+ 4 Endo says you almost never need an AI
So I was talking to a a Endocrinologist who is very familiar with aas and runs them himself. He said at his practice they only prescribe an ai as a last resort.
He said this as an example: let’s say your average guy has a T level of 900 and E level of 30 and that’s normal. If your on cycle and T levels are 3,000 and E levels jump to 90 or even higher that it’s fine. He was saying that the average males E runs roughly around 3% of T and it doesn’t matter as long as it’s roughly around 3% it’s fine.
He went on to say that the extra estrogen can’t do anything because there is nothing for it to bind to since you have so much T and only a finite amount of receptors.
He said doesn’t matter what your numbers are. It’s the ratio that matters. Unbound hormones exert ZERO effect on the body. Hormones need to couple to a binding site to actually exert their effects.
Then he went well above my head talking about E1 and E3 pathways and c4 and C16 vs some other pathways and I was like wow did, you lost me.
I told him on my last mini blast my test levels were around 3,000 and estrogen Was 80 and he said totally fine especially if I didn’t have any sides. He also recommended Proviron on most cycles or running Nolvadex with every cycle the whole time. I think Viking and I we’re talking about this years ago on here about how you don’t have to run and ai 9 times out of 10.
When I’m on my trt dose my test is in the 900’s and estro is just under 30. Tbh I never used an ai on any cycle, just Proviron here and there. I did not run any this last blast.
I know a lot of broscience is going to go against this but this doc has me convinced. What say ye?
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On TRT dosages you should never need an AI. If your on a full blown cycle, an AI or SERM can be very beneficial.
Rustyhookerespecially if I didn’t have any sides.
Ya, thats the key right there. Theres folks cant run even mediocre levels of test without letro. So its runnjng bloods and seeing how YOU react.
Nolva lowers igf. Which is why the bodybuilders switched to proper ai usage some 25 yrs ago. Or all the hgh taboo combos went to the dumpster.
Interesting. Few thoughts... If you read the latest literature, you will see that they are finding out in recent years that hormones can activate different types of receptors.
Also, he isn't taking into account the different cascade pathways that cause either conversion to other hormones that cause certain sides, or the cascade routes that cause new cell proliferation... which is good mostly (not with heart) with muscle, but bad with breast tissue, in men.
Also, there are those with, for example, more aromatase than others (often fat versus skinny people) = high aromatisers vs. Low. Or 5areductase causing excess test to shut conversion resulting in baldness in some.
Therefore, his black and white view is incorrect, for a pretty large cross section of humans.
This: "Unbound hormones exert ZERO effect on the body" is wholly inaccurate. Unbound hormones are biologically active by definition. Also the assumption that an unbound hormones cannot do anything would imply... well that none of the stuff works!
Does he mean that, once available receptors are all activated then there is nothing else to activate and the body will metabolize the hormone out? Maybe but there are different metabolic pathways and some hormones like trends wont reduce beyond 1 step and can pool in places like the brain, causing damage for some. So... yeah, inaccurate at a minimum.
Consider also how different we all are...
E.g. asymptomatic low-normal test level people Versus symptomatic mid-level test people.
See that level of 80, fine for you, right?
Titty-a-Rama for me
But also, when I am at 400ish test, I am symptomatic of low test/estro.
For sure we are all different and he did go way above my head with different pathways and the liver and other medical terms that I had no idea about. Obviously he has more knowledge than most since this is his medical expertise so I do agree with a lot of what he said.
He did say this was strictly about people on test. He said that someone who is not on any hormone replacement is a totally different animal. So if someone has naturally high estro and low t and such that this doesn’t apply.
But yes we are all different and have different sensitivity levels.
Well, if you look at the meta research studies they would disagree with him, and often show somewhere around 30% of trt patients need to control estrogen.
So, if you have 2 doctors that disagree? Who do you believe?
Well, the answer is: you!
Google: trt hyperestrogenism
If you want an alternative view!
TBH in general I’ll probably never go over 400 mg of test. I usually cruise at 125 and that puts me in the 900’s so 250 to 300 is more than enough for a blast and I usually add an oral when I blast so it’s definitely more than enough. I’m getting older and have a lot of injuries and other health stuff that has kept me out of the game for a few years as well.
