+ 1 Advice for 2nd Cycle (Test P + Anavar)
This will be my second cycle (first cycle was over 5 years ago). I'm 26 yo, 5 foot 6 inches tall, 175 pounds, and 10.5% BF (measured in a lab a few days ago so it is accurate). I got my blood taken and hormone labs ordered a few days ago also, so I'll know where all my baseline levels are when I get the results in a few days.
I am not trying to gain a whole lot of mass with this cycle. I am seeking to gain strength, around 5+ pounds of quality muscle, and decrease bodyfat % to around 8%. I also do Crossfit and want my performance to increase in that as well, so it is important that my cardio not go in the shitter and that I not get disabling pumps that prevent me from completing a workout. I understand diet and training play a huge role in determining the results I will get, so I'll take care of things on that end; I also will be taking advantage of the decreased recovery time and will be training my ass off. As far as my cycle goes, however, I would like some input.
I plan on running this cycle for 8 weeks utilizing a relatively low-dose of test propionate as my base and a moderate amount of anavar as my primary anabolic. I plan to structure the cycle like this:
Weeks 1-8: 50mg Test Prop EOD
Weeks 2-8: 50mg Anavar ED
Weeks 1-8: HCG 250iu 2x/week
Weeks 1-8: 1/4cc (6.25mg) Aromasin EOD
PCT:
Week 9: HCG 1500iu 2x/week
Week 9: 50mg Nolvadex ED
Weeks 10-11: 50mg Nolvadex EOD
Week 12: 50mg Nolvadex E3D
Now I bought more than enough product to cover this cycle (my philosophy in this case is that it is better to have too much of something than not enough), so I have room to adjust dosages upward if needed. I am especially curious as to thoughts about how much Aromasin I ought to take to keep my estrogen levels in check and if 6.25mg ED is a good starting point with the relatively mild dose of 175mg/week test prop and 500iu/week HCG or is that too much and should I start with 6.25mg EOD? I did notice from my first cycle (10 weeks Test E @ 500mg/week) that I am sensitive to estrogen and am susceptible to gyno. Finally, am I dosing my HCG correctly? Any other inputs are welcome, as I am very open-minded at this point.
Also, before anyone asks why I want to run the Test P at such a relatively low dose, it is because from my experience with my first cycle of 10 weeks Test E @ 500 mg/wk, I think it raised my RBC too high and made my blood too viscous, which caused my cardio to go to shit (I didn't run any labs at the time so I have no way to confirm this). Also, I have had some experience with prohormones in the past and I simply believe that my body is fairly sensitive to the effects of androgens, so I believe it is better to start low and increase dosages upward if necessary. Also, I am curious as to why most everyone recommends doing at least 100mg of Test Prop EOD when 50mg EOD should still raise blood serum testosterone levels to 2.5 - 3x over baseline (assuming natural endogenous testosterone produciton is 6 - 8 mg/day); why is it necessary to increase levels to 5x+ over baseline to really get a strong effect?
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I'm a planning on running var for my next cycle also and am concerned with the pumps, especially back pumps I've read so much about. My back is bad enough.
Anyway I've read that Taurine taking at 3 to 5 grams ED will help keep those to a minimum.
x2 !!!
taurine is a MUST with quality anavar lol
Anon25x1" pins
100mg of var a day split 2 doses if you can afford
100mg Eod of test prop
The var at this amount will shredded you the fuck up and also gain lean mass if your diet is on par for both
I will order some 25x1" pins since all I have now are 25x1.5". The 1.5" should still be good for glutes, yes? And what about quads? I thought 1.5" would be fine there too, or should I go with 1" for quads? I know 1" for delts or any other smaller site.
Yes, I bought enough var to run 100mg ED for 7 weeks. Do you think the var at that dose will cause disabling pumps that would keep me from completing my Crossfit workouts?
Also, any comments on HCG, Aromasin, and Nolva for on-cycle and PCT dosages?
Most definitely!
This is what I figured. I plan to run 50mg ED. Do you think that dose will cause disabling pumps?
Probably a good idea to start there and see how you respond. You may or may not get back pumps at that dose. Hard to tell unless you try. If you tolerate 50mgs well you can jump up higher and always dose it back down if the pumps are to much.
