+ 2 500mg test may not seem like a good idea for a first cycle
I've heard stories of guys getting gyno at small doses of just 200-250mg test e. Although its athelete TRT dose, I still feel like 200-250mg is more than enough for a first timer with detailed bloodwork in place.
Even though 500mg test is the standard, I still feel like its good to start at 200mg and titrate up from there on a monthly basis depending on how the body is reacting. I could be wrong though. Of course the guys getting gyno at 250mg test probably had high body fat percentages so theyre likely to armoatise a lot harder.
What do you guys think?
Could 500mg work a whole lot better with daily administration and various estrogen control factors in place other than an AI? I'm looking to get 8000mg of Test myself with bloods as well. Don't wish to use an AI but not super aware of other ways to control estrogen sides.
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Valhalla0411I just finished my first cycle, ran 600mg test e/500mg deca per week. I didn't have any estrogen/progesterone related problems till week 6 but the most I got was sensitive nipples and my quad muscles would pull pretty easy. Half tab of letrozole every 2 days for me worked wonders. It all depends on your body and how it reacts.
200-250? Naaah start at 400+. 250mg is a low cruise for most. Plus 250 might be too excessive for you but not for the next person.
Im lost on the last part of 8000mg. Holy cow!
Supernova283Pretty sure he means 8g of test for his whole cycle.
EatClenTrenHard...yes, its for the whole cycle 500x16weeks. 250mg is definitely a cruise and merely athlete TRT, I too would like to make the most out of my shutdown and use 500mg for 16 weeks but i think its good advise to titrate up and see how you feel, I could be a genetic outlier and just get bitch tits at 200mg test e, you never know.
What is commented below is the 100% truth.
I've always said that 500mg isn't always needed at start for every individual. Get bloods and troubleshoot from there. If you're getting results using less than 500mg/wk without any sides then you're winning big time my man.
I have lots of guys on 100-120mg of test Cyp per week for TRT and their numbers are 900-1000ng/dl trough. There is absolutely no reason imo to start with 500mg. Thats bro shit. Get your labs done 4-6 weeks after starting say 200mg/week for a first cycle and assess changes from there.
Imo 250mg is a waste of shutting down your natural production for some mediocre muscle gains. Also I've heard of people needing 200mg test a week on trt for their test levels to be in the natty range. Meaning 250mg would not be as effective as 500mg.
Also the risk vs reward at 250mg is not balanced. 500mg test carries relatively little extra risk over 250mg, and has a bigger reward.
Shutdown is shutdown, doesn't matter if it's 50mg or 1 gram. Do you really want to risk a lifetime of trt for 250mg of test?
But this the thing though...total shutdown and suppressed hormone levels are different and that's been documented. I'm under the belief that the amount of a particular hormone and how long under that hormone contributes to suppression and eventually total shutdown. Its definitely a process. Some disagree though. As far as 250mg..lol don't expect to come out looking like Hercules
I agree 100%, I know anecdotally that its harder to recover from test and deca than just test alone. Ive heard off guys dealing for months with deca dick after coming off.
I also believe the longer the supression lasts the harder it will be to recover.
But I don't think the suppression from a 12 week cycle of 250mg test would be harder to recover from than the suppression from a 500mg 12 week cycle of test. I also don't think its worth to use 250mg test over 500mg test just to mitigate side effects. Thats were my risk vs reward argument comes in.
That's true. I follow ya. And that damn deca has a long half life plus it's metabolites linger around for over a year. A few guys I lifted with in competition got busted failing drug tests using deca.
Lol imagine having stopped deca a year ago to get busted a year later. I'd be pissed lmao.
And they were very much pissed!!!!! Lol
EatClenTrenHard..."Also the risk vs reward at 250mg is not balanced. 500mg test carries relatively little extra risk over 250mg, and has a bigger reward."
Could you please share some light on this? I thought people are more likely to aromatise at 500mg than 250mg... Are you saying that the chances are not vastly different than one another? I know its not a mathematical double but I still thought the difference in aromatization speed would be quite significatint
Aromatisation is part of taking testosterone and is not bad if its not excessive and or leading to side effects such as gyno. Actually estrogen is neuro protective and has other benefits so its a good thing to aromatise and have estrogen in your body till a certain extent.
The chances of excessive aromatisation are higher on 500mg but not that high that you should choose 500mg over 250mg only based on the risk of aromatisation.
This is what I mean with the risk vs reward is not balanced. Most of the risks are the same using 250mg vs 500mg. Any other risks, such as excessive aromatisation, can be combatted by doing bloodwork mid cycle.
