posted Thu, 08/18/2016 - 17:28
2769
+ 4 Cruising on gear.
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This may not belong here but since I know this usually is the 1st place most people stop at.
Whether you like Palumbo or not, he makes the best points in this video. We have been preaching this to most of the steroid junkies for years of this but noone pays attention to us. Maybe hearing it from pro's might sway a few. Skip the first couple minutes though as they talk about the idiot scaling the trump tower.
If you train as hard and eat as hard off cycle you will not lose gains. Also pay attention to when he talks about bunk gear and how they talk about blood work.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nRaixE7IBZk
Also this is SCIENCE not BROSCIENCE.
I had to correct this Some of this is SCIENCE not BROSCIENCE
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Ok I've been staying out the forums lately but this is just too blatantly wrong to let go. These guys are washed up morons and everything that came from their mouths was broscience at its finest, other than you need to fix your other health markers by coming down.
The androgen receptor down-regulation is a MYTH. It is not a beta receptor or an insulin receptor which do desensitize and get picked off the membrane by clathrin mediated endocytosis. The androgen receptor is inside in the cell, which at least he got right, and it has been proven in studies that it up-regulates in response to its ligands (aka testosterone, nandrolone, etc). Low testosterone is extremely dangerous to your heart, bone, and mental health among other things. Google it for a complete list if you'd like. So "crashing your testosterone is the best thing you can do" is completely garbage advice.
Here's some real articles on the androgen receptor from scientists who actually know what they're talking about:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15472231
http://www.jbc.org/content/267/2/968.short
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15354030
RustyhookerWell said and cited. +2
Well, These guys have been using AAS almost since its inception so if we go by experience I would listen to quite a bit of what they say. Some of it may not make sense but these guys were on stage and actual Pro bodybuilders. To say they are full of shit means they did not walk the walk but if I remember correctly both of these guys competed in big name shows and placed in the top 5 quite a few times. You only found one thing suspect of what they said and that was receptor saturation so because they might be wrong on ONE thing now they are idiots and have no idea what they are talking about? Let me guess, you blast and cruise right?
Because to me it seems the only ones up in arms and bash these guys are the ones that never come off cycle. By the way it is not a myth, And also the articles you posted did not mention even once that androgen receptors do not get desensitized, It only mentioned the supraphysiological level of testosterone which of course will "fill the void." You also tried to show another article on the effects of exercise, which once again does not explain your hypothesis on androgen receptor manipulation or saturation. None of those articles proved or disproved it.
bigurielThe "he knows because he's a pro" argument is so ridiculous. Half of those guys (if not most) cruise on their fantastic genetics and don't really do anything differently from the average gym rat in terms of training or nutrition. Their success is not due to their superior method, it's due to their superior genetics, gaining muscle and burning fat is easy for them.
There's a reason why there's athletes and there's coaches. Look at the olympics, all the top level athletes with great genetics who were born to do that and have been doing it since they were kids. Do you think any of them knows how to structure their training regimen? Their diet? Their PEDs? They do what their coach tells them to do, because he's the one with the knowledge.
Bodybuilding as a whole is a whole bunch of notches down from olympic lifting or even powerlifting in terms of the real scientific knowledge involved, but it works because ultimately bodybuilding is very simple: lift weights, eat more to get bigger, eat less to get leaner. Then there are a million nuances of how to go about doing this but this is the 80%. The main difference between subjects is then genetics, some people go train for an hour and gain 10 grams of muscle, and some very few people go do the exact same workout and gain 50 grams of muscle. Life isn't fair, deal with it.
Yeah this is exactly why I stopped posting anything. I really have no desire to waste my time and try to dispute every single piece of crap science that pops up anymore. It's exhausting. Every one of those articles showed that the receptor upregulated when activated with testosterone and they each showed it in a unique mechanism. In response to testosterone increase with exercise, exogenous use, and in vitro... They also showed that it downregulates harshly when not exposed. It explains some of it in the abstracts so you don't have to even read the entire article to get that much? Please look a little more closely.
If you don't want to read scholarly articles then take a look at this:
https://thinksteroids.com/articles/androgen-receptor-regulation/
I do not "blast and cruise" because I have absolutely no desire to ever compete considering it is absolute hell on the human body. I hardly ever even cycle period anymore since I'm happy with my body. I am however on trt because an endocrinologist evaluated me and determined I needed it. So if you'd like to call that blasting and cruising then yes absolutely guilty.
I picked apart the entire premise of their video which was the only point made in this instance. I have no idea what else you're trying to dispute? Dave palumbo gives out questionable advice as far as nutrition, drugs, and especially synthol. Not to mention he's famous for destroying his midsection with drug abuse. No clue who the other guy even is since I don't follow this sport closely, or really even at all. Anyone however is capable of becoming huge if they pound enough drugs, food, weights, and most importantly couple that with good genetics. Doesn't mean they have any scientific knowledge whatsoever
The point of the post was to initiate more knowledge and more learning. If you haven't noticed lately this site has been over run with 150 pound 6 foot 20 year olds that want to run grams of gear and eat pizza all day. If you stopped disputing and contributing then that's all there will be left.
