+ 12 Proviron as a bridge - lab results after 7 weeks
As some of you know by reviewing my log (http://www.eroids.com/forum/steroids-qa/pct-anti-estrogens/proviron-in-p...), I began running Proviron at 25mg/day during week 3 of my pct then continued it as a bridge for 7 weeks so far. I'm now 10 weeks out past my last injection. (You can also view the cycle I ran at: http://www.eroids.com/cycle_logs/8th-cycle-4th-in-the-past-3-years-sust-...)
I never ran Proviron before and was concerned whether it would shut me down; some people said it would, others said it wouldn't so I put it to the test. While my bridge was good and I felt better than I had 10 weeks after ending a cycle (see log), unfortunately, my labs didn't turn out the way I had hoped. As you will see, my LH & FSH levels are about as low as can be, .01 & .02 respectively. Test level is only 204. The one positive was my free test, which is at the higher end of normal, 22.5. This is also higher than where I'm normally at off cycle.
While I can't say with absolute certainty that it was the Proviron that shut me down or if it's because I have yet to recover, my levels have never been this low 10 weeks out. During my last few PCTs over the last 3 or 4 years, my test level typically recovers to between 400-500 and my LH & FSH levels generally recover to around the midpoint of normal.
With that said, I have a few questions for the vets:
- What's my next step? Attempt a kickstart with a HCG protocol? If so, what do you recommend?
- Simply give my body more time and hope I recover (which I am not at all opposed to)
- I'm almost 39 - do I consider TRT? While I realize this will be inevitable for me at some point, I prefer to avoid it for as long as I can
- Something else not listed above
I never go back on until my levels have recovered, so I'll be on the sidelines for a while longer. I'm really disappointed with these results so any feedback you all can provide is appreciated very much.
Thanks!
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The only thing I have ever ran during pct that didn't cause suppression was Ostarine at low dose like 3-5mg. Best way for me anyways to stay anabolic and keep gains for bridge hands down.
There is conflicting reports of proviron causing suppression or not. Here's what I think. Your body uses hormones FSH and LH to send signals that result in increased testosterone. FREE test is really what matters most. You can have very high total test but normal free test.
Also if your free test is high, it's unlikely your body will continue to release LH and FSH. Even if your total test is low, since your free test is high, LH and FSH will be low. Now there's not much excess test meaning your body will soon need to raise LH and FSH to maintain the high free test. In other words, if you continued this proviron experiment, that would tell us what happens when all the free test is used up and whether your body decides to increase fsh and LH, or not.
Others below said it might be a good idea to fully recover first, then see if proviron shuts them down. This is a good idea because it's possible since your body had high levels of androgens during cycle, the proviron was enough external androgen to maintain suppression. However you aren't necessarily shut down based off these results, hence the high free test and the fact you aren't experiencing symptoms of Low T.
Look let's pretend you are off cycle and have naturally high test both free and total. If this is the case your body will stop releasing FSH and LH. That doesn't mean you are "shut down" it means your body temporarily doesnt need to continue to release FSH and LH.
You are not shut down.
Your body senses it no longer needs to produce extra LH and FSH, because if it did then your free test would be really really high and your total test would likely be normal. I would say you are somewhat suppressed but not shut down by any means. I predict if you continued treatment for another month or 2 your free test would be the same but total test might be 100-200 points higher and LH/FSH would likely be low as well.
Thank you sir. All valid points. You may be right about my total test elevating if I remained on the provi for a while longer; I just don't want to risk it and and remain suppressed any longer. I'm a few days into another round of pct and will post up bloods to inform everyone how this turns out, if anyone is interested. Thanks again for your feedback!
AnonWell all I can say is why would you tempt fate? I've seen the talk about it. I stay out of it cuz there's no arguing with some people. In the end if you're not a TRT guy why in the world would anyone tempt fate. I know right now the meal of the day is "Experimenting" with AAS but there's been plenty of old school cats that already did the experimenting. My personal opinion is experiments only fuck you up. Ain't nobody on this website inventing anything in the medicine world. If anyone here was that intelligent they're crazy for being here instead of the world stage making millions off of their experiments.
If you're taking anything that would even cast a shadow of a doubt at a full reboot during your PCT, in your mind you've already made the decision to be a lifelong TRT guy. Perhaps you just haven't admitted it to yourself yet.
PowerPCT by Dr Scally. If that doesn't work you need to go see your Dr and make the plunge brother. TRT saved my life. It is a tough pill to swallow though but once you do you'll understand why it was the right thing.
