posted Wed, 05/18/2022 - 08:19
1892
+ 4 MID CYCLE LABS
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About 11wks in. 600mg Test Cyp, 600mg EQ, 50mg Anadrol (was running 200mg Dhb but stopped 2wks prior to labs being done)
Last injection was Friday, blood drawn Monday morning. My test levels never come back the greatest, compared to some of the other lab work I see on here. I'm wondering if maybe switching to test e would be any benefit to me? And would I be able to change between the two without my levels dropping ?
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Are you taking any liver and kidney protection? I wouldn't say your levels are crazy out of range considering you're mid cycle and crushing weights but it's always a good idea to take preventative measures.
Also try to increase your water intake to help flush them kidneys.
TE/TC probably won't make much of a difference. You should check your free to see what else is floating around in there.
People's test levels are not based on how many mgs that each person takes, per say. It's all GENETIC!!! You could take 600mg and have 2500 and someone else could take 500mg and have 3300. It's just genetics.
Also taking test E and Test C are virtually the same thing. One will not necessarily give you a better number than another at the same dose. They are both about the same in terms of a half life, and that is all that the different esters mean/dose. If you have Test E you can always switch and see if your genetics might possibly react better to E than it does C, you won't need to change the dose, but it would be fun to see if your genetics likes 1 over the other better. When/if you do switch don't change the dose, bc if you do the experiment would not have valid results. Then retest in about 4 weeks so the test e has a chance to fully be working and have yourbblood levels at a stable peak level. It would be fun to see what your test numbers were. One other problem is that with underground gear, you never fully ever know the exact mg/ml dose. It will still be a fun experiment. Let us know your results and enjoy the ride!!!
If its all based on Genetics, doesn't that mean someone could take a very good Test E that is not under dosed and because of their poor genetics it could give a low blood reading and therefore people would assume the gear is bad?
Actually, yes! Personally, I can take superficial doses and sky rocket but I met my bizzaro at one point.
This guy couldn't get his total over the mid 300s, no matter what he took. TE/TC/TP/ something about his body just didn't respond to Testosterone. I personally don't understand why, he was a buddy of mine, he was using pharma prescribed and I even gave him some of OSGear's test which I was using at the time at about 125mg and getting in to the mid upper range so I knew it was good. I dosed him myself and he ran his blood 3 days later. Still baseline, we raised the dosage and tried again, still baseline. I can't remember if his free test was elevating or not, it's been a while. I had suggested he talk to a good endo because something was clearly wrong inside his body. I've heard of it happening to other people but I've only met that one. Hopefully he figured that shit out, kinda bugs me that we (or at least I) never found the cause.
Yea you may be on to something, it's strange cause I can use a lab tested 300mg test and literally it feels like 500mg. At least my body responds like it is. It's the truth whether believed or not. It's just so strange man. But I haven't met anyone that just didn't respond to test at all.
That's really interesting mate
Is it just that people can have really bad/low responding receptors or is it something to do with blood quality I wonder?
RustyhookerGet that liv 52 etc running. Hydrate too.
You really can't compare your results to the results of others. Everyone utilizes the test at different rates. If this is what you normally pull on 600mg then the world is right. I have seen some people over 4K on 600mg and others about where you are. Test e and test c are basically the same. Switching isn't going to change anything. You can switch if you want if that gives you peace of mind, but there isn't going to be any difference. You won't lose anything in terms of gains since they are interchangeable. I wouldn't be alarmed by liver values. Just lifting weights everyday puts mine at top of range and slightly over without any orals. Everything looks pretty typical for someone running a cycle.
WannagethugerAwesome sir. Thank you for the advice.
Yeesh man lot to unpack here, switching esters will have no impact. It will make it worse to switch to Enanthate from Cypionate is a shorter ester and cause more blood fluctuations because you are probably injecting 2x a week. AST and ALT can be elevated from training, try and take 3 days off the gym before pulling liver values. But with the adrol it looks like your liver is under stress. The BUN is really worrying honestly, BUN that high means you are putting your kidney under significant stress (dehydration could be a factor but usually RBC/Hemo is high too). Probably from multiple factors including your diet but EQ has been linked to renal toxicity, I know guys on here will jump to its defense but it is what it is. Also blood glucose at 97 tells me you are not eating any sort of diet. If you were my client and this mid cycle blood work came back I would discounting cycle immediately and put you on a cruise and a cut. Good luck brother!