There are valid points to every side of the coin and most of our questions will never be answered completely until they do a lot more testing. For now all we can do is debate, read, watch, and learn, then teach others.
Palumbo is not the best person to take any advice from and neither is Piana, or Bostin Loyd, or any of the other so called experts but they do all share the same consensus.
RustyhookerI've been primarily absent the last 6 months. Still reading daily but not tossing info.
But you hit the nail on the head with ...
If you stopped disputing and contributing then that's all there will be left.
I totally agree with this. Even on trt I come off at least 2x a year for a minimum off 6 weeks. First couple times were brutal. Now I use test prop to taper off the test c and also to kickstart getting back on. Works much better. Don't have that horrible shut down feeling for as long.
So how would someone on trt ever truly clear out their receptors? Unless they purposely crashed, but that would effect most people's personal lives, relationships and even work life...
In that same respect how would someone that has normal testosterone levels clear out their receptors then. My TRT brings my T level to 650 which is probably even below what alot of people have for their natural T production. I don't buy this whole receptor saturation thing.
I get what you're saying and I don't really agree with everyone on this topic either. Some of my close friends are pro power lifters and IFBB bodybuilders and they all say the same things on this matter. "The body adapts to compounds over time and you will Plateau and stop making gains at some point. So cruise on Test and switch compounds to keep making gains. Switching compounds is a shock to the body and you'll keep growing. Period."
You are comparing normal body produced chemicals versus synthetic man made though. You're body regulates the release of the hormone in your body and with injections it is somewhat regulated but at a higher dose. The average male produces around 4-7 mg a day of test, when you inject the Prop that is double, or even triple the daily dose and since prop is fast acting that is a supraphysiologic dose. Test enanthate is a small exception to that rule being that it slowly releases but it is still at a much higher mg per day then normal.
Testosterone whether produced naturally or injected is the same exact hormone. There is no difference in the chemical makeup of the testosterone. The concentration of testosterone in my blood is the same level as someone who produces it naturally. Given that, I don't see how my receptors would be so called more saturated than someone else who is producing test natural and probably likely has even higher concentrations of testosterone in there blood serum than me. Given that logic it appears that people with naturally high T levels would be poor responders to a testosterone cycle since there receptors are even more saturated then. I just don't see it happening.
You missed my point, I wrote joe normal has 7mg of test flowing through his body every single day, Fred notest takes trt, he takes his shot on monday and now fred notest has 200mg slowly tapering through his system, it is most certainly not going to be going through his system at 7mg a day, it will be much higher until it tapers out. Take a look at any aas spreadsheet that shows peak concentration and then the taper. It is not the same with normal levels. they are peaked at 7mg a day, being higher in the morning to dropping to 4. I take a shot of prop for my therapy which there is a reason most endos do not use it, I have 100mg in my system that slowly drops to zero in a 48 hour window so I am not on a pshysiological dose, it is supra.
Their are other reasons to come off over then just receptor saturation. High cholesterol, thick blood, the use of a synthetic hormones in the body, ancillary and other drugs, water retention, other effects on the body. TRT or natural with pct, it's good to take some time off all the drugs. Let the body cleanse everything out. Cant be supercharged all the time. Just my .02
Very informative, thanksbfor posting! Was especially interesting to hear the take on crashing. I had never looked at it that way. All good stuff here.
I think its important to understand that this is information geared towards bodybuilders. I would guess 80% of board members are NOT bodybuilders, but simply normal folks with a workout hobby (like myself). Average gym goers shouldnt be using bodybuilder type methods to cycle IMO. Take it easy if youre not getting paid to look stage ready.
bigurielWait what are the scientific sources for this again?
Corrected it for you.
I always watch his stuff. Not sure on how cleaning out the receptors works if someone is on trt though. Sounds like they won't clean out at all....
TRT is definitely an exception to the rule depending on how low you are to begin with in my opinion. I have been on TRT now for almost 4 years and every cycle I do is always test based except the one off where I try something new and there is growth but I chalk that up to the new aas I tried at that time. Other times I had a blah cycle. I have never gone above 700 a week total because I'm not a competitor and I don't have time to manage side effects. I have myself gone 3 weeks without injecting my TRT dose just to see how I would feel and it was not a roller coaster of emotions but a low energy. I think it's the ones who take over 800 or more a week and put themselves in a supra physiological state that suffer more due to receptor saturation then the ones who take 500 or less in a physiological state. But what do I know.
That makes sense to me and I agree with you.
Very valid points about blood work . How do you know unless you get it done
Remember the good old days when we talked about receptor saturation?
Deff now our days are spent holding there hands and answering the same questions over and over and over .