+ 1 First Cycle Feedback / Checklist ( Appreciate any feedback from people with experince)
Hi All,
So I have been putting this off for a year and finally took the plunge. I would appreciate any feedback / advice or a quick check in case I made a mistake somewhere before starting ( I already have everything but can adjust if needed) :
First Cycle
Age: 40 / No kids but might
2 years of gym
Gyno since childhood
Height: 6.2 feet
Weight: 225 pounds (All fat in the stomach area )
Body fat %: 30-35% (based on images)
Daily Caloric Intake: 2200 calories (deficit to lose weight)
Blood work Test levels:
Testosterone,F/WklyBd+T LC/MS
Testost., F+W Bound 152.4 ng/dL 40.0-250.0
Testosterone, Total, LC/MS 506.4 ng/dL 264.0-916.0
Testost., % Free+Weakly 30.1 % 9.0-46.0
Cycle Information (20 weeks)
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300mg of Testosterone (Test) per week
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Supplies: 4 x 10ml (300mg/ml) Test E
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Dosage: 0.5ml every 3.5 days (150mg Test E3.5D) = 300mg Weekly
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Needles: 18 Gauge / 25 Gauge + alcohol swabs
During Cycle
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HCG : 1000 IU per week
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Supplies: 4 x 5000 IU (Mix with 2ml bac water = 20 x 250 IU per vial)
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Dosage: 250 IU 4x a week (micro dosing to control estrogen side effects in case of hcg aromatization)
Aromatase Inhibitor (AI)
- Aromasin: 12.5mg x 40
Post-Cycle Therapy (PCT)
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Nolvadex: 8 weeks (10mg daily)
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Supplies: 2 x (20mg x 42ct)
General Questions (Based on Wiki/Online Research):
1.Due to my history and body fat, I expect to have estrogen (E2) side effects due to either Test aromatization or HCG use or both. Should I start AI right away or wait for side effects?
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Will I need to have more Aromasin on hand?
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Do you have any recommendations or adjustments for my cycle plan?
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Is 20 weeks a good cycle length and does it effect recovery and PCT if I did 30 weeks?
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According to my doctor my Testosterone levels are average ? are they really average or low?
Thank you
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Sorry sir but the full plan is poorly written. Doses, hcg, and bad post cycle therapy.
You need to knock that bodyfat at least in half before starting cycle like others have mentioned. Aromatization will be way to high and with existing gyno you will be a miserable mess. Also keep in mind steroids are not fat burners. Lot better and safer alternatives out there to torch fat than steroids.
https://www.eroids.com/forums/general/general-talk/scientific-proof-lowe...
Longer and lower dosage isn't safer. 300mg will shut you down just as hard as 500mg will and the longer you are shut down the greater the chance of not recovering. This risk is even greater the older we get so you have a double-edged sword working against you. Cap cycle at 12 weeks when your deicide to run it to maximize the chance of recovery if you sitll want to have kids at some point. I can also pretty much guarantee that the PCT you have laid out will fail and you will not recover if you do that so you better research on proper PCT protocols.
I appreciate you pointing the cycle length but why do you think My PCT will fail ? is it because it's missing Clomid? or a dosage issue? (I will be running HCG through the whole cycle)
Where did you come up with 8wks of nolva at 10mg? That isn't going to do anything for you. Why no clomid?
https://www.reddit.com/r/steroids/wiki/thecycle/pct
https://www.reddit.com/r/steroids/wiki/your_first_cycle
https://www.reddit.com/r/sarmssourcetalk/comments/11e2394/nolvadex_and_c...
If you prefer not to go through the whole thing , below is how I decided on this PCT: ( the important stuff as to why not use two SERMS ( at least to someone like me high body fat % / History of Gyno/ high chance of E2 sides/ Keeping the option for kids/ Using HCG through the whole cycle)
1) What all this means is that Clomid potentially will work in varying degrees as an Estrogen at the pituitary gland, triggering the negative feedback loop and reducing the output of Testosterone stimulating gonadotropins (LH and FSH). This is a problem during post cycle therapy, which is a period in which individuals are trying to recover their HPTA function rather than halt it even further. Ideally, one would want a SERM that exhibits almost 100% Estrogen antagonistic effects on the pituitary gland.
In addition to all this, vision sides are common with Clomid and could may cause irreversible changes.18 Nolvadex may potentially cause some vision sides as well,19 but they are known to be far more prominent in Clomid than Nolvadex.16 More on Side Effects below.
