posted Mon, 05/23/2016 - 10:33
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Hi Guys been on this site but never post , I have a question about HCG, I just finished a test E/anavar cycle and started my pct with Clomid and Tamoxifen I used HCG on cycle , but ran out and just received more.
PCT
day 1 150mg clomid 60mg nolva
day 2-11 100mg clomid, 40mg nolva
day 12-21 50mg clomid, 20mg nolva.
im on day 7 of my PCT should i save it or can i start it now and what dosage?
thanks in advance for any advice.
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You didn't reply to me below but I see another member has gone and provided you some advise and I want to clarify. Next time take the effor to do some research and if you have questions or want a confirmation come and ask it here sharing your thoughts.
Standard PCT 14 days after last pin for the enanthate ester:
Clomid 100/100/50/50
Nolva 40/40/20/20
You don't run HCH on PCT for standard PCT. In fact it was probably unnecessary for this cycle unless you have known issues with testicular atrophy. It has its place during a whole cycle and in short blasts 2 weeks pre-PCT (for more complex and harsher cycles) and even as per of some power PCT protocols.
There is no need to front load both nolva and clomid for two weeks.
One week of front loading is sufficient to reach peak plasma concentration.
The PCT that you proposed is overkill and a waste of meds only to increase the chance of side effects.
Any evidence / numbers to back that up? Be interesting to share with the community. I'd agree a lot of pct info is becoming old.
Yes, it's unfortunate that a large amount PCT info is outdated because IMO PCT is the most important part of a cycle. What good is putting on new lean tissue if most is lost post cycle.
All SERMs, for the focus on this discussion nolva and clomid, share the characteristics of rapid metabolism, rapid absorption and long elimination half life.
The study below explains that clomiphene citrate (clomid) is actually a 60/40 mixture of two isomers, and then lists the pharmacokinetics of each isomer in men. Clomid reaches peak plasma concentration in about 6 hours after dosing. I'm sorry, even with university access, I could only find the abstract with the little time I had to do this research.
Serum levels of enclomiphene and zuclomiphene in hypogonadal men on long-term clomiphene citrate treatment
The study below shows that peak plasma concentration of nolva is reached within 24 hours in males.
Tamoxifen and toremifene concentrations in plasma are greatly decreased by rifampin
*This may take me multiple attempts to get the hyperlinks correct.
Thanks for this. I am very interested to see what your research says on optimal dosage for both Clomid and Nolva. I am genuinely interested to know why 100mg of Clomid for example is not better than 50mg at the start and for say a period of time of the PCT. Same for the Nolva. It would be helpful to the community if you have some research to back up your claim. I agree that we should always look to the lowest possible dose to achieve the desired result and limit side effects.
As to your comment on HCG I would still encourage you to change your language from "mandatory" to "optional". There are other factors at play here especially for novice and first time users. For example one of the points of running a test only first cycle is to learn how the body responds to just test and especially as it relates to conversion to estro. We all know that HCG converts to estro too. Now I appreciate that at low doses (like 250IU twice per week) that this should be minimal. The emphasis is on the should though. For those few that aromatise heavily and they're running HCG means they would somehow need to factor this in. I guess what I am saying is far better to say it's optional but you highly recommend it for the reasons you've stated and to be aware of the additional risk and complexity however low the likelihood and impact.
Just for the record I am a fan of HCG and I use it in most cycle especially when running 19Nors or for part of very long cycles. It has certainly made my recovery better and easier. I have not however personally noticed any difference nor has my blood work shown any difference on test only cycles or relatively simple test and oral stacks.
Glad to have you here and participating in the community and looking forward to hearing more from you in terms of your PCT research.
I don't fully understand your clomid question. Do you mean why is 100mg of clomid preferred over 150mg?
To set the record straight the changes that I've purposed are not just from my research. The board where I do most of my posting is filled with dozens of knowledgeable members all with decades of lifestyle experience and the are on the cutting edge of qualitative and analytical data.
We stress diet over compounds and try and strive to make ever aspect cycling as safe as possible.
Dacky, I agree that first cycle should be test only. However, hcg mimics lh once injected, and lh is a naturally occurring hormone.
Administering 500IU/week of hcg will not elevate test out of the normal reference range. Due to this conversion to e2 would not make a substantial difference. For what it's worth guys on trt, that only use test, use hcg twice per week for the reasons I stated earlier.
When you speak of high aromatizers a assume that you mean people that need letro in order to keep e2 within range. In my experience this is less that 2% of the population.
Keeping e2 within range should never be an issue on cycle, for someone of less than 15% bf, if they use pharma grade AIs and have mid cycle bw that includes a sensitive e2 assay.
From my limited experience on this board I believe that may of you often under dose your AIs.
Sorry for my Clomid question I am trying to understand why you believe a 75/50/50/50 protocol is superior/as effective as a 100/100/50/50 protocol?