50mg is a great dosage. Many people may tell you it's not enough but I disagree. If you have quality Var, 50mg is enough to get good results. Sides should be low. Towards the 5 or 6 week mark you will start noticing the pumps getting stronger and stronger. Though 8 weeks is short enough to be able to finish without having to end the Var short.
I really appreciate the input bro! Good stuff!
I will only have 50mg caps, and I know taking it once per day won't allow me to maintain stable var blood plasma levels since it only has a 9 hour half life, but I have read on several different forums people who claim to experience no difference whether they take the same dosage once per day or spread out over multiple times per day. What do you think? Do you think I should be okay taking one cap a day, or would you recommend I try to empty the cap contents into water (even though oxandrolone isn't water soluble) and shake & drink a few times a day to get more even levels. If it really doesn't makes a whole lot of difference then obviously taking it once per day would be a hella lot easier.
Once a day will be okay. Take in morning.
Excellent to hear. Appreciate it bro!
RustyhookerYess!
RustyhookerHcg shouldn't be needed. I'd up the test to 100eod. 6.25Ed bout week 2 as a start.
Ted is very correct on pins as well. Can you update him for the help you'll need.
Why do you recommend against using HCG? I used the HCG as part of my PCT for my Test E cycle and am glad I did. I didn't use it for maintenance on cycle though, so that will be something new, but after hours of research I am convinced that there are only pros to incorporating it into the cycle and virtually no cons.
Thanks for the AI dose recommendation. Did you read above about how I felt the 500mg Test E a week was too much and I am concerned about 100mg EOD having a negative impact on my cardio? Also, I am still awaiting an explanation about why 50mg EOD is considered too small when it still should increase test levels to 2.5 - 3x over baseline.
I appreciate you guys taking the time to respond!
RustyhookerHcg on a short cycle thats barely enough to make any gains is not a good one. If your nut shrivel on that light of a cycle, then you really shouldn't run steroids. Hcg is for ling or harsh/hard cycles. If hcg "felt" like it aided in your cycle last time then why are you going so small now? It's like saying i like whiskey so pass me a miller 67 calorie light beer.
Testosterone doesn't ruin cardio. Small raise in rbc boosts cardio.
50eod is a flat 100mgs. Point dot. Prop does not have a weekly value. Its dead in 48 hours. 100 flat is barely even trt doses. On a long Ester cycle as cutter 100eod is bare minimum for a flat 200.
You wont gain 5lbs and cut hard with such a light cycle. Comparison....i run light conservative cycle and I'm over 180 and shorter than you. So I'm giving advice not only from a vet, but someone of similar size.
Set your personal goals and make the food boost your body.
Again, thanks for taking the time to respond. I appreciate your input, especially since you said we are of similar stature and it seems you have a lot of experience from which I could benefit.
My research of HCG says that it is useful whenever endogenous hormone production is halted, as would be the case even with a very mild 8 week cycle utilizing testosterone. It just keeps the testicles/leydig cells from experiencing atrophy in the first place. I only used HCG last time for my PCT; I did not use it while on cycle. But I definitely think it made my PCT easier.
I understand a small increase in RBC is beneficial, but last time I cycled with the 500mg/wk Test E I feel like it raised my RBC substantially (felt like my blood was thicker and my cardio was much worse). The worst thing about this is that this statement is subjective as I had no labs done and therefore no evidence to support it; thus, I can only say it "felt" that way.
My understanding is that prop has a half life of 2 - 3 days, but it's active life would be much longer (a half life of 2 days would mean that 50mg injected on day one would equal 6.25mg's left to be absorbed on day 10). I used www.roidcalc.com , and based on a 3-day half-life, a 50mg EOD dose would end up equaling 26mg/day of active test prop by week 4. If you multiply 26mg by 80% to get the actual mg of testosterone (minus the propionate ester), then it will still be over 20mg. If a healthy male only naturally produces 6 - 8 mg/day of endogenous testosterone, then isn't 20mg/day at least a 2.5x increase over baseline?
100mg of cypionate every week is standard practice for TRT. 100mg cyp = approx 70mg actual testosterone. TRT aims to put testosterone in the "optimal" (eg. above average) category.