Here's an interesting question for you or Ghost - Do the solvents in Steroid oils such as Carrier oils, BA or BB affect the kidneys and their filters badly? As ultimately they will be removing these from the bloodstream all day every day
Read my mind brother, Ghost and I compiling topics to cover and one is Solvents. BB and BA to my knowledge are safe but I was looking at like EO, PEG and others. Right now I got no answers but stay tuned I am committed to creating this post on kidney health, too many people I've known stopped BB because of renal health.
BUN that high means significant stress? According to? Could it not just be protein intake potentially? Did you ask that question?
Glucose 97… was he fasting? Did you ask that?
Questions that need to be answered before you jump to conclusions with your medical degree and disagree with his doc completely
Pretty sure I said that this was just my two cents buddy, never said it was anything more. Yes an extreme high protein diet could be factor, I'm sure he would of mentioned that, also there is a lot of other reasons bun could be elevated besides high protein are you saying you know doc? The fact of the matter is urea is not being filtered by the kidney, chronically. You think that's okay, I would not allow that with a client, that's my opinion. I would make him see a nephrologist, again my opinion. Too many people I've known had to stop BB because of kidneys. Maybe do I error on the side of health? Sure, why would you try and shoot that down? This guy is looking for a reason to keep pushing and you just gave him one. Hope you are right.
RustyhookerBun will be elevated even on low protein diet because muscle breakdown during gym session.
I've had normal bun and high as fk ast/alt from over training and muscle damage, my cpk and myo were also very high. To really know if it's exercised induced is to check ggt, cpk, and MYOGLOBIN . If high cpk high, MYOGLOBIN high, ggt normal it's muscle damage.
RustyhookerAll the factor play in for sure. And if you dig thru forums, the numbers of eroids members kept in the hospital simply because BUN too high.....it might open some eyes. Dr holding a patient over something we see daily to me says a lot. Get the bigger picture. And that bigger picture might be that persons 'norm'.
You air on the side of caution which I think is great, tbh. But you also don’t know how to read/interpret labs or ask the right questions. Never assume a patient/client is going to give you all the info you need. You gotta ask for it. You’d be surprised they have no idea what is/isn’t important. That’s why providers/coaches need to know what to ask.
If his Creatinine was elevated and GFR was tanking absolutely a nephrologist may need to come into the picture but even then the right questions need to be asked and he needs to be redirected to a medical professional.
I got a long list of big healthy dudes including myself that would disagree with your hasty conclusion buddy. Talking down to people will never get your point across especially if you are trying to "educate" them.
I gave you a compliment, and pointed out a simple flaw. Educate yourself more. Get a cert or a degree. I went to school for a long time and have been practicing medicine for years.
It is crazy how many doctors there are on steroid forums! What are the odds? Got some real napoleon angry vibes bro, because I did not ask if he was fasted lol I am done, hope you are right, his health is the wager not mine or yours.
I’m not angry. A little frustrated, sure. But it is a forum. If you’re a coach with clients I don’t know what your education or credentials or background is but maybe you know more about biomechanics or programming with periodization or nutrient timing than I do idk. I just know I know more about labs/diagnostics and medicine because well that’s what I do and that’s my education. But I’ll ask BFG for a tag or something if I can send him my credentials. Just for you.
Honestly I believe you, but you gotta work on your bedside manner, you see my comment, yes I did assume some things and there was a fair bit of conjecture. But you see that I am a coach and that I at least have a couple brain cells and more importantly Have influence on other athletes, that was an opportunity for you to educate. Read your last sentence of your first response, that immediately put me on the defensive. Then it just turned into a pissing contest culminating into you telling me that I don't know how to interpret blood values, which even if it is true you can't just tell someone that and then expect them to be in a position to learn from you. If you would have just deleted the second part of your first comment I would have responded a lot differently with a more open mind because everything you said is valid points. You see what I'm getting at?
