muscley's picture
muscley
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Is my Test E underdosed?

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I need your help guys.
I'm in the middle of my first cycle which goes like this:

500mg of Test E every week (10 weeks)
30mg DBol daily first 4 weeks

The brand of both products is US Pharma Tech.

This being my 5th week, I discontinued Dbol at the start of the week. First alert came by the middle of the week when I realized I had lost 1kg / 2pounds. I decided to believe it was all water leaving my body because I actually feel like the muscle I have now is a little more solid and what not.

What's freaking me out now is that I just took a shower and I've noticed that my testicles have recovered their original size even though I'm not taking any HCG yet.

Is this possible/common when I'm taking 500mg test a week?

kwabby6's picture

As I have stated 500mg/week should not cause shrinkage. Another used posted this reply in the other hcg question thread:

Posted by Logan1221

I know a lot of people take hcg during their cycle but it totally depends on your intake of test. I have never had a problem with 500mg/week of test that I needed hcg during my cycle. I take it at the end to jump start my pct. If you are taking large dosages of test then it will change but if it is relatively low to med dosages you may not have to take it at all. What is your cycle?

kwabby6's picture

I've read swale's protocol and its a great one but first you have to realize that his protocol is for HRT/TRT patients. This is seen here where Swale posts about it him self Here it is:

AN UPDATE TO THE CRISLER HCG PROTOCOL

In my paper “My Current Best Thoughts on How to Administer TRT for Men”, published in A4M’s 2004/5 Anti-Aging Clinical Protocols, I introduced a new protocol where small doses of Human Chorionic Gonadotrophin (HCG) are regularly added to traditional TRT (either weekly IM testosterone cypionate or daily cream/gel). The reasons and benefits of this protocol are as follows, along with a new improvement I wish to share:

Any physician who administers TRT will, within the first few months of doing so, field complaints from their patients because they are now experiencing troubling testicular atrophy. Irrespective of the numerous and abundant benefits of TRT, men never enjoy seeing their genitals shrinking! Testicular atrophy occurs because the depressed LH level, secondary to the HPTA suppression TRT induces, no longer supports them. It is well known that HCG—a Luteinizing Hormone (LH) analog—will effectively, and dramatically, restore the testicles to previous form and function. It accomplishes this due to shared moiety between the alpha subunits of both hormones.

So, that satisfies an aesthetic consideration which should not be ignored. Now let’s delve into the pharmacodynamics of the TRT medications. For those employing injectable
testosterone cypionate, the cypionate ester provides a 5-8 day half-life, depending upon the specific metabolism, activity level, and overall health of the patient. It is now well-established that appropriate TRT using IM injections must be dosed at weekly intervals, in order to avoid seating the patient on a hormonal, and emotional, roller coaster. Adding in some HCG toward the end of the weekly “cycle” compensates for the drop in serum androgen levels by the half-life of the cypionate ester. Certainly the body thrives on regularity, and supplementing the TRT with endogenous testosterone production at just the right time—without inappropriately raising androgen OR estrogen (more on that later)—approximates the excellent performance stability of transdermal testosterone delivery systems for those who, for whatever reason or reasons, prefer test cyp.

But there’s another metabolic reason to employ this protocol. The P450 Side Chain Cleavage enzyme, which converts CHOL into pregnenolone at the initiation of all three metabolic pathways CHOL serves as precursor (the sex hormones, glucocorticoids and mineralcorticoids), is actively stimulated, or depressed, by LH concentrations. It is intuitively consistent that during conditions of lowered testosterone levels, commensurate increases in LH production would serve to stimulate this conversion from CHOL into these pathways, thereby feeding more raw material for increased hormone production. And vice versa. Thus the addition of HCG (which also stimulates the P450scc enzyme) helps restore a more natural balance of the hormones within this pathway in patients who are entirely, or even partially, HPTA-suppressed.

It is important that no more than 500IU of HCG be administered on any given day. There is only just so much stimulation possible, and exceeding that not only is wasteful, doing so has important negative consequences. Higher doses overly stimulate testicular aromatase, which inappropriately raises estrogen levels, and brings on the detrimental effects of same. It also causes Leydig cell desentization to LH, and we are therefore inducing primary hypogonadism while perhaps treating secondary hypogonadism. 250IU QD is an effective, and safe, dose. After all, we are merely replacing that which is lost to inhibition.

In my previous report I recommended 250IU of HCG twice per week for all TRT patients, taken the day of, along with the day before, the weekly test cyp injection. After looking at countless lab printouts, listening to subjective reports from patients, and learning more about HCG, I am now shifting that regimen forward one day. In other words, my test cyp TRT patients now take their HCG at 250IU two days before, as well as the day immediately previous to, their IM shot. All administer their HCG subcutaneously, and dosage may be adjusted as necessary (I have yet to see more than 350IU per dose required).

