3rd Cycle Test E + Var. Is this ideal?
Hello everyone, I'm new here but have spent countless hours researching prior to coming up with my proposed cycle.
I am 29 with 11 years of training experience. 5'8" 198 LBS 11% BF currently. Previously done 2 Test E only cycles 400 mg/wk for 10 weeks with 4 week PCT of Nolva + Arimidex throughout. Had good results with an excellent diet and training routine. Last cycle ended 2 years ago.
Now looking to add to this and make a new cycle. I want to drop to single digit BF% while increasing strength and maintaining weight. Not looking to bulk. I'm a combat athlete.
Wk 1 - 12 Test E 500 mg/wk mon/thur
Wk 9 - 14 Anavar 60 mg/day
Wk 3 - 14 HCG 500 iu/wk mon/thur
Wk 1 - 18 Aromasin 12.5 mg/day
Wk 15 - 16 Clomid 50 mg/day + Nolva 40 mg/day
Wk 17 - 18 Clomid 25 mg/day + Nolva 20 mg/day
Will also be taking Liv52. What else is suggested to add and what should be changed?
I have never used Clomid, Aromasin, Anavar, or HCG. I have also seen recommendations of half the doses I chose here for Clomid and Nolva so I'm just looking for input. Also I know running HCG throughout means not to use it during PCT, I am just not sure how long before PCT the HCG should be stopped.
I will say I am extremely susceptible to gyno and estrogen related sides so that's why I'm loading up on the AI's/SERM's but I know too much is also undesirable. I also have a hard time coming back from being shut down, or I just didn't do it right in the past. Perhaps my fault for being a bit naive with not enough research or not the right/best products. Should I add Arimidex?
Thank you everyone for your input. I am taking all suggestions into consideration.
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Question: If I were to switch this over to test prop instead of test e, how should this cycle then be laid out?
tread-mThe only real change other than pinning schedule would be in the pct start. With the prop being the test you would begin pct 2-4 days after last pin rather than 2 weeks after last pin with the long ester. So with this run 150 eod or 75 ed in the prop would be nice. The ed will benefit a great deal if you go that route given eod is still going to give more flucuation in test and estro. Given you have the gyno history flucuation is a negative for you. Balance in hormone is much less likely to create a gyno environment than is flucuation. Either can but flucuation makes it easier to control. So prop showing to fall off a cliff in test plasma at the 48 hr mark the ed pin actually creates the all out perfect balance. Ester will not build as will the long ester given with long the shots are coming much faster than the ester drop or depletion. So within days you reach the absolute peak in test with prop and will never exceed that place given its dropping as fast as its coming. The balance will also create an environment that makes you less likely to have bacne although some still will if vulnerable to even mild flucuation. Easier to find your sweet spot with an AI too btw.
Very informative and much appreciatedTread! Thank you so much for your time and very detailed explanations. I think this it the route that I will go. Being that it's prop and I won't need several weeks to reach peak levels in my system, how many week do you suggest the Test be run? Would I want to do something like this:
Wk 1 - 8 Test Prop 150 mg EOD (or 75 mg/day)
Wk 3 - 8 Anavar 60 mg/day
Wk 1 - 8 HCG 500 iu/wk mon/thur
Wk 1 - 12 Aromasin 12.5 mg EOD
Wk 9 - 10 Clomid 50 mg/day + Nolva 40 mg/day
Wk 11- 12 Clomid 50 mg/day + Nolva 20 mg/day
I'm not exactly sure on the Anavar and HCG when to start and end. Should I do more than 6 weeks of Anavar?
Am I best running the test prop for 8 weeks or is more recommended, 10 or 12?
tread-mThe test run given you have some past use would be up to you. you will have nice benefit in the short cycle and obviously more benefit in the longer cycle so one to think on. For me I'm a prop whore so it would be a twelver! Lol as to the hcg you can roll whole run or just final 2 weeks of run up to you or even bring it in if you see atrophy and or it has an impact on the drive but do drop it last pin day. Anavar is fine there in the final 6 weeks, I might say 4 weeks if it was a higher dose but you're fine there just be sure to split dose 30/30 for better outcome. On the 8 week I'd say the pct looks good if you go 12 might jump at least week one of pct to 100 on the clomid but either way there I think you're in pretty good shape here.
