i would start it. You wont kill all your estrogen in your body it is very mild, just use a little to start with and go from there. Using it for 2 days will do nothing whatsoever, i suggest you use it a week or so. If you use it say more than two weeks expect a rebound when you stop it. If its your first cycle just use it anyway at a low dose you will get sides after week 6-7 as long as your test is not under. Dont touch them nipples it might make you paranoid just leave them and if they start itching then you know you need an AI for sure.
What exactly do you mean by rebound when I stop it?
Alright I'll use it for a week or so and see what happens...what positive effects should I look for? crazy hard ons I guess? and what negative effects should I look for? sore joints?
Thanks for your answers by the way bro you are awesome.
Rebound means you will have an estrogen spike/increase when you stop it. The painfull hardons that you had at week 4 is your sweet point you should be looking to maintaining that. If you suppress a bit too much you might not get wood alltogether or you will loose consistency. You wont get sore joints from such low doses. Every change you make with it is going to take at least 3 days to show. I suggest you try and keep your libido as it was at week 4 throughout your cycle. Np good luck with your cycle
Alright mazzy I'm going to add you bro. You going to be my estrogen coach. hahaha! thanks again bro.
Kind of makes sense too, women drop most of their estrogen when they get older (and enter menopause) and live longer lives, we drop most of our test and die 10 years too soon due to boredom.
tread-mBoredom will be my next topic, don't get too far ahead of the class or you will be placed in the gifted and talented class with the funny looking girls! Just dumb yourself down a bit like I do and play along....lol. i have a joke for you if you have not heard it. A man meets a beautiful princess and falls in love and asks her to marry him, she said no. He then road dirt bikes and bought cool cars and had a nice house and did steroids and got big and banged lots of girls and all his friends and family thought he was cool and he had nice clothes and he watched Fing tv all the time and nobody bitched at him and he banged more hot young chicks and rented limos and hung out at clubs and never had stress and lived happily ever after..The End
tread-mDp
Aromasin kills the estrogen receptor. It kills off the binder at 98%. So in theory it would be the better choice correct? Or does it lower estrogen to much and effect muscle building?
It is the perfect AI fot the gyno prone, there is a major risk for everyone else if you kill too much aromataze your body might take days/weeks to produce more, if you go too low on estrogen with aromasin it will take a while for your body to balance out. With arimidex it only takes 3 days with aromasin it all depends on the individual. It actually boostes igf and increases bone density so it helps with muscle building. If adex is working for you stick with that. Aromasin causes alopecia much more so than the other ai's also it affects digestion when you combine that with oral steroids like dbol you can put a huge strain on your stomach.
tread-mI would lean to periodically with it. Yes to too much IMO if for the long haul and that can get dangerous at the other end....not opposed to aromasin at all though in moderation.
AnonSince routinely taking Adex E3D @ .5mgs I keep slightly leaner, less water and just feel better. Acne stays checked unless I eat high fats and sugars in excess. Too much Adex and my sex drives falls off and I may feel almost "dry".
There is a fine line but IME the light side of estro is my side of choice.
tread-mThat sounds in the zone brother...
Tread what do you use on cycle for estro? Arimidex? Aromasin? I'm in the 5th week of my cycle and have NO sides whatsoever except for a few baby specs of acne.
Should I begin using the Adex soon anyways to combat extra estro? Any input on using the AI correctly would be great.... I know I'm supposed to use it if I get any of the estrogen gyno type sides but what about sides I don't see or depleting estro build up before I get any sides?
tread-mDepends on the cycle and your body fat percentage. If bf is high I would say run it at .25 eod knowing estrogen is not only already present but that number will increase. A person (not you). With high bf often does not understanf the bf alone can. Be the reason they cannot achieve on a cycle. Always best to shred the bf as soon as possible to begin real achievment. If a person is lean and not holding water or running a cycle that is water prone then I say you could use it leaving cycle as you get vready for pct. This will help cut it if present in numbers too high and also give better success in the post cycle time.
Yeah that makes a ton of sense. I'm lean as fark and never really had any estrogenic sides but I can see my estro probably being out of wack after the cycle. So I guess unless I get sides out of no where I'll use it from last test injection to end of pct? Does that sound right?
tread-mMaybe more like 3 pins from the end to one week into pct. Then as needed yes.....thats all IMO now so hopefully you can get a few more suggestions. There is no reason in the world in my view you could not bring it in post pct for a couple weeks if you see some negative going on. It will not only drop estro but could help drive natty up just a hair as well. A lot of men with high bf not even using gear are beginning to look at it being there is health benefit and for the same reasons we talked about here. All of that is even before we talk about how it can lower bp and help with acne at the same time. It would almost just be a giv en in a dbol cycle unless you're Donald Cerrone skinny.
tread-m"If we" should not be at the beginning of this....fix it grrrrrrrrrrl : )