I can take the construction criticism and work on my bedside manner going back and looking at my initial comment. I appreciate that.
And I will continue to learn more about bloodwork interpretation. And think more before I type, and be more concise with medical language.
Feel free to FR/PM me any time. I really do enjoy educating. BUN can be elevated in a lot of scenarios, and it’s mainly other factors that go in to ruling in or out true kidney disease.
One thing that was important in this scenario is the patients history that it has always been higher and this was one of his lowest readings. His doctor wasn’t concerned. And the other variables were normal. But again we needed more info. More questions.
WOw you guy's really know what you are talking about when it comes to all this stuff!! I am quite good at reading all the Liver readings after going into A&E with very high ALT and AST/low albumin years ago from staying on toxic compounds for too long with no protection, but when it concerns Kidneys I am a beginner. Are kidney readings such as Creatinine, Creatine Kinase, GFR and Urine protein levels similar to liver readings in that when they are done say 12 hours after something like a big deadlift session they will be way out of whack? I ask as my creatinine and creatine kinase levels were huge in a similar situation and had to go back a several days later to make sure they had subsided or they were convinced I was in Chronic Kidney disease territory? Thankfully they did lol
EDIT: From what I have been reading it looks like they are quite a bit. Creatinine levels rise just by supplementing with creatine itself, working out also increases it because the body uses more of its own to create ATP in training. Even injecting close to bloods being drawn causes it to increase due to increased muscle damage and breakdown. Also eGFR isn't an actual measured reading - its an estimated reading based on creatinine levels, age, race and sex so this isn't a value that constantly declines but actually increases if creatinine levels are lowered which can be done by cutting down on various things. It really does seem to get accurate bloods training needs to be stopped for a full week or 2 before they are drawn otherwise virtually every reading as far as liver and kidney health are concerned is heavily distorted.
Are you aware of any supplements that can help with kidney health other than drinking a lot of water? I can't seem to find anything really unlike Liver which there are many you can take.
Hey Brother, creatinine levels can* rise from creatine use in those who are susceptible but in the more controlled studies on creatine I’ve seen it is safe for the general pop.
You are right about eGFR. It is based on several things which I believe I noted somewhere earlier in here. And is just the first marker to look at for signs of declining kidney health. It CAN go back up after being acutely declined. However, you have stages of chronic disease as well. Which is of course different.
To my knowledge (which is admittedly minimal in this realm of medicine) there are no great studies on supplements to support the kidneys after AKI other than gentle dehydration and removing any offending agents or lifestyle choices that would have caused the harm in the first place.
Once you are in CKD then there are medications that are implemented to prevent advancement. ACE inhibitors. ARBs. For example. As well as several other lifestyle Modifications. HanginLow and I will include this in our write up once we get to it. But I do not believe (don’t quote me on this) there were any prospective cohort studies done on implementing these medications earlier and showing that they may have prevented disease states of the kidneys. Except in the case of people who already have Diabetes Type 2. That is well documented.
Cheers for all this buddy, you know in something I was reading this morning they are now saying they are getting findings that long term use of ACE inhibitors might actually be detrimental to kidney health but they need to do more studies to quantify this. I tried some Lisinopril a few days ago but it made me feel quite off and light headed. Then found some Bisoprolol beta blockers I had from a few years ago and just 2.5mg worked a treat on BP - dropped it about 25 to 30 points on the top level and 20 on the bottom. Its something I have been neglecting for a long time my BP in all honesty. I read that the Bisoprolol can reduce cardio activity by 30% but I did a deadlift session on it and felt great! No reduction or breathlessness at all and in fact felt much better as my heart was not about to explode out of my chest lol Got my wind back much sooner after sets too. I too saw that Type 2 Diabetes has quite an effect on findings with CKD.
Hello brother, Thanks for your comments. Yes everything you are saying is true. Creatinine is a poor predictor of kidney health in BB because of the reasons above; higher muscle mass, creatine use and elevations due to training. This is why the Cystatin C derived GFR test is more accurate for assessing kidney function in bodybuilders.