So I will up the Clomid to 50mg all 4 weeks of PCT. Aromasin EOD instead of ED unless an increase is needed. HCG until last pin, so stopping end of wk 12 not 14. Looked more into EQ and thinking I may try it in the future but not this cycle. Any other suggestions or changes/additions before I place my order? Is Arimidex necessary or just use Aromasin? I appreciate the input I have received and everyone's help tremendously. I am wanting to drop the bf for the summer months not keep it off permanently as I know in itself that will be a daunting task. I do not do shows and don't really plan to. Thanks again.
tread-mThere is some immunity that can be built up to adex and that is something you will not experience in aromasin. aromasin in fact will continue to work better over time being more effective, needing less and actually making one less gyno prone at lower doses in the future and have greater effect on estro/shbg control over time in smaller doses...so for me and as to those beliefs and opinions its aromasin. You should have letro "on hand" as a new user in particular. Its better to have it and not need it than to not have it and need it.
Thank you Tread! Almost forgot the Letro. If I were to need it, what dosing protocol would you suggest?
tread-mVaries depending on the need. I prefer to staircase up and down then jump to low dose aromasin following. Treatment to prevent estro spike. Would have to know the circumstance for protocol so lets just have it on hand and only use after consulting someone here given many newbs panic...lol. you will likely have some of the so called signs, puffy nips, sore nips etc and that in and of itself is not gyno, it is the norm. So we roll a good AI protocol up or down as needed or even dropped if needed and work from there and I bet you're fine. Have it though, have several people in my box right now wishing they did, we have them registered for the fall hooters comp though so not a total loss. I actually think one of these guys has the gift and might make a us proud this year with a top 5!!!
Lol maybe a wet t-shirt contest victory in their future's! You may have missed my post in this thread from 2 days ago regarding my past experience with gyno and having had surgery due to it. So I'm trying to be extremely cautious and prepared and I'm going to have more than enough AI and SERM on hand just in case. That is my biggest worry with this whole thing, however, my doc said it's very unlikely to return. I hope he's right.
tread-mI bet with proper use you are fine brother. Believe it or not most guys who get gyno did so because sometime during puberty or right after they developed a small amount of female breast tissue as it were. So what happens if you look at men say over 50 at the beach that have "bitch tits" they may have had a chest that looked fine most of their life but had developed this female breast tissue in peuberty . Once they got old enough for test to drop way off and estro become more dominant the gyno from puberty they had no idea they had begins to grow. So in your case the doc removed this tissue whether it was gear derived from poor AI use or poor pct session or puberty driven. This kind of removes your "predisposition" to gyno. However, poor use of the A8 or poor pct protocol could actually cause the predisposition to return and then you are back where you were pre-surgery in another cycle or 2. I think maybe lesson learned for you and you make this work now given your research here and slow methodical roll.
Run that var with prop. 20-30min cardio daily, clean eating lots of water and you'll be ripped like bruce lee. IMO i would run the var a little longer
I am not and will never be on a "diet". I am on a pursuit of molding my lifestyle around proper nutrition and to me my food is my fuel. I eat 6 times a day or more. Never full never hungry. I eat to get me to my next meal. For cutting I get almost all my carbs in before 11am. I wake up at 3am every day, cardio first thing. Alternating daily between 25 min HIIT and steady pace 50 min on treadmill. Bedtime 845pm. Brown rice black beans potatoes tuna turkey chicken protein shakes plenty of fruit. Supplement glutamine multivitamin fish oil glucosamine BCAA's and beta alanine. I don't have my regimen in front of me but I developed it with the help of a nutritionist. I have no problem fluctuating plus or minus 20lbs as I have competed as low as 165 the past (not a good idea) and all the way up to 205+. Body composition is what I'm after now. I want the fat loss without the muscle and strength loss. Also looking good for the summer doesn't hurt right
thanks so muvh for your help.
tread-mSounds nice but yes, you are on a diet..lol. what you eat is your diet, I know diet is a 4 letter word but I don't use it that way. What you laid out above is your diet. If you eat nothing but cheetos, you're on the cheeto diet, greasy shit 24/7, thats the greasy shit diet. When we mention diet we mean what you eat not Jennie Craig, although, thats a diet too. Rock the kitchen brother, and your secret is a safe with me, I promise I won't tell anyone you're on a diet. Wink wink
sgtstedankoboom! Yup Yup... Diets aren't just for fat guys, dude. Don't get offended
I might even throw in EQ@4-500, & drop the test to test p@300, being a combat athlete... One might even, go to a bodyopus type of diet, w/clen mixed in with the vars for good measure, the last 4 weeks. That's what I'd personally do : ) but that cheetos diet looks interesting.
