Doss's picture
Doss
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+ 3 High test/tren or Low test/tren...

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I had originally posted this as a reply to someone's thread where they asked for opinions on the topic. But since he had a 'change of heart', edited his topic and removed the question, I'm posting it here. writing this on my phone, so I'll go deeper into it with another thread when I'm near a computer.

High test or low test with tren?

Essentially it boils down to receptor binding and enzyme binding for conversions.

As humans, our bodies strive to achieve constant homeostasis (balance). When the balance is interrupted, a reaction or series of reactions takes place to correct and restore balance.

In the case of AAS, when the brain perceives an excessive amount of something, enzymes and globulins are released to offset the rise. Each does this in its own way. 5a-r binds to and reduces test to DHT. Aromatase binds to and converts to estrogens. SHBG and albumin essentially renders the hormones useless for cellular interactions. Each of these carries its own sides, respectively, and at different degrees depending on levels.

In the case of tren and test, receptors play a big role in what I discussed above. As receptors become occupied, the body begins to recognize the abundance of hormones. As saturation occurs, the perception has shifted from abundance to excessive and a chain of reactions takes place in an attempt to restore the balance, as mentioned above.

Applying all that... Since tren is so highly androgenic, the hormone has a much higher affinity than test to bind with receptors. Tren will beat test there everytime, which in turn leaves more of the test circulating with no where to go. Bringing us back to the beginning; the brain sees the excessive amounts and begins trying to correct with enzes and globulins.

Personally, I like to run my test at a constant 250/wk and let the other compounds do the work. Keeping my prolactin and estrogen in check and the sex drive is unaffected. If i want to cut, I eat and train to cut. If I want to bulk, I eat and train to bulk. Cycle remains the same for the most part.

j223's picture

Honestly I can pretty much cut on same diet as bulking when on tren as long as I eat smaller amounts.

I like test at close to same dose as tren. So somewhere like 500-600mg test and 700-750 tren. Don't forget when all receptors are bound the body synthesizes new ones to compensate so in the long run high test and high tren will bring more results than low test high tren.

As long as AI is at a good dose I don't experience any issues, no anger or emotional issues, my appetite is better on high test, and libido is sky high. Only sides I get from tren is excessive sweating. Only when I slack on my arimidex or prami is when the other sides start to show.

Doss's picture

Don't forget when all receptors are bound the body synthesizes new ones to compensate

I have conflicts with this... I know there's a lot of different opinions on this topic, but I struggle with this one bc, if it were true, then receptor saturation and burn out would not exist. This is something I've experienced myself early on when I was still learning my body, and it is very real.

Physiologically, I know that receptors are part of the living cells in the body. In order for the body to synthesize additional receptors, it must first create new cells or, in the case of muscle tissues, build onto and make them larger.

j223's picture

receptor saturation and burn out would not exist.

Is receptor burn out medically proven? If so I'd love to see studies on it. Because knowing the way the body works it doesn't make sense to me
I'm not saying you are wrong I just do not believe in receptor burn out

Yes tren is 500:500 and test is 100:100 but we both know those numbers don't mean much. Keep in mind turinabol has an androgenic rating of zero... lol

I believe testosterone is the most important anabolic hormones in our body because a certain amount of it is required to sustain tremendous amounts of muscle mass. Without a high dose of testosterone the body can only get so big.

Doss's picture

Because AAS is so controlled, you're not gonna find medical or scientific studies on it. Most of what we do is strictly theory that is validated thru blood work and/or experiences.

The AA ratio doesn't really have anything to do with my point, other than the binding affinity.

Think of all the circulating molecules of hormones as cars driving in a parking lot and the receptors the parking spots. As spots Become available, the cars will slide into place and occupy. Once they are filled up, te cars have no choice but to drive around until one is freed up somewhere. Spots don't just appear for the sake of controlling traffic either. Additional property would have to be squired to make new ones. Eventually, the cars work their way out of the lot bc there was no place to park In time. The store just lost customers bc they were unable to make their way to the door.

j223's picture

Right so how do you know if all receptors are used up and how do you know the body doesn't just synthesize more??

I think there are enough receptors for your body to handle a whole hell of a lot more than 250mg test and 500mg tren. Probably enough for 2 grams of EACH and still leftover receptors that are unbound. Of course this could be where genetics come in to play and it will vary in different people

Doss's picture

this is a highly debatable topic... mainly because the regulations on AAS limit the amount and degrees of research allowed. because of this, there will always be some bro-science, theories, and debates.

you and i can both speculate on the number of receptors in the human body and how much of a given compound they are able to assimilate over a given period. in the end, it's purely speculation. neither of us can definitively say one way or another. which brings me to deductive reasoning...

