posted Sun, 10/09/2011 - 07:53
6499
Is my Test E underdosed?
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I need your help guys.
I'm in the middle of my first cycle which goes like this:
500mg of Test E every week (10 weeks)
30mg DBol daily first 4 weeks
The brand of both products is US Pharma Tech.
This being my 5th week, I discontinued Dbol at the start of the week. First alert came by the middle of the week when I realized I had lost 1kg / 2pounds. I decided to believe it was all water leaving my body because I actually feel like the muscle I have now is a little more solid and what not.
What's freaking me out now is that I just took a shower and I've noticed that my testicles have recovered their original size even though I'm not taking any HCG yet.
Is this possible/common when I'm taking 500mg test a week?
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As I have stated 500mg/week should not cause shrinkage. Another used posted this reply in the other hcg question thread:
Posted by Logan1221
I know a lot of people take hcg during their cycle but it totally depends on your intake of test. I have never had a problem with 500mg/week of test that I needed hcg during my cycle. I take it at the end to jump start my pct. If you are taking large dosages of test then it will change but if it is relatively low to med dosages you may not have to take it at all. What is your cycle?
AAS-KINGby swale (MD / hrt specailist). originally posted at steroidology
I advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of HCG (250IU to 500IU) two days each week, right from the beginning of the cycle. This serves to maintain testicular form and function. It makes more sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three counties later on. I am also a big fan of maintaining estrogen within physiological ranges. Both therapies have been shown to hasten recovery.
Any more than 500IU of HCG per day causes too much aromatase activity. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes. You are then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while treating steroid-induced secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is temporary--hopefully).
If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn?t enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn?t mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive.
The testes are then ready, willing and able to again produce testosterone at the end of the cycle. LH levels rise fairly rapidly, but endogenous testosterone production is limited by lack of use. I also want to make sure a SERM, such as Clomid or Nolvadex, is at effective serum dosage (around 100mg QD for Clomid, 20-40mg QD for Nolvadex) when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week. That is when androgenic inhibition at the HP no longer dominates over estrogenic antagonism with respect to inducing LH production. Of course, if the fellow has been doing Clomid or Nolvadex all along the way (and I now prefer Nolvadex over Clomid, due to the possibility of negative sides from the Clomid), he is all set to simply continue it at the end (no need to switch from one to the other). BTW, I see no evidence of any benefit in using BOTH SERM?s at the same time. I used to think a couple of weeks of the SERM was enough; now I like to see an entire month after the last shot of AAS (and migration of long to short esters as the cycle matures). Tapering the SERM is probably a good idea during the last week, as well.
I want my patients to stop taking HCG within a week after the end of the cycle. The testosterone production it induces will further inhibit recovery, as will using Androgel, or any other testosterone preparation, while in recovery. There is no escaping this, as there is no such thing as a ?bridge?. Just because you are not inhibiting the HPTA for the entire 24 hours does not mean you are not suppressing it at all. IOW, you can?t ?fool? the body?it is smarter than you are.
I like Arimidex during the cycle (in fact, consider use of an AI while taking aromatisables a necessity) but it ABSOLUTELY should not be used post cycle (even though it has been shown to increase LH production) because the risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile, is too great (this also drives libido back into the ground?and we don?t want that, do we?).
All this is meant to get my guys through recovery as fast as possible (the real goal, yes?). So far, all of them who have tried it have reported they are recovering faster than when they have tried other
I've read swale's protocol and its a great one but first you have to realize that his protocol is for HRT/TRT patients. This is seen here where Swale posts about it him self Here it is:
AN UPDATE TO THE CRISLER HCG PROTOCOL
In my paper “My Current Best Thoughts on How to Administer TRT for Men”, published in A4M’s 2004/5 Anti-Aging Clinical Protocols, I introduced a new protocol where small doses of Human Chorionic Gonadotrophin (HCG) are regularly added to traditional TRT (either weekly IM testosterone cypionate or daily cream/gel). The reasons and benefits of this protocol are as follows, along with a new improvement I wish to share:
Any physician who administers TRT will, within the first few months of doing so, field complaints from their patients because they are now experiencing troubling testicular atrophy. Irrespective of the numerous and abundant benefits of TRT, men never enjoy seeing their genitals shrinking! Testicular atrophy occurs because the depressed LH level, secondary to the HPTA suppression TRT induces, no longer supports them. It is well known that HCG—a Luteinizing Hormone (LH) analog—will effectively, and dramatically, restore the testicles to previous form and function. It accomplishes this due to shared moiety between the alpha subunits of both hormones.