I would love to be on the cheetos and greasy shit diets combined! I will research a little more into EQ. What turned me off about it is the thickened blood and anxiety and increased appetite side effects I read about. Mostly with whatever I do I'm just worried about the estrogen related side effects and canceling them out.
sgtstedankoWouldn't we all, brother:) Nothing beet root powder, vita e, & baby aspirin can't handle for me. As far as appetite. Yup, nothing I can do about it, except stock up on carrots & celery, lots of water heavy fruits & veggies. Compounds effect everyone differently, & maybe you're1that can control it... Enjoy the ride!
I figured out how to reply to a specific post haha! I totally understand and when you put it that way, I agree that it's a diet. I had the idea in my head that a diet is a gimmicky temporary thing that people do to lose weight. But I guess ya gotta eat! So a diet it is
thanks man!
Thank you guys for the replies. I will up the Clomid to 50mg through the 4 week PCT and also try the Aromasin EOD.
I had some issues through puberty as far as having more breast tissue than normal which didn't go away with time. I believe it really accelerated with the cycles I took or possibly a wannabe Tren supplement I took that I found out later had actually tested positive for Tren. I actually ended up having gyno surgery for it which is a reason for the 2 year hiatus. Due to timing it was impossible for me to pinpoint the cause, if there was just one whether it be the Test or the supplement or maybe bunk AI/SERM. They removed the lumps from behind both nipples because they had become increasingly painful. I was told it's very unlikely to return but itis still possible. I am maybe being too cautious now but that was one hell of an ordeal that I do not want to experience again. That's why I'm looking at what I think is a light/safe cycle but want to be sure I'm fully prepared and educated.
tread-mHcg up to last pin , drop the AI to eod even gyno prone, you have to have some estro and in your shape the gyno should stay in check. You need letro on hand in your case for sure. Tell me about your gyno, from puberty, fat on the chest, lumps, whats going on to make you say gyno prone? Ok, no mention of carb work. Single digit bf is done with carb manipulation not really compounds. If running the low and early carb cut run the compounds really play a roll but without it the compounds struggle. This sounds like something you want to keep so carb work will need to be a part of your world given most people drop to singles for comps etc, if the goal is to get there and stay for a period of time, you have to work that diet.
I would really like to know what this 'carb manipulation' is my friend. Could you point me in the right direction? Think it will help are man here too. Cheers
tread-mMany variations to the goal depending on goal and whether for comp etc etc. One for example in a 12 week cycle may be 100 carbs cut by noon for 4 weeks then 100 cut by 10 AM for 4 weeks then 50 carbs for the final four weeks of a cycle eatin with first meal only. All food beyond the first meal or other might be lean meat and fresh or frozen veggies. The meat will sort of depend on total goal but eating on a 6 meal plan. So much more to it when competing and a lot more speficificity at to foods and timing and estro cuts and water dumps etc but in general this is an example of carb manipulation. It will work towards a very low bf in a 12 week run if already in good shape and amplify the use of cutting compounds dramatically. The compounds are great if the kitchen is not fighting them at every turn with a different goal. In that run for example 40 mg of var will do better than someone else using 100 kg's and not eating properly. Real general explanation here and not necessarily for anyone given exact goal and current condition is required. My little brother headed into some summer comps here has been on a very similar carb run to the above and has recently dropped to 24 carbs on this program before heading back up to plump up. Ripped all to F, veins crawling over veins, Christmas tree, Christmas wreath Christmas bells...lol.....just ripped up like an overcooked roast. Ran a very low dose triple stack on ace/eq/prop the final 12 having been prop only in the weeks leading to the triple. The kitchen was the work though and more importantly the carb work. Just manipulating what food does by manipulating how and when you intake carbs. Might surprise you to know he gained about 5 lbs in this run, recomped dramatically. So you have to figure his muscle gain was very high given he was around 12 % bf 26 weeks ago and now down to around 5 and up 5 lbs. It does prove you can cut and gain at the same time but it also proves its slow and methodical and this type of diet is for the serious, real fing old, real fing quick! I don't compete so I have goals of keeping my width and bulky body type and will only bounce in the carb work here and there to stay lean and in good shape but try to use carbs properly yr round. This is why I touched on carb work for his goal here. If he desires to keep the lower digits in bf as a life choice he needs to be prepared to work carbs, no other way to stay there once there without constant use of unhealthy drugs. If you can't get there without clen for example, you can't stay there with cle so outside of a competition there is simply never a reason to go there. Point being, these guys you see on the mag covers or the awsome work you saw Suzie do, 90% carb work and given Suze is so close to us here she will tell you the carbs is where its at and the kitchen is the real work, compounds and gym are the easy stuff.