Thanks for your feedback Carlos but I wouldn't call this an experiment; it was more a calculated risk. It was only after extensive research, which included feedback from vets both here and who I know elsewhere, that I decided to move forward. It was a choice I made for me but also one I knew would help others in the community as this question comes up frequently. With that said, I remain unconvinced 25mg proviron was to blame for my shutdown for reasons mentioned below. No, I'm not a trt guy and would like to prolong being one as long as possible, which was a primary reason I kept the dose so low. The goal of this post was not to sway others one way or another; it was simply to help them make a more informed decision if and when they do. If you have additional quantitative information that will add additional value to this topic, please feel free to share it. Your knowledge is respected and appreciated. Thanks again brother.
AnonMy take on it is what was to be gained out of the experiment to begin with? What was the desired goal? Medically I see no reason to try it. I'm all for trying new things out and pushing the envelope. But really what stands to be gained from the risk? I mean even with poor results you aren't even considering it was a bad idea. Not trying to be a dick but I have yet to see anybody bring up these points.
But hey I got ur drift bro. I have to admit that's a damn polite way of saying kick rocks:)
Great question; to clarify, the goal was to preserve more of my gains after pct. Like many of us, our natural levels tend to rebound to lower levels after pct as we age. In my experience, this has hindered my ability to keep more of my gains. Rather than opt for trt, I wanted to see how my body would respond to provi as a bridge. I wouldnt classify this as pushing the envelope; I'd say its more of a stop gap before having to go trt at some point. Im not ignoring my results; I obviously hoped for a different outcome. All im saying is that Megat883 raised a very interesting point that maybe I wasnt fully recovered before beginning proviron. In hindsight, I wish I ran bloods after pct and be for running the provi. If I did so, I'd feel my confident in concluding it was proviron that shut be down. I know youre not being a dick and you provide tremendous value to the community. To answer your question about the potential benefit, I was hoping to retain more of my gains (which I absolutely did) and have no adverse impact to my natural production. This, in my opinion, is still inconclusive at this point. Thanks again for your feedback Carlos. And thanks for the compliment :-) I'm not here to be a dick. I'm here to learn and add value when I can. Hopefully I did a little bit of both in this case.
AnonSo what I'm gathering here help me if I'm wrong guys that proviron during pct/bridge will shut you down? Thanks for the test bro. +1
Give them a vote if you find it helpful.PermalinkThe more megat and I discussed it, the more uncertain I am. I would like to see someone run provi as a bridge but only do so after pct and after they run bloods to confirm they have recovered. If they someone were to do this, run bloods during or immediately following the bridge, and have the bloods come back that they too are shut down, we can conclude it was the provi that shut them down. Anyone care to be the next guinea pig???
AnonYa man me and you have spoke about this several times when you were running your log. I was so close to running Proviron in my pct and as a bridge up until my next cycle but I'm glad that u didn't because it looks like it definitely hindered your recovery. You age could be a factor as well couldn't it? Maybe your just not able to recover after PCT like once before. Idk man just brainstorming and trying to throw ideas out there
Absolutely, I considered age could be a factor. Throughout the years, my levels have recovered but the trend has always been a little less as the years went on. I'm on day 3 on another round of pct and if I recover, I'll lean toward what MegaT883 mentioned; running provi during pct may have been too soon because I may not allowed myself to fully recover. I'd love to see someone else do as I mentioned- use provi as a bridge after pct and after bloods prove they've recovered. I may do it but it's going to be a while before I get to that point. It would be great to see someone not on TRT who is finishing up PCT now step up and continue this experiment lol
I did run it ED for the first four weeks of PCT, and a couple times a week up til the other day when you posted this. I am stopping now but will be getting bloods in just over two weeks. If the proviron is a problem my bloods should show it.
Fr sent... please let me know how your bloods turn out. Thanks ice!
That's what we are not sure about. Was it the proviron are was it from the cycle causing no reboot right after pct. The other thing is that there are other members who take proviron off cycle while producing natural and do not have any shut down of LH or FSH. There are also numerous pub. Meds showing that to be a fact under 100 mg day.
AnonYea man I hate that there is such mixed opinions on proviron in regards to shutting you down. I just finished pct on Monday and was gonna begin to start proviron at 50 mgs a day as a bridge but I'm glad I decided against it after seeing this test.
UFOWow brother, thank you for taking the time to do this study on a highly controversial subject!! It always seemed to good to be true with provi being OK off cycle...
No problem! Also see my response to loose cannon....while im sure this information is valuable, I think there's still more work to be done before we can come to a more definitive conclusion.
AnonThe proviron will only free up as much test as it can When your production is already low
250 Iu hcg on mon and thur
Not sure if provi shut you down or if its your age and production is dropping
Hard to say for sure
Thanks monstar! Your first point speaks to what megat883 said below... maybe I wasn't recovered before I began the proviron? Makes me wonder if my results would have been different had I run bloods first to determine if I recovered, then begun the provi.
I just started another round of pct to see if I can get my natural production going again. While I've never had an issue before, I am approaching 39 so age may be starting to play a factor.