My protocol for blood draws is 3 days off no training, they train last time on Thursday and then just wait to give blood Monday morning fasted of course. I do think a longer period of no training would give you more accurate results but you try telling BB to stay out of the gym for a week is impossible. I find training really skews liver values most, I had a new guy just come to me with alt/ast both 120s, when I asked him when he trained he said he did legs before giving blood. I make him retest with protocol above and enzymes are within range 30-40.
For supplements I would research Astralagus Root, look up Dante Trudel and his opinion on it. Also google "renal protection curcumin". But monitoring BP is really the best prevention, I hope this helped brother.
Hi Mate
I can just about manage 3 days rest before a draw but I too know 1 week just ain't gonna happen and I'll probably give in the damn night before the draw!! lol I am going to look up Astralagus root and curcumin after this, I think the main problem is that the kidneys have no regeneration capabilities do they unlike the liver which is constantly losing cells and forming new ones. I wonder if these new Robotic kidneys will happen in our lifetime? It seems like it would be a fairly easy thing to live with and create as its basically just a filtering device isn't it. Thankyou for all your help bud :-)
Thank you my friend,
How common is it to have an elevation of BUN chronically like that? Is that not a biomarker of "stress" like the kidney is in fact not functioning optimally by clearing urea and other toxins? or is that individual dependent and based on other biomarkers? I feel like my initial reaction was because I almost never see BUN that high, all anecdotal bloods of me and my clients but still. Very alarming but like you said creatinine is higher normal side but very in range, so an elevation in both creatinine and bun would of made you more concerned?
My specialty isn’t nephrology, which imo they are some the most impressively knowledgeable physicians there are (and I'm a mid level provider). Because when you truly know that pathophysiology to T you really know the body.
I’ve seen a lot of labs over the years and particularly with athletes. Chronically elevated BUN by itself is typically indicative of higher protein diet and/or dehydration prior to blood draw. Im not sure if there is evidence about it being indicative of a “stress” bio marker as you mentioned when monitored over time if it is independently elevated without other markers showing signs of true kidney disease.
I think a lot of the time even though we have these assay’s of what is within a normal range we have to think of it as a bell curve. We are going to have some outliers.
An acute elevation of creatinine is an indication of AKI (acute kidney injury) regardless of BUN, but BUN can give more information as well as ratio as to why the creatinine may be elevated. And GFR is the big important marker as to how well the kidney is functioning. Staging kidney disease over the long term.
For example I had a woman come into the office the other day, no one ever mentioned her GFR to her (48) which had slowly been declining over the years. Creatinine had been chronically elevated and BUN upper end of normal. She has Stage 3a kidney disease.
Good info here. I see a lot of elevated creatinine especially when clients first come to me. I remember reading GFR is more correlated with kidney health the lower it gets, but I do see it disregarded like you said because the range is pretty big. I also like to add a protein screen for urine, as I find that catches a lot of problems before it starts. And after higher oxidative stress phases I like to recommend adding Cystatin C test to the panel which is much more expensive but applicable to BB and from my understanding, the gold standard kidney test and done at least one time a year. The elevated creatinine over time is a good point for me to absorb as an acute elevation just means damage but when that number won't come down is that when you would worry?
I recommend 2-4g of Astralagus root, 1.5-2gallons of water (hot state), controlled potassium/sodium/magnesium ratios and 500mg curcumin daily for Kidney support. I like moderate protein other than during contest prep. I am of the school of Victor Black and I am not a fan of EQ, almost everyone looks and feels better on primo/test IMO but that's another can of worms. What is your opinion on EQ and renal health? What else could I be doing to help my clients with renal health ?
With creatinine it is absolutely proportionally to muscle mass as well. The more muscle mass we carry the larger that number is going to get over time. And may or may not be indicative of kidney disease, another reason why looking at GFR is important. How much strain is that putting in the kidneys? And So a lot of things go into a GFR calculation. Age. Gender. Race even. Oh man, I remember Cystastin C from back in school but honestly I never see it used clinically. Like ever. Probably because it is really expensive? It’s and it’s just (as far as I know, don’t quote me) another indicator of the GFR. Through the urine. But urine screen is important with advanced kidney disease that’s already established to look at other things. Another topic though. I honestly don’t think it’s a gold standard test? Or maybe I would see it more? But, again nephrology is not my primary field so don’t quote me. It could have more utility than I'm giving it.