I used to think I had something To prove because I was 6’ 9” and always skinny and I hated it but could never ever gain weight. No matter what, until aas and I went from 235 to over 300lbs at one point. It took me years to get there but I did. I’m older and wiser now and I don’t need to be that dam big. I’m just going to stay leaner and defined. Try to stay around 250. Cutting now from 270 and I fucking hate cutting ;( and unfortunately form not being able to workout for so long I’m skinny fat.
Depends on your bf as well. Just saying there are multiple factors that need to be weighed. But if you are well versed in high e2 and low e2 you know when you need them. I don't need broscience or some Endo. I know when I need it. Actually the provi is a great addition to a cycle imo. I usually end up crashing my e2 instead of raising it. I also keep a healthy dose of test base and prop on hand for crashed e2. +2 for something to talk about. Nice to see you back around slim
Thanks man. Have a little more free time now, as do a lot of people unfortunately. And hell yeah I love me some Proviron. He was of the old school mindset of running Nolvadex with every test cycle as well and tbh I’ve never ran it during a cycle.
Fr sent. I'd love to talk about provi
In general I agree with PPG below. It is highly individual, based on genetics, compounds used, experience level, and body composition. I’ve helped a fair amount of guys with their transition into AAS use, and forced them to get pre cycle bloods before I helped with anything. Some would have damn near no estradiol before they ever started along with sky high test, those are the ones who didn’t need an AI even on their first cycle. These seemed to be the naturally more lean fellows. The larger guys who had naturally lower test and/or higher estradiol had more trouble with estrogen control and side effects in general.
I also noticed anecdotally that the need for an AI seemed to lessen as people became more experienced and upregulated their androgen receptors while losing extra fat, and therefore the extra aromatization. They could then handle not only higher doses (like test at 1g with no AI), but needed even less help controlling sides as well. But if they combined test with nandrolone or used dbol or other extremely wet drugs, there was no getting around the AI.
There are also certain CYP enzymes in the liver responsible for the breakdown and removal of excess hormones, however I’ve only known a small sample size of people with genetic testing done. Of those, the more side effect and estradiol prone guys had deficiencies in those specific enzymes. I believe cyp2d6 as well as another one (maybe 3A4?) were most important for them. I do also agree somewhat the ratio is responsible for a lot of the physical and mental side effects we don’t want, but that ratio is determined by many factors. We also can’t ignore the harmful effect extra water retention from estrogen has on the heart and other organs, or the fact that high estrogen can really screw with some peoples’ moods and energy.
Overall a very interesting topic and I enjoy reading other people’s thoughts on it
Yes it’s very interesting indeed. I honestly didn’t think about adding other compounds. That definitely makes sense. We were specifically talking about test alone. But yeah add some Dbol or some other aromatizing compound and that’s a different story. When I do use orals I stay away from aromatizing compounds and stick with Tbol or SD every now and then.
I don't like Ai's on TRT too! What is your TRT dose? I'm at 160mg a week. 80mg on Wed morning & 80mg on Sat. night. I feel really good, but thinking about going lower to see how Low I can go & feel the same! Was gonna try 100/120mg a week next month & do bloods. I go to 40 on the slin pin each shot to get 80mg of pharmacy grade CYP. So next month I'll just draw to 25/30 on the slin pin. Man....that bottle is gonna last forever! Lol
When I’m on my script it’s same as you, 160 ew. When I use a specific UG lab I use 125 mg ew and get better results. I have verified with blood work. 160 or script is good and puts me in the 700’s but 125 of the UG puts me in the 900’s and I feel amazing on it. Estro stays under 30 on both.
I’m not going to say that an AI is never needed because it definitely has its place in bodybuilding. It is definitely clearly needed for some individuals and then not nearly as much as others. I do believe however that people laying out cycles and just adding it in instantly without knowing if it’s needed or doing bloodwork is overkill. I wouldn’t just add something in because I read it on the Internet it’s going to help me.
I believe it has its place I also believe it’s used to often.
yep nail on the head.
That's why I always keep Pharma Letrozol handy, if on the odd chance I get any estro sides Letro handles it quickly.
Boom
Truth!
-end thread
When I first started and didn’t have much of any significant muscle mass I was very estrogen sensitive. 8 years later I don’t need much of any ai... I don’t know the science of why, I just know my body.
Same here. Even our timeline is similar
RustyhookerMaybe desensiyized? Or body adjusted to control it like sbgh raises to lower outside test?
It has been said our bodies will seek out homeostasis, I think there is truth in that.