Regarding your point on AI's we encourage blood testing as a means to establish the right AI dose and if one is even needed. Many of course don't need this advise and end up overdosing their AI or dosing it prematurely and crashing their estro or letting estro get out of hand.
You may find this board too preaches diet and training first and compounds second and we are conservative in our approach and advice. Take a look around the forums.
I believe the peak plasma concentration one can have while on clomid is 40ng/dl. Due to this, taking 75mg of clomid for one week is sufficient at saturating e2 receptors.
It's like why taking 8 advil is a overkill, because your plasma can only hold something like 50mcg of ibuprofen at a time.
Honestly I don't think it would make up difference, other than possible increased side effects, if you too 75mg of clomid for week one of PCT or 100mg.
It't not that your proposed PCT isn't as effective, it's just more than is needed to achieve the same effect.
And we are at the heart of the issue. I couldn't draw the conclusions you have on the peak plasma concentrations for Clomid in men being 40nd/dl and the relationship between dosage and duration of dosage to achieve those levels (the more important point imo) from the study you linked above. I've done a quick search and can find some references to the peak plasma concentration levels for the two isomers but nothing on how quickly these are reached at various doses of clomid. Do you have this info you can share?
Wiza11Yes sorry i meant Dex, Thanks for you advice! means a lot!
Wiza11Week 1-12 Test E. 500mg/wk divided into 2 pins per week at 250mg each.
Week 6-12 Anavar at 50mg a day. They are 50mg tablets.
Week 1 to 12: Arimidex @ 0.25mg every other day (up until PCT starts)
week 1 to 12 250iu of twice weekly of HCG
PCT is above.
I did run the hcg on cycle.. i guess i was unsure if it can be helpful during PCT as well.
looks like ill save it for next cycle
I assume you meant dex week 1-14.
PCT usually begins 14 days after last pin on 500mg/week of test e.
For future cycles you should use 250IU of hcg twice per week from day one of cycle up until 2-3 days before staring PCT.
You only need to front load nolva and clomid for one week in order to reach peak plasma concentration.
Dosages over 100mg of clomid should be avoided because that's when ocular issues begin to occur.
You nolva and clomid dosages should look similar to those below.
nolva 40/20/20/20
clomid 75/50/50/50
You're not helping here but just spoon feeding info. We tend to discourage that. You didn't even ask for stats. Plus you've proposed a non-standard PCT and told the OP he must use HCH throughout going forward. This can be a choice but is certainly not a must - especially for simple cycles. Please have a think before you just jump in.
I agree that spoon feeding is counterproductive.
However, OP is in the PCT phase of the cycle and everyday is crucial.
He can't afford to spend 2-3 days doing research at this point.
That is a standard PCT for an average cycle that is not overly long or include a 19 nor.
There is no need to ask for stats at this point.
The AAS part of the cycle is over and PCT meds and dosages would be the same for anyone regardless of stats.
Hcg is is mandatory for all cycles.
Hcg is a very inexpensive insurance policy that maximizes the effectiveness of PCT and HPTA reset.
Hcg stimulates p450 enzymes and helps restore a natural balance of many important hormones.
No offence to you or to any other member of this board, but a majority of the advice given in this PCT forum is easily 3-4 years behind the advice of other forums.
So would you know if the OP is not some kid. May still need some help with PCT if he was but you have a responsibility to check this and to tailor your advise accordingly.
Given you know so much about new/better PCT protocols including the use is HCH on cycle - which you have said again is "mandatory" (according to who) - why don't you write something up with your references and enlighten us all.
I agree that stats are very importing when giving cycle advise.
However, this was PCT advice.
PCT protocol is based in the cycle or blast not the stats.
Whether OP was 18 or 81, as long as he wasn't on TRT, the advice would have been the same.
Hcg is mandatory on every cycle because it increases the chances of of a successful HTPA rest.
Even if it's only a 5% increase then it's still worth the $50-60 dollars it costs to use hcg on cycle.
You can't put a price on your hormonal health and every avenue should be exhausted.
Hcg is not only speeds up recovery it prevents testicular atrophy, balances hormonal function and is involved in the process of production for DHEA, cortisol and pregnenolone.
I do most of my posting on other boards, but if time permits I may write so meting up for this forum.
Hcg is suppressive to natural lh production.
Lh secretion is one of the hormonal pathways that you're trying to restore during PCT.
Due to this, hcg is best suited for use on cycle and not during PCT.
If you're going to put these powerful hormones in your body you should have enough respect for your health to learn how to use them correctly.
What compounds did you use on cycle and for how long?
Stats
Age: 31
Height: 6'1
Weight: 200
BF: ? Please complete your stats
What does your own research tell you? May want to think about the length of your PCT! Again research.
Wiza11Im 32, 6'1 200 lbs body fat is around 12%