175mg of propionate every week is what 50mg Prop EOD would amount to. 175mg prop = approx 140mg actual testosterone. So 50mg propionate EOD is 2x a standard TRT dose of 100mg/wk cypionate. How would that not be conducive to anabolism and growth?
Now, I want to make it clear that I am NOT arguing. I acknowledge I lack actual real world experience, and I realize just because something looks one way on paper doesn't mean it will yield the same results in a real world experiment. From the research I've done, it seems like this likely holds true here. I was just wondering if anyone could offer any insight as to why this is, and if anyone has every tried running low dose test with a cycle. Perhaps the gains are just less dramatic but are still significant?
Also, wouldn't the anavar work synergistically with the test to help produce a greater effect? Initially I wanted to utilize anavar as the primary anabolic of this cycle and simply run test because I know anavar will shut down my own test production. After I realized that a moderately high dose of anavar may cause disabling pumps during a crossfit workout, I decided to up to the test to a 2x TRT dose and scale back the anavar.
By "set your personal goals and make the food boost your body," are you implying that I shouldn't bother with AAS at all but should just focus more on my diet?
hey man so second cycle how many sites have you pinned? because pinning eod for 8 weeks youre going to need a good site rotation and pinning technique. really best thing for you would be test e and var that way youre only pinning twice a week and can try out new muscles to inect. also dont take a day off from the var on sunday. it has a 9 hour half life so you need to take it everyday to keep your levels stable and see the best resylts
I've pinned glutes, quads, and delts before. I'm much more comfortable and have more experience pinning quads and glutes vs delts though. I have 50 23g 1" (for withdrawing oil from vial) and 50 25g 1.5"(for pinning). Can easily get more and different sizes if necessary.
I was planning on just rotating between quads and glutes, so each site would get pinned once every 8 days. On my Test E cycle, I did 250mg 2x week with just using glutes, so each glute got hit once a week and that worked fine.
I know oxandrolone only has a 8-9 hour half life, so I figured it's not going to have stable blood levels anyway if I only take it once a day (and all I will have are 50mg caps, so can't really split it). The way I'm looking at it, it's kind of like taking a pre-NO supplement before working out. But if I am told this will reduce its effectiveness and should take it every day, I will oblige.
I want to go Test P over Test E because I want to be able to recover and start PCT asap and don't want the ester hanging around my system for 2+ weeks after my last injection.
if you feel comfortable pinning eod be my guest. try and incorporate delts and maybe chest or lats as well that way your glutes and quads have more tim to recover between pins. 25g is a goo size and 1 inch pins are good for everywhere but glutes which you need a 1.5 inch for.
now the var. taking it once a day isnt be very effective. the levels in your body will be all over the place. with var i personally take it 3 times a day. right when i wake up, hour preworkout, and right before bed. so if you could possibly get yoyr hands on some more var and split the dose up or even up the dose a little thatd be better. 50mg ed vs 75mg ed shows a huge difference atleast for me so i dont think itd be a bad idea to up your dose a little to try and stabalize blood levels better
also i didnt catch this before but your PCT needs reworking. should look more like this.
Nolva 40/40/20/20
Clomid 100/100/50/50
Aromasin 6.25mg ed
I really would rather not use Clomid if it could be avoided. For my last cycle I just used Nolva with HCG and it worked fine. I tried using Clomid also, but I thought it was making me depressed so I stopped and that subjective side effect seemed to go away. Also, do I really want to use Aromasin for PCT when I was using it on cycle? I mean, shouldn't my estrogen levels already be in check and if I kept using after I stopped Test P administration then I would figure it would drive my estrogen levels into the ground.
For my nolva use, I went 50mg ED/50mg EOD/50mg EOD/50mg E3D instead of the usual 40/40/20/20 because I will only have 50mg capsules. It has like a 5-7 day half life so I figured I could get by taking it like that.
This is from an old member zewi. I'd write it up but I'm at the gym and don't wanna do it in my phone
"Clomid works by blocking estrogen at the pituitary. The pituitary sees less estrogen, and makes more LH. More LH means that the Leydig cells in the testis make more testosterone.
Nolvadex is used mostly to stop gyno by binding with receptors in the breast tissue. So Nolvdex blocks estrogen in the breast tissue."
And yea the clomid will cause some depression. I've found taking it before bed helps to Curb that effect at last for me personally