And with the creatinine being elevated just depends again on other factors. What else is elevated. Is that the only thing? Maybe it’s just due to sheer muscle mass. Less concerning that it elevated. But if it’s elevated and the GFR is continuing to decline definitely concerning.
I have seen a few case study reports on boldenone causing weird pathological changes in the kidneys. I can’t remember exactly what disease state it resembled but it was something weird and I was stumped. Definitely made me question running the compound even though it was just a few case studies (individual reports). And actually I have not run it since. But that being said, there are far more reports of oral androgens causing fatty tumors in the liver, etc. than I think there are of EQ causing kidney issues. Nonetheless. We just have to take care of ourselves ultimately and monitor our health.
You’re doing it right now brother. Trying to learn and educate yourself. Encourage lab work quarterly. During their off season. During their preps. Check their electrolytes. Make sure they’re staying up on their water and NA/K intake. Not abusing diuretics. Etc.
From my understanding the cystatin C test is a GFR that is calculated with the protein cystatin instead of creatinine. I am not sure if is blood and urine but I have only seen it offered as a blood test. Cystatin is widely believed to not be affected by muscle mass and therefore the gold standard for testing kidney function in bodybuilders, that was the context of me referring to it as the gold standard because like you said I have no idea if it is used clinically by nephrologists or whatever. I learned about it on the John Jewett website, also Leo and Longevity. I have gotten the test done twice now, and had many clients (I would be happy to send you bloods) it is readily available from the bloodwork website I use for $75. Which sounds cheap but I am lucky to get most these guys in for bloodwork 1x a year and then they always complain about the price but never complain about price when they get their precontest cycle which overall is probably 3-4x more expensive lol I digress
glad you agree on EQ it was a easy choice for me, with the implication to possible renal interactions and the fact it gives me weird ass anxiety / paranoia. I know some guys swear by it thought they say they grow best on it, IDK again what does it do that test/primo cant, raise RBCs? thats already a problem most the time from androgen induced erythropoiesis
maybe you or I could do a post using this information to help some of the guys out, kidneys might be the #1 reason bodybuilders retire early IMO thank you for all this info
$75 is cheap that’s not bad at all. I’ll do more research on this myself. Personally I really like John I think he’s done great at educating himself and he is an RD I believe so I think he is very capable at reading the research. I do also think he’s a bit of a nit picker. For instance, his stance on clen. I’m still
Not a fan as I’m seen more negative evidence on it than I have positive. I think he’s quoted one or two smaller positive studies and uses that to endorse its use. Nonetheless he puts out a lot of great info still. And I follow him.
As far as EQ raising EPO more than other Anabolics I’m pretty sure the verdict is still out? Not positive on this. But in general I agree I would avoid it @dwayne44. I think Test/Primo are far safer compounds and you’re absolutely going to reach your goals with those and solid training/diet in place. I also utilize low dose Proviron to help free up that test.
I really like John too, Victor Black was my first prep coach back in the day and taught me a lot of the theories I still use so I wanted to give him credit.
Ghost always keeping me honest, yes I agree I do think the jury is still in the medical community out because I remember reading a study (I would have to dig for it) that showed in head to head nandrolone to be just as potent and increase RBC but I do not remember the context and what animal model it was. But this is where real world evidence shapes your opinion, I have just seen it more with EQ, you see it enough you start to just associate.
Also the context of the drug, it is looked at as a add on during off season, when eating is more sloppy, calories are high, I think that's why I see it with bad bloods as well. Also there are theories online that you needed to "megadose" EQ at 1-2g, absolutely horrible idea, and the high concentration of the drug almost always 300mg/ml and goes up to 500mg/ml (with the use of renal toxic solvents, enter bostin lloyd RIP brother) which is just asking for some dude to do 1cc of test and 1cc of EQ twice a week and have absolute shit results and bloods. I think all these things have shaped my understanding of the drug but since steroid research died in the 70's, we might never see these head to head controlled studies done on bodybuilders and AAS that would give us some hard data. Great points as always friend.