A person will never know how much of an estro converter they are until they have those bloods @eatclentrenhard Guessing and going by feelings maybe good but not 100% accurate. Just like folks are sensitive to testosterone they too can be sensitive to estro. Someone may convert higher at 250mg than someone else.
How is your diet ? How long you been training consistently for ?
If both if these ^^ are on point i would do 500mg and take blood test 6 week in to dial estro if needed
The best would be to post a pic of you so i can give best advice
Respect
Dope
Your first problem is declaring there is a standard for dosing. I like 600mg or so a week. Others handle 400mg a week about the same. Unfortunately, there is no one size fits all here. Listen to some of the older guys on here. My first time I started at 400mg, then adjusted to 500mg half way. Next go round I did 500mg and adjusted to 600mg. I did that up to about 750 just based on pinning frequency and noticed no real impact outside of weird side specific to me… body temp, lack of sleep, etc… I think blood work is paramount for success though. The mirror can only tell you so much.
A cycle an actual cycle of testosterone at 250mg per week is a waste of time and money. I keep seeing people saying that 250mg ew is enough for a first cycle. How many of you have ever run a 250mg cycle made solid gains and kept them? Why would you shut your self down require PCT to get slightly more test than your body produces naturally. At these silly dosages the risks outweigh the benefits 10 fold. Maybe I’ll get some negative feedback for this comment but it’s the truth.
It really depends on your goal. I’m on TRT 100mg a week subq and my levels stay around 450 from sub 200. Without knowing a base line, you really have no clue.
That negative is not actually me mate I’m enjoying our conversation and I have give you a thumbs up to every interaction we have had here. It was pointed out that I had given you a negative and I thought I must of done by mistake but turns out I hadn’t I gave the correct thumbs up I intended to
lol I didn’t even notice. It’s all good! Conversation has been really pleasant. I have fat fingers too.
To be doing a cycle on 250mg is pointless. Your running 100mg and your levels stay around 450 then you want to be taking more a level of 450 is the bottom end of what’s considered normal and some docs will prescribe TRT for someone who’s levels are 450. They say normal range is 450 -650 over there in the states but optimal levels are 600-800 … a normal man in good working order in his mid 20 to early 30s should be 600+ and that’s probably around where you would be on 200mg a week. So taking 250mg not much more and is that worth shutting your self down and going through pct no it’s not. On cycle you want to be over 800 or it’s not worth it and your going need more than 250mg a week to get there. I stand by what I say 250mg a week risk for gain is not worth it for a cycle.
May I ask was your neg to wildling really necessary?
I tried to click on it to remove it and it added another so I removed it and it went back down to 1 I then looked at my profile and I haven’t give a single negative to anyone ever so it looks like I actually clicked the right one for thumbs up and that negative is from someone else. Please correct me if I’m wrong because it’s not intentional but It’s not on my profile and I can’t remove it so I’m assume it’s somebody else
I am sorry I have big hands and I’m on my iPhone that was supposed to be a thumbs up I’m enjoying have a good conversation with him and there’s absolutely no negativity. I will change that immediately. Thanks for pointing it out to me
Looking at your profile picture, I believe you lol. I just thought it was a great exchange between the both of you with great points and didn’t think there was any hostility. For future notice, you can just click the thumbs down and it will be removed. Now I’d also like to add some input, I actually enjoy test only cycles between 3-400 because anything more just gives me high estro sides and I typically don’t like running an AI because it makes me feel like shit so I’ll run my test around that range. If I was running another compound like Tren or primo- 250 is all I need to really promote quality muscle tissue. It’s all relative to how people respond. Most of my family:friends who are running cycles for the first time usually respond very well at those doses.
EatClenTrenHard...OP here, really appreciate the awesome info @wilding, deeman, stokes, simon, dope. So last week I did get pre cycle bloodwork or else I was not going to be able to find my highest tolerable test e dose after which gyno troubles occur. Defenitely want estrogen high, but going to run 4-6 estrogen tests to see if everything is fine before titrating up from 300mg to 500mg.
So my estrogen (Estradiol) levels are 47 pg/ml and my testosterone levels are at 337 ng/dl... Not really good results but this is 80% just due to my bad lifestyle (sleeping less 5-6 hours a day on average, workaholic, not eating enough, and probably jacking off is doing a lot of damage too although I never rly consume or even like porn.