2)Studies have demonstrated that 150mg of Clomid (Clomiphene Citrate) administered daily raised endogenous Testosterone levels of 10 healthy males by approximately 150%, while incidentally, 20 mg of Nolvadex (Tamoxifen Citrate) daily raised endogenous Testosterone levels by the same amount. It is very evident here that Clomid is very effective for this purpose, but Nolvadex seems to be a more cost-effective choice seeing as though it is more effective than Clomid when compared mg for mg. In the same study, they directly examined the effects of Nolva and Clomid on the pituitary. They infused the men with 100mcg of GnRH and then measured LH output from the pituitary.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/640052/
The men taking Nolvadex at 20 mg/day had a significantly increased LH response to GnRH. In contrast, the men taking Clomid had reduced LH output, a decreased sensitivity to GnRH. The researchers stated that "a role of the intrinsic estrogenic activity of Clomid which is practically absent in Tamoxifen (Nolva) seems the most probable explanation."
Likewise, Clomid actually has been studied to exhibit Estrogen agonist effects at the pituitary in vitro.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6781360
What all this means is that Clomid potentially will work in varying degrees as an Estrogen at the pituitary gland, triggering the negative feedback loop and reducing the output of Testosterone stimulating gonadotropins (LH and FSH).
Clomid has also been proven to cause potentially permanent vision damage. Thread carefully if you use it.
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamaophthalmology/article-abstract/641103
In all studies involving Nolvadex, for doses used to stimulate endogenous Testosterone production, only 20–40 mg daily of Nolvadex was utilized, and it has in fact been shown that doubling the dose to 40 mg or higher will not produce any significant difference in endogenous Testosterone secretion. 20mg maximum
Recent studies have found that even lower doses than traditionally-prescribed are equally as effective, 1-5mg ED as effective as 20mg ED
comparison 1mg, 5mg, 10mg ED. Conclusion was 5mg ED yielded best results and went to phase III trials
comparison of 1mg, 5mg and the standard 20mg. Results were comparable at lower dosages
It has been studied that the longer you are on SERMs, the better your results of stimulating Testosterone.So to prevent unwanted sides as well as potentially achieve better results, it’s suggested to utilize lower dosing over a longer period than 4 weeks.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18692782/
3) "it should be noted that there is some controversy on whether using two SERMs at once is beneficial or not.
This is one of the explanations that Dr. Scally has given:
Clomid acts as an estrogen, rather than an anti-estrogen, by sensitizing pituitary cells to the action of GnRH. Although tamoxifen is almost as effective as Clomid in binding to pituitary estrogen receptors, tamoxifen has little or no estrogenic activity in terms of its ability to enhance the GnRH-stimulated release of LH. The estrogenic action of Clomid at the pituitary represents a unique feature of this compound and that tamoxifen may be devoid of estrogenic activity at the pituitary level.
Some strongly disagree with Dr. Scally's reasoning behind the use of Clomid. What he is describing here is believed to be "estrogen priming," the concept that estrogen makes the pituitary more sensitive to GnRH from the hypothalamus, so that more LH is released for a given GnRH stimulus. This is well known to occur in females leading up to ovulation. Unlike females, however, men don't have a preovulatory period or spikes in LH. The research is fairly clear that estrogen priming does not occur in males. For starters, take a look at an authoritative reference work like Grossman's Clinical Endocrinology, which states (pg. 99):
Progesterone, acting synergistically with oestrogens, exerts negative feedback on the hypothalamus during the luteal phase, thus limiting GnRH pulsatility and slowing LH pulse frequency. The mechanism of positive oestrogen feedback at the time of the LH surge has been much debated. There is now evidence that enhancement of both hypothalamic GnRH pulse generator activity and pituitary responsiveness to GnRH are involved. All species so far studied have shown an increased 'self-priming' effect of GnRH on the pituitary during the preovulatory period... In males, the situation is more straightforward. Since LH surges do not occur, only negative feedback effects are relevant. testosterone (and its active metabolite dihydrotestosterone, DHT) exerts major suppressive effects on both LH and FSH secretion, largely by inhibiting the GnRH pulse frequency generator, but possibly also by direct pituitary actions. Oestrogens in the male reduce pituitary responsiveness to GnRH.
That states clearly that there is no priming in males, only negative feedback. The last emboldened sentence in this quote directly contradicts Dr. Scally's quote above. If Clomid were to produce estrogenic action in the pituitary, it would only serve to inhibit LH secretion.
Grossman's statement is corroborated by the more recent research on the specific effects of androgens and estrogen on the pituitary and hypothalamus of healthy men. Here, it was shown that estrogenic action at the pituitary has an inhibitory effect on LH output. In other words, estrogen decreases pituitary sensitivity to GnRH. Estrogen does not produce positive feedback as seen in estrogen priming in females. The paper stated in its conclusion that: "These data confirm previous work from our group which ... showed [estrogen] has both hypothalamic and pituitary sites of negative feedback in the male." In fact, "negative feedback at the pituitary requires aromatization," as testosterone itself doesn't produce negative feedback at the pituitary.