Sounds like you might have another experiment to try sometime.
Someone does... care to be the next guinea pig lol
No go for me. I'm unfortunately on TRT.
Yeah, guess that rules you out!
Would of never thought. We always focus on Total test or test serum but the fact remains that it's free test that interacts with receptors and your at 22.5 so your going to feel ok as if would a person with serum levels at 700+ would feel. Free test is what does the work. Would love to see what your free test % is. You need a run of HCG to get cranking again. You having any weight loss since you finished the cycle 10wks ago?
Thanks for your feedback. I've only dropped 3 lbs on the scale but if I had to guess, I probably also lost a few lbs of muscle and gained a proportionate amount of fat. Not much, probably 1-3 lbs max. Already started the HCG last night. This is why I always have ancillaries on hand... never know when you may need them!
You experiment proved somethings. Was the low LH FSH from the proviron or no reboot. That the theories are posts we read that says proviron will only raise free test while using exogenous testosterone are accurate. You were shut down at 204 serum yet your free test levels were at 22.5 and max range is 25.1 What would free test be if you had been rebooted and producing natural again. Where would those free test levels fall. Seems like proviron is a viable add on while off cycle.
Meant to say that proviron raising free test on exogenous testosterone only is inaccurate. It will raise it while on natural production.
Mega - thanks again for all the insight you provided me via PM. It's much appreciated! Our conversations have really got me thinking - was starting the proviron during PCT too soon? Should I have allowed me to fully recover, run bloods to confirm, and then begin the proviron? Your point above is well taken; maybe I didn't allow enough time for a reboot?
My results far from conclusively determine if it was the 25mgs of provi that shut me down. Maybe a slight variation in the protocol would yield different results? I'd love to see someone else do just that; use provi as a bridge only after bloods confirm LH, FSH, & Test levels have recovered to normal levels.
Another thought, what if your PCT meds were bunk and you never restarted? I used pharma grade PCT and proviron this last cycle, I will be off of proviron completely for over 3 weeks when I get bloods. If I am still shut down or significantly lower than my last post PCT bloods we will have a pattern.
That's a good thought but highly unlikely in this case because I used the same pct gear that I used in a pct earlier in the year. I had bloods run then and everything was normal. Thanks for your feedback Ice
what are your side effects? Do you feel normal or like you have low test? Your free test is normal, the LH and FSH have very little to do other than sex drive which might be ok since you are on proviron.
You are clearly suppressed though
Aside from a bit of hair loss and complete suppression... none lol. I've feel good; I've had no signs of low t at all. Just started another round of pct... time to recover
Your total test is suppressed but your free test is in the high-normal range. So I would be curious as well to what side effects you might be experiencing. I think that the free test is the more important number here since that is the test that actually goes to work in our body and you are on the high end of normal so I wouldn't think you would be experiencing symptoms of low T.
I have to agree with you... I have no symptoms of low t at all. As I mentioned on my log, this is the best I've felt 10 weeks after i ended a cycle. In fact, I had sex just last night and had no issues whatsoever.
The only side effect I had was a bit of hair loss. Well, that, plus the fact that im currently shut down!
Thanks for your feedback!
Nice bro. This is exactly what I was looking for. Sorry that you had to be a guinea pig on this one. +2 for helping everyone out.
Glad to help Ed! While I was hoping for a different outcome, I understood this was a possibility. Hopefully a few others will benefit from this.
Hey dbombs .. sent you a FR ... thanks! +1
Accepted
Sorry to see the test results brotha, I was shut down after a cycle and ran a protocol suggested by muta and was able to fully recover, here is the link for it, hope it helps! http://www.eroids.com/pics/muta-miracle
Thanks bud! Muta's recommendation is very similar to the standard PCT I usually run. I have enormous respect for Muta's knowledge.
Thanks for your feedback!
Well, at least you know the provi was legit. It really helped to free up the testosterone you did have in your system. Sucks that you are still shut down. Get some clomid to help get your LH and FSH levels boosted to get your natty production back in gear.
Yes it was... had a bit of hair loss too.
Just got some advice from Zewi, which I'm sure is on point - started HCG tonight... will begin clomid and nolva 3 days following my last HCG shot. Will also use 6.25mg of Aroma e3d while I'm on the clomid and nolva.
shoot me a message pal, i have a little advice for you as well
Hey bud. Message sent. Thanks!
AnonThabls for your service and taking the time out to do the testing. +2
Thank you sir; just wish the results were more positive. I know several members were considering this
Anondid you consider running the privion at 50 or 75 mg?
I did but after my hair started to fall out, I decided to keep the dose at 25mg/day. Had my blood work come back positive, I was going to run proviron again as a bridge but upped the dosing to 25mg twice a day.
+1 for sharing mate. Shame about the results, I had hoped to see a much better outcome.