Im kind of already happy with my physique, just going to run one or two (yes I know the meme lol) cycles to get closer to my genetic potential and then call it quits. Again everybody says this and keeps hopping on more but I really don't see the need, always been good with the women and not going to compete so not much point in doing a cycle really. Nevertheless, going to try to stop being stupid and use a bunch of ancillaries like NAC, TUDCA, fish oil, and an awesome diet to further control estrogen levels. The goal is to never use 12.5mg aromasin/week ideally, just keep it on hand. Because the more AI you use, the more neurotoxic your cycle becomes. Kind of insane how doctors mix in sucidial AIs into TRT vials, in that regard.
Ive been weightlifting for about a year and right now Training is pretty on point, with a push pull leg split, focusing on the db incline bench press and the dumbell row. Kind of weird how my body has been reacting to training last few months. My weight doesnt seem to go up even though im at a caloric surplus, but my body fat is reducing significantly from below 15 to below 13 now. In about a few weeks i reduced my waist size from 32 to almost 30 now. My strength numbers continually go up and overall feel great about my physique and time at the gym. Obviously going to tone it down on cycle to ease up on my tendons/joints.
Sorry for long post guys, really enjoyed everybody's responses on this old post, thanks!
EatClenTrenHard...and also forgot to mention that pinning 5 days a week is the plan with 27G 1/2 inch needles. Derek from MPMD uses 29G 1/2 inch shallow intermuscular but my country really fucks with us when it comes to needles and syringes. ordered 8000mg test e a few days. quite excited.
29 gauge is the way to go. Even better than27 In my IMO. You ever think to try some GH?
EatClenTrenHard...Probably not going to touch GH directly, its expensive and can cause complications but yeah 1-2 iu of pharma grade HGH is relatively safe. I think i can make better gains on Test Deca var. probably wrong but I heard HGH ages you quite quickly so not really interested... But GHRP -2 looks kind of nice.
Unfortunately my country doesnt sell 29G 1/2inch or 1 inch... its always 29G 5-8mm... crazy.
In a perfect world, I agree 800-900 is great. However some people are more sensitive to what they have, which is me. I was/am functioning great at 450, losing weight, gaining mass, etc… but I also key in on my diet and training. Right now I’m 500-600mg a week. I expect my bloods after week 8 to be 1200 plus. At the moment, sleep is weird and my body temperature is higher than normal. That’s my body reacting to the higher levels.
Here’s a question for you… what are your thoughts on prop 75-100mg EOD. Many people run it with excellent results. I love that shit. You’re at 262.5-350mg a week. That’ll push me above 1000 on my blood work, I know because I have tested at that before.
Either way, until he gets bloodwork to find a baseline... we don't have a real clue on this individuals situation.
Great point my brother. You hit the nail on the head mentioning his bloodwork. Like you said, some like you and I are a little more sensitive to testosterone. Lol as far as prop at 250-350 /wk with EOD pins one would definitely feel that I would think. I hate EOD pinning so I haven't used that much prop a week but the amounts I've used I definitely felt. But what I love is the fact that prop doesn't seem to be as painful as it was in the past. Damn back then it hurt.
I don’t like prop my self unless I’m running up to a show and want to run the test up to 14-10 days out and drop it quick other than that I see no point to it more frequent injections and more oil due to the lower doses per ml makes no sense to me but maybe that’s just me
I get it it lol... it can literally be a pain in the ass. I'd rather play long ball myself as well.
Valhalla0411I think it just depends on the person and how sensitive they are, I'm running 600mg test e and 500mg deca, the most I get is sensitive puffy nipples, but I dialed in my ai dose and I don't have a problem. .25mg of letrozole every 2 days.
I would definitely say that 500mg is excessive for a first cycles. Even at a perfect replacement dose you have an edge over naturals because by injecting a depot of test in your muscles you have around the clock test release unlike naturals which have a pulse of test a day which lasts several hours.
I would suggest starting at 250 Test Enanthate a week with proviron 50mg every day split into two doses. This way you will have estrogen control in place, through the proviron as well as elevated free testosterone levels. After 2 weeks get a blood test see your estrogen, total test, free test, prolactin if your testosterone isn’t at substantially super physiological levels, increase the dose and repeat the aforementioned.
I’m a fan of the minimum effective dose and I feel like this protocol will have the smallest impact in your biomarkers, well at least it worked for my clients in the past. At the end of the day gear use is highly personalized you should check and see what works for you, I remember way back in the day I would take 400mg of test a week and I wouldn’t have any aromatization issues at 26% bf yet I had friends that would run into gyno issues at 250mg with visible abs, it really depends on the person.