Damn good conversation between u and @Ghost. I like how a simple misunderstanding was handled like true knowledgable gentlemen lol.
I would really like to hear more about this EQ topic that both you speak of. I am curious as I was contemplating running it on next cycle possibly, but if it's harsh on kidneys forget about it lol...anyways again nice convo
Thanks brother, he gave me a lashing and rightly so but he called me a hack and absolutely raised my estradiol through the roof because I consider myself a very healthy conscious coach in an industry of IG transformation hunters and photoshoppers, I digress, ghost is a good dude. I would love to do a full post on kidneys and do a part on EQ with him, here's my opinion:
Don't run that shit, look when you break these steroids down they really do one thing, build muscle, but they have unique properties to each of them, what does EQ do that the others don't do equal or better? Well it will raise RBC/hemo/hematocrit through the roof, now if you are an endurance athlete that might be good, but to the already high RBC inclined BB that's not good (test does this for most people without EQ raising it more). I know some will argue androgen induced erythropoiesis is not bad. But with all the clotting stuff going around, and the fact that the heart has to pump harder with thicker blood, I still think it's a parameter that should be controlled (rbc/hemo/hema that is). That harder pumping heart also is in a extremely anabolic environment and is a muscle, heart enlarges to compensate.. EQ did not pass human trials and it absolutely has been linked to kidney abnormalities as ghost put it, and the RBC issue. Only allowed for vet production, they made a decision on it. It's a shit steroid it's got one of the longest esters, it takes forever to clear and it makes some dudes have tren like anxiety (mechanism unknown bro science). Opt for primo or masteron + test (all passed human trials and were/are used for real ailments; anemia and beast cancer) thanks for hearing my opinion @Ghost anything to add brother
Bro you hit the nail on the head with everything you just said, everything. Lol you broke that shit down. You just covered all the cons and stated facts and I myself, am a knowledgeable guy that's been in da game awhile. So what u said all made sense to me. The main thing is EQ was never approved for human usage like u stated, lol must be a reason for this. Now of course many guys on here love EQ and they have told me how great it is simply because I have always been on the fence in regards to using it.The only thing from it that would interest me is the appetite stimulation as I do not have a huge appetite and getting that protein and calories are a must. However the renal trouble with it isn't worth it, now the question is, are those renal issues from EQ itself or the high blood pressure that comes with EQ which will stress the kidneys? But anyways bro I really do appreciate your opinion, and again you two guys just seem to complement each other I swear lol. Please take him up on that collaboration lol. That would be interesting
The elephant in the room that Ghost and I failed to mention is BP, I think this is the most important factor, especially the higher bodyweight is. Great point here Dwayne and thank you for the kind words. For appetite I like to use MK677, it is a not a good GH replacement but chemically it is the same as GHRP6, which is great during higher calorie phases. MK has to be controlled though because daily use will crank your blood glucose up and create inefficient environment for growth. 10-12.5mg from a good source is unmatched at increases appetite and is a stable in my own diet on high days where I consume 700g of carbs.
Thank u bro. I might have to go with MK677.
It’s some above, but would definitely like to try to find time to collaborate on a post regarding kidney health. FR sent
Anon@HanginLow and @Gh0st awesome convo between you two. A lot of valuable information was just shared, and a great read. I agree with the EQ statements above. I loved it when I ran it as far as strength and mass goes. However the constant anxiety was overwhelming. Not to mention my RBC shot through the roof. Elevating my Hemo and Hematocrit and raising creatinine levels. Even on supps and a lot of daily water intake. Looking forward to your all’s post regarding kidney health!
Thank you my friend, yes unfortunately this is the story I hear regarding EQ too often.
Yea the anxiety with it also worries me. I like to feel good and if anything interferes with that then it has no place in my arsenal. Yea those two guys held a great convo
AnonAgreed! I like to feel good, both while on and off cycle. I’ve used EQ a few times, but have discontinued using it in my stacks as well. I love when members share such powerful knowledge as above, always a great read.
Yessir...ABSOLUTELY