Couldnt agree more. The kitchen is the hardest part of all. Say your not competing like I imagine 98% of the blokes on here, is there a basic format to follow to try and keep you lean? For example, two week heavy on the carbs and the next two weeks limited carbs after 12am??? Really appreciate your response mate, always makes my jaw drop. You should write a book buddy, I'd buy it:)
tread-mLol...well for me its really just stay fairly clean all the time but I do give myself cheat meals here and there, in fact I think for the avergae joe an actual cheat day once a week is great if eating clean all week. I think you kinda snap the baody back to work if you are doing most of the work for it in the clean diet. I have my daughter for example on a diet by where she has a full cheat day having ran 100 carbs ed pre-lunch. She put away mexican food and gourmet popcorn and another couple snacks with 2 more not so great meals. The rule for her was still get in your protein at proper interval on cheat day. So next day she had actually lost a pound. She asks, why did my weight stay the same all week so clean and after cheat day I lose a pound?! I said well you threw your body into this perfect place and once you went a little crazy it just went into hyper drive and destroyed all the junk. Just everything running so efficient that it had no trouble stepping up the insulin and blowing the metabolic rate through the roof for 24 hrs and the end result was actual weight loss. She also can't understand why she has not lost much weight but her pants fit lose and shirts getting big on her. Well I only get to see her once or twice a week so I see the recomp, its dramatic. Thinner face, tighter muscles, pants that were tight lose etc. Trying to get her to throw her scales away and buy more mirrors but she's not buying it! Lol but again for me I just stay clean mostly and even on a cheat day I make sure to get my protein in at the proper intake etc. It really is pretty easy for me given I think if you stay below 10 its a heck of a lot easier to keep it off, get above it and it wants to breed its own kind and you get to where you gain weight "looking at food" as some some say. Hit your swwet spot and its like its just not that hard to stay there. I'll say this now as to working the real low carb manipulation. Your body is wanting to hold weight so bad that if you use a low carb program you have to be very careful if you roll off of it because you really can "blow up over night" . That can be good or bad, if you incorporate good carbs into your high protein diet in that scenario you can drag on muscle much quicker but you have to watch fat because you can drag fat on very very fast when the body is in this mega "store" mode. Competitors will tell you the easiest time to gain muscle is after the comp season they go througbh and can pull on 25 pounds in no time..again, bad or good depending on how you go about that. Many will even use it as a step back in order to take two steps forwrd if they feel they have hit a plateau. Got off your subject question there as it related to this thread in origin butsomewhat related given you have to be careful with carbs and weight in the change up.
Cheers mate
AnonTest prop would be even better if your trying to drop to single digits if im correct bro. Its good for cutting
Anon12.5 mg ed isnt bad though but you could go even lower or eod
AnonShit this actually looks in order! Switch that pct to 50mg clomid all the way through. You could even run 600mg test e but actually your right 500is good its a little higher than previous cycle which is correct . You got it lined up good. The aromasin you dlnt really have to take ed. You could just use it if needed or unless your gyno prone! But good job on set up. Simple and not overdosed. Smart