So, that satisfies an aesthetic consideration which should not be ignored. Now let’s delve into the pharmacodynamics of the TRT medications. For those employing injectable
testosterone cypionate, the cypionate ester provides a 5-8 day half-life, depending upon the specific metabolism, activity level, and overall health of the patient. It is now well-established that appropriate TRT using IM injections must be dosed at weekly intervals, in order to avoid seating the patient on a hormonal, and emotional, roller coaster. Adding in some HCG toward the end of the weekly “cycle” compensates for the drop in serum androgen levels by the half-life of the cypionate ester. Certainly the body thrives on regularity, and supplementing the TRT with endogenous testosterone production at just the right time—without inappropriately raising androgen OR estrogen (more on that later)—approximates the excellent performance stability of transdermal testosterone delivery systems for those who, for whatever reason or reasons, prefer test cyp.
But there’s another metabolic reason to employ this protocol. The P450 Side Chain Cleavage enzyme, which converts CHOL into pregnenolone at the initiation of all three metabolic pathways CHOL serves as precursor (the sex hormones, glucocorticoids and mineralcorticoids), is actively stimulated, or depressed, by LH concentrations. It is intuitively consistent that during conditions of lowered testosterone levels, commensurate increases in LH production would serve to stimulate this conversion from CHOL into these pathways, thereby feeding more raw material for increased hormone production. And vice versa. Thus the addition of HCG (which also stimulates the P450scc enzyme) helps restore a more natural balance of the hormones within this pathway in patients who are entirely, or even partially, HPTA-suppressed.
It is important that no more than 500IU of HCG be administered on any given day. There is only just so much stimulation possible, and exceeding that not only is wasteful, doing so has important negative consequences. Higher doses overly stimulate testicular aromatase, which inappropriately raises estrogen levels, and brings on the detrimental effects of same. It also causes Leydig cell desentization to LH, and we are therefore inducing primary hypogonadism while perhaps treating secondary hypogonadism. 250IU QD is an effective, and safe, dose. After all, we are merely replacing that which is lost to inhibition.
In my previous report I recommended 250IU of HCG twice per week for all TRT patients, taken the day of, along with the day before, the weekly test cyp injection. After looking at countless lab printouts, listening to subjective reports from patients, and learning more about HCG, I am now shifting that regimen forward one day. In other words, my test cyp TRT patients now take their HCG at 250IU two days before, as well as the day immediately previous to, their IM shot. All administer their HCG subcutaneously, and dosage may be adjusted as necessary (I have yet to see more than 350IU per dose required).
I made this change after realizing that the previous HCG protocol was boosting serum testosterone levels too much, as the test cyp serum concentrations rise, approaching its peak at roughly the 72 hour mark. The original goal of supporting serum androgen levels with HCG had overshot its mark.
Those TRT patients who prefer a transdermal testosterone, or even testosterone pellets (although I am not in favor of same), take their HCG every third day. They needn’t concern themselves with diminishing serum androgen levels from their testosterone delivery system. These patients will, of course, notice an increase in serum androgen levels above baseline.
While HCG, as sole TRT, is still considered treatment of choice for hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism by many , my experience is that it just does not bring the same subjective benefits as pure testosterone delivery systems do—even when similar serum androgen levels are produced from comparable baseline values. However, supplementing the more “traditional” TRT of transdermal, or injected, testosterone with HCG stabilizes serum levels, prevents testicular atrophy, helps rebalance expression of other hormones, and brings reports of greatly increased sense of well-being and libido. My patients absolutely love it. As time goes on, we are coming to appreciate HCG as a much more powerful--and wonderful--hormone than previously given credit.
....second it is for people that absolutely NEED HCG. The OP is neither of these things. Can he run HCG and be on the safe side? OF COURSE. Never said he shouldn't. Simply saying he DOESN'T NEED hcg at 500mg/week
I used to think this was the consensus around here and it makes sense to me, but it doesn't seem to be the case now.
Zero acne or even backne. Libido is high though.
Northern Gearsome wont get acne, is your skin oily? if you scratch your fingernail down the side of your nose, do you get an oily residue under your nail?
I've noticed my nose being slight more oily than usual. Knowing me I expected it to be far worse. It's a very liquid oil though.
Northern Gearwell if nothing has changed in your diet,sleeping, or training habits, than i would say your test is probably g2g...oily skin for me, is a tell tale sign.
Thanks, pal.
your balls SHOULDN'T shrink at 500mg of Test E.......HCG is not needed at a dose of 500mg...You will lose a bit of water weight after stopping Dbol but surprisingly enough I only lost it in "looks" and not actual tangible weight on the scale
BostonI couldnt disagree more. 500mgs of test e will shrink your balls every single time by week 6-8. Hcg will not hurt at 500ius per week all the way through the cycle. It isnt critical though.
again i'll state, HCG at a dose of 500mg for 10-12 weeks is not needed. Im running 600mg a week and my nuts are still swinging. Yes I know everybody is different but its not needed. HCG is mostly used for cosmetic reasons because guys on cycle dont want small nuts. HCG can actually desensitive your leydig cells and it also raises estradiol. These are drugs were talking about....if its not absolutely needed, then there is no reason to put your self in the way of sides. HCG is mostly used for people on longer cycles (pushing the 14-20 week range)
Examples: http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?335429-Is-HCG-necessary-on-a-Te...
also
http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?104127-When-is-HCG-necessary#.T...