4) The positive estrogen feedback was found to be a relatively sex-specific reaction of the hypothalamo-hypophyseal system in rats as well as in human beings. It is dependent--most of all--on the estrogen convertible androgen level during sexual brain differentiation, but also on an estrogen priming effect in adulthood. The lower the estrogen convertible androgen or primary estrogen level during brain differentiation, the higher is the evocability of a positive estrogen action on LH secretion in later life. In clinical studies, we were able to induce a positive estrogen feedback on LH secretion in most intact homosexual men in clear-cut contrast to intact hetero- or bisexual men. These findings were strongly confirmed by Gladue and associates.
In other words, estrogen levels during brain development are responsible for the sex-specific differences in gonadotrophin secretion and estrogen feedback at the pituitary. The important point of this research is that males (with the exception of homosexuals) were not found to have any positive feedback from estrogen. Those results that were "strongly confirmed."
Finally, there's this research (that was referenced above), which couldn't have been any more relevant. It directly examined the effects of Nolva and Clomid on the pituitary of human males. They infused the men with 100 mcg of GnRH and then measured LH output from the pituitary. The men taking Nolvadex at 20 mg/day had a significantly increased LH response to GnRH. In contrast, the men taking Clomid had reduced LH output, a decreased sensitivity to GnRH. The researchers stated that "a role of the intrinsic estrogenic activity of Clomid which is practically absent in Tamoxifen seems the most probable explanation."
Glad you are booksmart and it is nice you are doing some research. Now you need some street smarts. Come back in 8 wks after running your 10mg of nolva and we will set you up with a PCT that will work.
This has nothing to do with being being book smart or street smart, anyone who is going to take something like Testosteron, HCG, AI's ,PEDs , Trenbolone ( which is made for veterinary use ) .. etc, that are going to effect your hormones for ever and might have and have an ever lasting side effects on your body should do some research first, that is just common sense. There is no cookie cutter dosage of compounds that fits all. I did my research and decided which risks I am willing to take and came for feedback from people who might know more than me and might point out things that I might be doing wrong instead of just jumping on the bro PCT cycle.
Thank you all, I really appreciate your feedback! Although I was looking to start my cycle in the hopes that it would help with the weight loss and muscle gain, I have a feeling that any side effects due to aromatization are going to be related to fatty tissue. Ill work on dropping down before starting, and in the mean time ill get a new blood work with estrogen included.
By the way, does any of the stuff I currently have expire or lose potency?
It is not milk, it will be good for a long time.
Your bf is too high, I would lean down before pulling the trigger
Work on diet first. Lower your bf % and you’ll run into less issues down the road. Steroids isn’t the magic pill, diet is a large part of it as well.
You're test # seem to be in a good range. Did you have your estro checked as part of the blood test. Losing weight before cycle would be far more beneficial than just starting a cycle. I'd say get down to 15-20% body fat. Otherwise side effects will be harder to control and identify. You have a good plan just be patient take 6 months and drop a little fat and get diet on point. Post that up and let people help with that.
I only have experience with TRT, a 300mg wk test dosage is at a point you are going to have issues controlling estrogen. It probably isn’t enough that it would be easy to balance with an AI. 500mg would be a better amount.
If you are looking to have kids in the near future, I would consider just doing a TRT dose around 150mg/wk and taking the HCG and finding a balance without an AI being needed. Anything higher with HCG you probably will see estrogen creeping up but an AI will probably crash it too far.
IMO, you would see good gains on steady TRT dosage and I would focus on getting the weight down before a full cycle so you get the most out of it.
I honestly debated TRT vs the standard 500 test cycle for a long time, and with kids still an option I need to keep everything online. Based on everything I read, I settled on a 300 cycle for a longer period to the get the most of first cycle and milk it for as long as possible while keeping sides manageable without having to deal with AI. Based on my history with Gyno and the high percentage of fatty tissue I feel that I might be more susceptible to aromatization and E2 sides. While this is all just my speculations based on everything I read, 300 with micro dosing Hcg to reduce atrophy and stay close to baseline seemed more manageable option for my body and if everything is fine I can taper up to 400 or even extend to 24 weeks, if not taper down to a TRT dose. My main goal is to avoid Side effects and having to deal with crashed E2 from using AI and trying to find a sweet spot.
I take 200mg a week split up in daily shots that puts me up around 1100 peak test and my estrogen is about where it needs to be. With HCG on top of that, I had severe bloat and high estrogen sides. I gave up HCG since I dont need to worry about kids. Everyone is different obviously.
Don’t underestimate the benefits that keeping peak “natural” testosterone levels will give you. Testosterone levels normally fluctuate with the daily stresses of life and natural test levels usually are dropping throughout the week.
I have gotten good steady lean gains with trt doses and in my opinion it would be a good way to see how your body reacts to test cyp. 300mg a week isnt going to be enough of a jump up to make it worth it imo and I think you would yoyo your ai dosage too much. I think if you are looking to run long term you should try to keep peak natural/peak levels. Also it should help retain muscle when you cut.
Just my two cents.
Honest feedback would be to shift a big chunk of body fat before you even consider running a cycle. You should be aiming to hit 15% before steroids are a viable solution.