I made this change after realizing that the previous HCG protocol was boosting serum testosterone levels too much, as the test cyp serum concentrations rise, approaching its peak at roughly the 72 hour mark. The original goal of supporting serum androgen levels with HCG had overshot its mark.

Those TRT patients who prefer a transdermal testosterone, or even testosterone pellets (although I am not in favor of same), take their HCG every third day. They needn’t concern themselves with diminishing serum androgen levels from their testosterone delivery system. These patients will, of course, notice an increase in serum androgen levels above baseline.

While HCG, as sole TRT, is still considered treatment of choice for hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism by many , my experience is that it just does not bring the same subjective benefits as pure testosterone delivery systems do—even when similar serum androgen levels are produced from comparable baseline values. However, supplementing the more “traditional” TRT of transdermal, or injected, testosterone with HCG stabilizes serum levels, prevents testicular atrophy, helps rebalance expression of other hormones, and brings reports of greatly increased sense of well-being and libido. My patients absolutely love it. As time goes on, we are coming to appreciate HCG as a much more powerful--and wonderful--hormone than previously given credit.

....second it is for people that absolutely NEED HCG. The OP is neither of these things. Can he run HCG and be on the safe side? OF COURSE. Never said he shouldn't. Simply saying he DOESN'T NEED hcg at 500mg/week

muscley's picture

I used to think this was the consensus around here and it makes sense to me, but it doesn't seem to be the case now.

muscley's picture

Zero acne or even backne. Libido is high though.

muscley's picture

I've noticed my nose being slight more oily than usual. Knowing me I expected it to be far worse. It's a very liquid oil though.

muscley's picture

Thanks, pal.

kwabby6's picture

your balls SHOULDN'T shrink at 500mg of Test E.......HCG is not needed at a dose of 500mg...You will lose a bit of water weight after stopping Dbol but surprisingly enough I only lost it in "looks" and not actual tangible weight on the scale

kwabby6's picture

again i'll state, HCG at a dose of 500mg for 10-12 weeks is not needed. Im running 600mg a week and my nuts are still swinging. Yes I know everybody is different but its not needed. HCG is mostly used for cosmetic reasons because guys on cycle dont want small nuts. HCG can actually desensitive your leydig cells and it also raises estradiol. These are drugs were talking about....if its not absolutely needed, then there is no reason to put your self in the way of sides. HCG is mostly used for people on longer cycles (pushing the 14-20 week range)

Examples: http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?335429-Is-HCG-necessary-on-a-Te...

also

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?104127-When-is-HCG-necessary#.T...

kwabby6's picture

it doesn't matter if its 8 years out of date.....the point is at 500mg/week you dont ABSOLUTELY NEED HCG and could possibly cause more damage in the long run if not used right. How can you tell me my testicles will ABSOLUTELY shrink before week 8 on strictly Testosterone? I just looked down at my sack and haven't lost any size. Its not guaranteed.

HllwdBdBoy's picture

Agreed! Although I am a proponent of HCG while on cycle the term "necessary" is not one I would implore.

kwabby6's picture

lol THANK YOU. its definitely good to include but its not necessary.

kwabby6's picture

read examples above. your nuts shrink because your leydig cells shrink while on cycle (which actually HCG doesn't help). HCG only works by MIMICKING the LH and FSH cells. using HCG when not needed will desensitize your leydig cells (possibly permanently). There is a study if I can find it again, that shows that your FSH and LH actually kick back in after a few weeks on cycle and after certain periods of time which is different for everybody.

kwabby6's picture

lol will do. I know for a fact HCG is not a necessity to have on an only test cycle for that amount of time.

muscley's picture

I only ordered the HCG because it's recommended in the beginners cycle posted in the sticky in this same forum. And actually I got some pretty quick shrinkage when I was taking Dbol.
Also, how is not shrinkage expected from 500mg Test E weekly. In my mind that's double the testosterone a normal man produces. Is it not?

kwabby6's picture

because it doesn't necessarily matter how much test your taking in. So say for instance, if you are taking just enough to shut you down and your nuts dont shrink, then its not like they are gonna shrink anymore if you dump a gram into your system. shutdown is shutdown. you might have gotten the quick shrinkage from the quick rush of androgens from dbol into your system

kwabby6's picture

lol thank you! theres alot of misinformation being posted and im gonna try my best to clear it up

kwabby6's picture

its because its not based on the amount you are taking, its based on the duration of being on cycle and 10-12 weeks of strictly test (minus the dbol) usually isn't enough to cause shrinkage

muscley's picture

I swear, they got smaller from DBol then back to their original size only this week.

muscley's picture

My sex drive is great I would say. Now that you say it, have I noticed it getting back to normal in the last week? I don't know. Too soon to tell.

What's funny is that I started seeing changes in my testicles starting day 1 on Dbol: first they got "tighter" (sitting higher than normally). Then after a couple of weeks they got slightly smaller.

muscley's picture

Nope, no acne or backne even though I thought I would be prone to it. I used to get backne surges in my youth just from training and dieting.