AAS-KINGlmfao
man i only clicked on one of them links and its 8 years out dated crap .come on ////
read here
you could of given a better read up than that man and i am not being disrepectfull at all
read the below link its from a very experanced guy indeed
http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/steroid-testosterone-information/14720-hcg-pc...
it doesn't matter if its 8 years out of date.....the point is at 500mg/week you dont ABSOLUTELY NEED HCG and could possibly cause more damage in the long run if not used right. How can you tell me my testicles will ABSOLUTELY shrink before week 8 on strictly Testosterone? I just looked down at my sack and haven't lost any size. Its not guaranteed.
Agreed! Although I am a proponent of HCG while on cycle the term "necessary" is not one I would implore.
lol THANK YOU. its definitely good to include but its not necessary.
AAS-KINGlmfao
man i only clicked on one of them links and its 8 years out dated crap .come on ////
read here
http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/steroid-testosterone-information/14720-hcg-pc...
AAS-KINGbingo
i mean the avarage man aged 18-35 will produce around 60-80 mgs natty test per week ,now if your injecing 500mgs per week near 6-7 x the natural ammount your bpody reaction to this is to stop its own production of test hence your balls shriking ...
no disrepect but to say 500mgs test e per week wont cause shinkage is just a super super bold and untrue statement imo
read examples above. your nuts shrink because your leydig cells shrink while on cycle (which actually HCG doesn't help). HCG only works by MIMICKING the LH and FSH cells. using HCG when not needed will desensitize your leydig cells (possibly permanently). There is a study if I can find it again, that shows that your FSH and LH actually kick back in after a few weeks on cycle and after certain periods of time which is different for everybody.
sgtstedankoI remember reading that to, where the fuck was that?? Pm it to me, if you find it again bro. I've personally never once used HCG.
lol will do. I know for a fact HCG is not a necessity to have on an only test cycle for that amount of time.
I only ordered the HCG because it's recommended in the beginners cycle posted in the sticky in this same forum. And actually I got some pretty quick shrinkage when I was taking Dbol.
Also, how is not shrinkage expected from 500mg Test E weekly. In my mind that's double the testosterone a normal man produces. Is it not?
because it doesn't necessarily matter how much test your taking in. So say for instance, if you are taking just enough to shut you down and your nuts dont shrink, then its not like they are gonna shrink anymore if you dump a gram into your system. shutdown is shutdown. you might have gotten the quick shrinkage from the quick rush of androgens from dbol into your system
Northern Gearthis!
lol thank you! theres alot of misinformation being posted and im gonna try my best to clear it up
AAS-KINGhold on guys -your balls shouldent shrink of 500mgs test e ??
i am confused becasue when we inject steroids even at a low dose your hpta shuts down its testosterone production to the testies ,now when the testies stop produceing there own test they shirnk so i disagree with your balls shouldent shut fdown off 500mgs test
just my opinian and personal experance guys
its because its not based on the amount you are taking, its based on the duration of being on cycle and 10-12 weeks of strictly test (minus the dbol) usually isn't enough to cause shrinkage
BostonIt's not a matter of opinion, you are right. This is truth period.
Northern Gearby week 5 on 500mg of test e...it should not be a noticable difference
I swear, they got smaller from DBol then back to their original size only this week.
AAS-KINGsounds strange man ,the reasonfor a kicker as you know is to get things going whileyou wait for the long esters to kick in ,now week 5 and test e should be fully kicked in imo and you should be feeling great and huge pumps ,its very strange that your balls are starting to get bigger ...very strange ...idk man am not calling bunk gear just yet but it dont add up to me ...maybe give it nother two weeks ??
Northern Gearsounds like your paranoid in all honesty, hows your sex drive? it is normal for you to lose a little weight when you stop the dbol. although maybe the test is underdosed, i think it would be far too early for any testicular atrophy to be noticable, but i have never heard of US Pharma Tech. hope this helps a little.
My sex drive is great I would say. Now that you say it, have I noticed it getting back to normal in the last week? I don't know. Too soon to tell.
What's funny is that I started seeing changes in my testicles starting day 1 on Dbol: first they got "tighter" (sitting higher than normally). Then after a couple of weeks they got slightly smaller.
Northern Gearis your skin oily? and are you getting acne on your face, back and upper arms/delts?
Nope, no acne or backne even though I thought I would be prone to it. I used to get backne surges in my youth just from training and dieting.
Northern Gearread my above comment about scratching your nose.