posted Wed, 01/09/2013 - 09:09
3404
On test and Libido is gone. weinner is broke
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49 - 18bf 200 test cyp every 10days 300 iu HCG every 10 Been on hrt since 4/2012 the sex drive went through the roof after the first month and then settled down and kind of leveled off.the last month Jr decided he did not want to give 100% and was a little less then rock hard and climax was somewhat less then desireable. Told the doc, he thought estrogen was the problem- ran the bloodwork things comeback great. ---any Ideas
- i want to start a blast but scared to bc jr might go into hibernation and not wake up
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Thanks for the topic as I am experiencing the same problems. On 250 test cyp weekly with hcg and an AI. Started in Feb,sex drive was through the roof for first week but has been basically nonexistent since
By the way, did you have these problems pre HRT?
NO i did not
Post your lab data. There is no ideal dose. I will say though that you are dosing far too infrequently.
You should be running your labs just before your injection. We are only concerned about trough levels. For most people a trough level of 700+ will work. Levels below 550 are associated with increased risk of death that is associated with heart disease, stroke and diabetes.
Libido is primarily driven by brain levels of estrogen. The ideal range is 22-30 pg/mL. It's not a problem to have higher levels of T if estrogen is in check.
Make sure the doc is checking SHBG, Total T and if you can talk him into it - Androstanediol Glucuronide (fist metabolite of DHT). Free T provides little value as it's unstable in serum, fluctuates wildly and has an unusually low reference range at most labs. This will serve to support your docs erroneous notion that low test levels are healthy. Unfortunately when it comes to endocrinology most physicians forget everything they learned about the scientific method and evidence based medicine.
Most men respond very well initially to 200 mg of Test Cyp per week. Some notice a slight fade around day 5. Upping the dose slightly seems to take care of that. If you are responding well to the hcg, a good starting dose is 250 IU twice per week. This combination may put you over the high end of the reference range (trough level). If your doc is well informed and knows what he is doing it won't matter as long as your hematocrit and hemoglobin are stable and the clinical picture is ok.
Force him to treat you and not the lab data. Remember, the purpose of the lab data is to confirm a diagnosis and to catch problems that you can't detect from the history and exam. Once the diagnosis is made and treatment starts, it's impossible to fine tune your therapy with lab data. If he tries that it will be like watching a dog chase it's tail.
lab data is posted below
How many days after your last injection of T were the labs drawn?
10 days, the day of my next injection
That's proper. Your lab values look pretty good. Your Total T is not optimal for most men (700) and your SHBG may be a bit high (I loaned out my best reference and can't verify that constituent).
My best guess is that the problem is your injections are spaced out too far and/or your dose is too low resulting in deficient DHT.
The mechanics of an erection are mediated by DHT. It increases Increase androgen receptors in sexual organ tissue and stimulates the parsympathetic nervous system.
I suspect that you had good results initially when DHT was unchecked. As you reached steady state and testosterone was metabolized, your estradiol came up (even though it's not really high now) which would also force SHBG to increase. This of course would make less free test available and more estradiol to neutralize T/DHT. The new result being less free testosterone now than you had during the first month of treatment.
If possible ask the doc to try one of the following:
Change doing frequency to 1/week w/ no decrease in dose; or
Same dosing frequency but increase dose to 250 mg; or
Try Zewi's dosing schedule.
You could also try a small amount of arimidex (0.25 mg 2 times per week). This would lower SHBG and estradiol, bring up free T and force metabolism toward DHT. The downside is that it will further tank your libido. I would try this as a secondary line of treatment.
before they give me an AI he wants me to take 100 mg of zinc/day to see if that helps- thanks
Zinc and magnesium will help if your endogenous hormone synthesis is poor. In other words, it might help if you are deficient in one of these minerals and not responding to the hcg.
I still say your T dose is a bit low.
The endocrine society did some work on libido and found that it peaks at a dose of 300 mg/week of Tcyp.
zewiYes 150mg a week which is the normal TRT does and should be giving in two shots a week to improve stable levels. 150mg a week is about 4times more than your body would have every produced at your peek.
So yes you need an AI---but usually a doctor will not subscribe it unless you 1 ask, or get test for your estro levels.
A normal young man will produce a total of about 6 milligrams (mg), or 6 hundredths of a gram, per day.
Your producing to much estro and DHT you weinner is going to die..
Just because your estro levels came back normal does not mean its not an estro problem..
We will keep it simple, instead of going into the science.
When taking test only.. we will keep it simple it increases protein syntheses and it also converts to DHT and Estor.
