Is there any part of the HPTA axis that detects test?
I've been reading my ass off on PCT, and the HPTA axis.
I have not found any mention of the way that the body detects test levels, other than checking estro levels.
I'm trying to understand why you can not start PCT with elevated test levels. It would appear that as long as you keep estro levels down, and interrupt estro's signal by using serms, that you should be able to increase LH hormone output, and natty test production even with elevated test levels.
I also think that may be why we are able to start a successful PCT before reaching the terminal halflife of the compound we are running.
Take TEst E for example, half life is supposed to be 7 days. There is a rule of halflifes that it should take 5 halflifes to get down to near zero levels. That would mean that it would take 35 days to clear your body of extra Test E, yet we routinlely start PCT at 14 days, We should still have substantially elevated test levels at the 14 day mark.
Guru's, can you help me wrap my head around this?
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Estrogen is just one of several pathways that the body uses to shut down. The thing to remember is that the body is a perfect machine and will always try to maintain Homeostasis are balance. When it senses something is high whether estrogen or testosterone it will react and counter it. When androgen levels are high in the blood as from endogenous use of testosterone or other steroids GnRH ( Gonadotropin-releasing hormone it's also called (LHRH) ) is suppressed. GnRH is produced by the hypothalamus. It stimulates the pituitary gland to produce luteinizing hormone (LH) and, to a lesser extent, follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH). Since the excess Testosterone or other steroids suppresses GnRH it in turn keeps it from signaling the pituitary to produce LH and FSH which then shuts down the leydig cells from producing Natural Testosterone. It's a very complex system and there are other ways that you can shut down but those are the 2 main ways estrogen and excess androgens cause it. If you don't let levels drop before PCT it will fail due to this feedback. Hope this makes sense to you CBBurrr.
Let me help you out if you had a test level of 4200 on your last injection. At 1 wk it would be at 2100 and at 2 wks it would be 1050.( just keep in mind it vares from person to person) You trying to get your test levels to natural upper levels of a healthy person before you start PCT. Of course from the suppression of the leydig cells which you are trying to bring back to life by PCT your test levels will fall even further but the body isn't fighting against it as hard as when you were at 4200 level or 2100 level. 1 wk into PCT your levels have fallen even further 550 and now we are trying to control estrogen to prevent shut down hence the AI and Nolva use throughout and also get natural production pumping which is what our SERMS will do.
great summary Mega!
I've seen PCT calculators, as well as some guru's from other forums suggest you needed to wait until all of the extra test was out of your system before PCT. AS you stated above, we just need to wait until levels drop to that of a healthy male. By the time our PCT drugs really kick in, we'll be on the low side with Test around 500 or so.
This makes for fascinating reading on a saturday afternoon. Thanks for your input, you have taught me quite a bit over the last few months.
The hypothalamus can detect both Test and Estrogen. Its the combination of the 2 controls how much GnRH is released. In PCT you will already have low Test so inhibiting the negative feed-back loop from detecting estro makes the Hypothalamus sense the body is hormonally deficient and begins to secrete GnRH to the Pituitary that triggers LH and FSH to be secreted that then travels to the Leydig cells in the testes to make testosterone.
SO back to the original question. If you were to take serms while on cycle the Hypothalamus will still read high Test levels and not produce GnRH.
This is my current understanding of it.
Here are a couple reads:
http://www.steroidal.com/testosterone/low-testosterone/
http://geekymedics.com/2011/02/27/how-the-gonadal-axis-works/
thanks for the links, crazymofo.
I hadn't come across any reference to the hypothalamus detecting test.... just estro. I'll read up.
The first link was very informative and explained it well. I think because I was reading articles about PCT, they focused on the negative feed back of estro and not test.
I did read somewhere that estrogen is 200 times as suppressive as test, I guess that means it has a far greater influence on the negative feed back loop.
I'm also getting the idea that we don't have to wait for test levels to be low before PCT can work, they just have to be in the range that won't cause negative feedback. Since guys with low T using clomid can get their levels up to 700 or so, that would suggest that PCT can be effective when blood serum levels are in that 700 range.
+1 for a great link.