I think there are enough receptors for your body to handle a whole hell of a lot more than 250mg test and 500mg tren. Probably enough for 2 grams of EACH and still leftover receptors that are unbound.

technically speaking, you're probably right, total receptors may very well be sufficiently present. specifically speaking, however, total receptors can be misleading. not all receptors are created equal. each type of receptor is genetically programed to interact with specific molecules. i like to use the analogy of doors and keys.

the doors would represent the receptor, and the keys would represent the hormone or molecule possessing the affinity to bind. essentially, these doorways remain closed and locked. when a visitor arrives that holds the key, the door is then unlocked, thus allowing passage. if the visitor does not possess the key to this lock, the door remains closed and passage is not permitted. the same is true with hormones, neurotransmitters, etc, and their respective receptors. make sense?

Some other facts:

genetics def play a major role in this. some people genetically have heightened levels of gene expression for synthesizing certain proteins, for example. this means the person possesses greater amounts of that protein, as well as the cells containing it, than their more average counterparts. since receptors are a part of the living cell, possession of more cells equates to more receptors than the next man.

as mentioned previously, receptors are part of the living cells, and one of their roles is to assist in the communication processes provided by the chemical and hormonal systems of the body with the cells. the cells are incapable of producing more receptors within themselves. for additional receptors to become available, additional cells must be produced, either thru hyperplasia or protein synthesis.

the brain communicates with the cells in 3 ways: electrical impulses, neurotransmitters, and hormones. in order for the latter two to be successful, the cells require a means for their respective instructions or messages to be received. this is made possible thru the receptors on the receiving cells. these intricate processes do not simply stop with sending the messenger to deliver the message. both positive and negative feedback responses play roles here; otherwise, the brain wouldn't know when to stop sending messengers.

most everyone here knows and understands negative feedback responses. at least i hope so, since guys like you and i use the terms so much. one way that negative feedback is sent to and received by the brain is when the respective process has completed. another is when the cells are no longer receiving the messages being sent. if the neurotransmitters or hormones are unable to bind to their receptors, and are left in circulation to their given time, the brain is signaled to halt their respective release. it is the cells that send these signals, and they do this in response to occupied receptors.

so, to summarize the facts:

  • receptors are part of each living cell
  • receptors aide in the body's communication processes by allowing the "messengers" to be received
  • receptors are genetically programmed to bind with specific sets of molecules
  • the brain recognizes when uptake is not occurring via negative feedback
  • genetics play a role in the size and number of cells in the body

Right so how do you know if all receptors are used up and how do you know the body doesn't just synthesize more??

considering these facts, instead of answering with what i believe, i'll make another statement and follow with a question:

since the majority of the body parts we are hoping to affect with AAS are tissues, specifically muscle tissues, we know that these compounds increase transcription rates and stimulate protein synthesis and a much more rapid rate than normal. For this to take place, the hormones bind with the receptors located in the muscle tissues, otherwise, they cannot illicit any sort of response from the cell. when we train hard and the compounds aide the recovery by accelerating it, the outcome is increased muscle density and mass. in a nutshell, more muscle is made; therefore, more cells are now present.

since these hormones must bind with the receptors in the muscles' cells to illicit this response, and are levels are typically extremely elevated during our cycles, at some point these receptors become completely occupied. correct? your question was:

how do you know the body doesn't just synthesize more??

if the body sees excessive hormones present and a halted uptake, which this outcome can be yielded even in the absence of muscle tissue breakdown (training), do you believe that the muscles' cells will simply make more muscle tissue without there being tissue breakdown? that would suggest that gear alone can build muscle and continue to do so as long as we inject increasingly excessive amounts. but we all know that is impossible. training provides the stimulus for growth and repair, the diet provides the raw materials for growth and repair, and hormones accelerate these processes.

j223's picture

Lots of good points there. I think you are right we will never know some of these answers due to the lack of lab testing but that does make sense. Glad you are viewing my argument as friendly right now lol. So we agree there is a limit to the effectiveness of gear and how much we inject actually ends up binding to receptors and creating an anabolic environment, but we just don't know exactly what that limit is?
Good post
+2

Doss's picture

So much more than sticking a needle in your ass and waiting for results.....

You and stickin shit in your ass...

Doss's picture

Indeed. I actually shot a PM to tread asking if he could shed any light here. Haven't seen him around in a minute, so who knows when or if he pops up.

Glad you could appreciate that reply... I spent more than an hour typing that shit. Lol

I'm cruising right now, so I'm a bit more calm and collective. I get a lil edgy on cycle. Lol. 6 more weeks til blast off tho. I'm sure the NPP will have me back to my old self in no time! Smile

Doss's picture

The truth being said by molecular structures it's the ligands shape that makes that tren bind so hard in the receptor for the simple science.... Just like using a flat head or Phillips head in a universal screw.... The Phillips is usually grooved deepr6d and fits snugger so it's kinda the same thing with the test and tren....

Love that analogy.

I have more along these lines in some PM's I had with Celtic. When I have a chance to sit at my PC without my ole lady tugging at my shirt sleeve, I'll throw it all together and post it.

thedarkone's picture

Good post, thank you