So your taking 200test c every 10 days.. which in reality should be taking every 100mg Monday and 50mg Thursday or 50mg Monday 50mg Wednesday 50mg Thursday...
So lets break this down simpler.
WHen blood levels are not equal your tend to get into a tug of war with test vs estro. lets add the science.
A small percentage, just 0.2%, of testosterone is converted to estradiol(Estor)by the enzyme aromatase. This may seem insignificant but estradiol is 100 times more potent at the cell receptor site than testosterone.
So what is happening when your bloods are not stable and consistent near the receptor site. Estor starts to win..
So simply get an AI.. and than also change when you dose.
Hope this helped. i tried to keep it simple and fast.
So--really your body is going back and forth.. High test low estro --high estro lower test---
Keep it stable your body doesnt like when this are are not.
appreciate the help, which AI and can you recommend a dose
zewiAI Aromison @ 12.5mg EOD or 6.25mg ED or Adex @ .25mg EOD or .25mg EOD.
Advantages of one over the other? - did cycles over 20 yrs ago and none of this was available
zewiAromisn imo
AnonWhat happens if you take a viagra or cialis ?
Have not/never taken so i really dont know -
AnonWell get some and try it, seriously theres nothing wrong with it and just knowing they are in the cupboard sometimes is all the boost in confidence you need. This kind of thing can play games with your mind.
Plus it keeps you in the game while you figure out your body.
Have you tried some prop? It works faster so you can adjust on the fly, leaves system quick if your test levels are not the problem.
AnonIs there anything else goin on in your life, like unusual pressure or stress, is there a psycological factor here ? How is your blood pressure, and how is the prostate ?
BP is great btwn 105-110/65-70 - nothing different - I have taken on occasion a vyvanse 30mg -
Bloods
WBC 6.1 4.0-10.5
RBC 5.20 4.14-5.8
Hemoglobin 16.7 12.6-17.7
Hematocrit 47.9 37.5-51
MCV 92 79-97
MCH 32.1 26.6-33
MCHC 34.9 31.5-35.7
RDW 13.2 12.3-15.4
ALB 4.3 3.4-5.4
Estradiol 29.7 7.6-42.6
SHBG 33.3 16.5-55.9
total test 600 350-960
free test 13 12-15
bloods have been very consistent with total test rangeing fron 530-600 and free 10.5-13
done on 12/26/2012
Total test of 600 is not bad but I think 900 is better.
Honestly I'm stumped brother, my only thought would be upping your test dose on a more frequent schedule, try to keep it stabilized a little better. Hit 250 mg every week integrate an ai, see what that does and then have bloods run again.
thanks- are there an sides from the AI i should be concerned with? What AI and Dosage?Very MUCH appreciate your help.
"A wise man learns from his own mistakes a genius learns from the mistakes of others"
Sorry I replied on the wrong line.
Jump a few lines down.
Estro was my first guess. But if it looks good in the blood test maybe that's not it.
If you have an A.I. on hand, it may not be a bad idea to run it.
Perhaps 200 mg every 10 days isn't enough. Perhaps the first month, you had the existing test levels to build on before the Test C fully suppresed the Natty Test. Once the Natty test was suppressed maybe the 200 mg wasn't enought to get the weiner going.
Where was your test at after the blood test?
Appreciate the response-had NO weiner problems before HTR - what is the downside of taking AI if i really dont need it - dont have any on hand - I gave myself an "extra" 200mg of cyp to see if that helped -i got nothing. I have read everything i can get my hands on - not finding any answers
The down side to taking an ai if you really don't need it would be that your estrogen levels would get to low and you would see the effects of it, for example achy joints. I can always tell when my estrogen is too low because the joints in my lower back start to get his achy feeling and I'm moody as shit. There are quite a few posts here on signs of low estrogen, look for them in the search bar.
I don't think that it would hurt to start out with a low dose of Aromasin, say 6.25 mg e.d and see what that does a long with a more frequent injection schedule, try to shoot for stability.
You also may hit Tread up, that guy will fix your boner when no one else will.
Tread?-drug name member name? lost
Sorry, Tread-m he's a member here, the resident guru. Send him a FR and hit him up.
what he said.. take the ai e3d if you have one.. up your test levels.. sounds like just enough to shut you down..
bloods are good ?????
I will post the bloods when i get home tonight -
total test 600 - 350-950 Free test 12 10.5- 14
All blood work is good-my diet is clean-
Anoni didn't even see that he already ran them. my bad
Anongo get your estrogen levels checked, bro. probably just out of whack. a good AI can fix it, if that's the case. need labs to verify.
My first guess would be estro is not actually under control. What were your levels and when was this test done?
estro levels at 29.7