Listen you run into gyno issues at 250mg a week then you already have gyno issues and probably I nice set of moobs .
The thing is, at least my opinion, is how you want your results to be compared to side effects you can tolerate. I mean, I’m a believer in minimal dosages for what most of us do, very few here are involved in competitions so massive dosages are just ridiculous for recreational purposes in my opinion. But, and it’s a big but, is you’re going to want to take enough to get your desired result. Will 200mg a week give you an edge? (Keeping in mind we’re all different) it more than likely will. If you have a naturally high testosterone level, you may barely notice anything and you’re not gaining much at the risk of shutting yourself down. If 500mg a week seems hefty, and for some it may be, I wouldn’t recommend going below 350mg, and I run very conservative dosages. Bottom line is you want to make your efforts worth it while taking the stuff, 200mg a week just isn’t worth the other efforts that come along with it do do things safely.
EatClenTrenHard...agreed. yes 300 mg might be a good starting amount just to see how your body reacts. eventually titrating up to 500mg is quite important to get the most bang for your buck... i mean i am going to be shutting down for a while haha
@eatclentrenhard @Drexyl great points +1.
The key is different strokes for different folks. I'm constantly telling folks no need to generalize everyone. And I'll keep saying that. And Drex I couldn't agree more...massive dosages are just not needed for recreational purposes. Can't justify that.
This is more about should someone who doesn't tolerate Testosterone that well be running 500mg per week rather than should the average first time steroid user be using 500mg/wk imo. I think a more appropriate question should be should the average first time steroid user even be running Steroids? Does he know how much protein to consume a day? Are his lifts at a respectable level already? Does he know how to train properly? Is he focused enough to run steroids for 10 weeks and not be using bloody ridiculous things like recreational drugs on weekends or drinking alcohol? Getting back to the original question though - Yes I think if you are shutting down your natural testosterone level for a period of time and laying out hundreds of dollars on Test and PCT products etc then it should be for a noticeable change in physique and body muscle which is what that level of Test will bring about.
This
tpharmacy testosterone will kick you in the butt even at 250 mg per week.. you have to take that into account. and also the tendency towards aromatization which is specific to each person. hence the interest in taking blood Work
At Eatclen Trenhard this is definitely good advice by @officer34. Alot of times I see guys being generalized ....no we all are different to some extent. Different strokes for different folks.
EatClenTrenHard...Going to use para pharma test... My buddy said use 500mg EW but that seems too harsh for someone who doesn't wanna use AI
Why don't you want to use an AI? In the grand scheme of things (we are pumping mega doses of test afterall) it is not that big of a deal and allows you to run a relatively side effect free cycle.
EatClenTrenHard...Thanks for the tip bro. So I didnt want to run an AI (just keep it on hand) is because of how hard it can nuke estrogen. I feel like the biggest danger to a test only cycle is when estrogen seems to keep fluctuating from low to high. That plays a large role in acne as well. Plus such a large amount of androgens can become quite neurotoxic if you dont allow the body to regulate the test by converting it into estrogen. I understand 12.5mg aromasin once a week helps once you see a side effect, but just to over-ensure the safety precautions, I would like to just keep estrogen high and not risk it getting too low. High estrogen is geenrally not a bad thing. theres some debate as to what causes acne - high estrogen or fluctuating estrogen. but yeah, i agree with you totally, im just overthinking the safety aspect of a potential 16week test e cycle
I think that's the right mentality when it comes to estrogen. Nuking estrogen is NOT a good thing at all! I'd rather be slightly elevated than totally nuked of estrogen. I lowered myself to much one time and that's all it took, never again. I felt horrible, I felt like a damn zombie lol. Alot of times even before looking at bloods guys will use an Ai. That's were a potential problem could occur. But yes estrogen in the right amount is needed by the body.
EatClenTrenHard...youre absolutely right. have biweekly estrogen tests lined up from week 4 onwards when the test concentration finally starts kicking in. most cycle dudes use AI as a precaution instead of a solution. Nuking your estrogen before it even becomes a problem is the most common issue i can see that enhanced dudes be running into. A rule of thumb is to pop 12.5mg aromasin once your get itchy or watery at the bottom. aromasin removes over 90% of estrogen in 24 hours so its super potent but still easy on the organs. arimidex is a monster lol because it can affect organs and will also lead to estrogen rebound once you stop using it
I agree AIs can be a double edged sword, but why knock it before you try it? Its no different than going full blow with an oral AAS. I can't take them because my joints go to shit within days.