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irongame427
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+ 39 For the average gym rat

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So everyone (whos smart) starts out with a test cycle, and then sees all the other various compounds and gets curious and wants to experiment myself included. The wise ones are the dudes who are on theyre 5th cycle and are still running just test because they realized that it still works, but these people are few and far in between. Im not one of them either, but i might have been if i started using when i was 30 or older as the older i get the smarter and more health concious i get. This post is not for the guys who are trying to go far in competition, well it is at the early stages but there comes a point where what im about to post wont cut it anymore. And this isnt for the mass monsters, they probably wont see much growth with this concept, but i do know a few who use pretty low doses and are up in the 250s at 5'9 lean. This is for the average gym rat, the guys who just want to look good, get bigger then their genetics will allow, get shredded etc, goal weights of approx 6ft 240-250, and adjust accordingly if your shorter or taller. You can attain this type of size with what im gonna lay out.

After you run a basic test cycle or two, you dont need to start adding other drugs, you dont need to add deca, you dont need to add eq, you dont need to add tren etc. I hate that we call it "test only" as if raising your test levels 10 times what they are naturally is something to be taken lightly. You can reach a phenominal level of physique development with just a few basic drugs, really just 3. Hell you can build a crazy physique naturally if you have your diet down to a science and have some patience, so you dont need alot of gear to build a crazy physique. If you look around in the gym theres some straight monsters who are natty. Yes they probably have great genetics and thats why they are able to reach such a high level of development, but we have this thing called testosterone, and it basically evens the playing field. im 5'11, id like to be around 240-250 at 10% bf at some point in my life, hopefully in the next 2-3 years or so. Thats a pretty big dude by most peoples standards. After running test only cycles, and then getting curious and trying out the other compounds available to us and finding what works best for me, running some very complicated cycles ive decided to go back to the basics, For bulks all i need is some test e, or sust and some dbol as a kicker. At the end of the day its all diet, we all know this but how many people spend as much time reading and learning about dieting as they do about drugs? I love to read and learn so its not an issue for me, but if your the kinda person that likes to send me a pm and wait hours or a day for a question that can be easily answered in 3 seconds via a google search (meaning you dread reading and reasearching) , hire a good coach, then all you need to do is follow his directions, he will lay out your diet and training program for you so you dont need to spend the hours and hours each week reading and learning whens the best time to eat low glycemic carbs, when to spike your blood sugar to create an insulin response, when not to, when to eat faster digesting protein when to eat slower digesting protein etc etc etc, diet is a science, it can be made basic, (eat 6-8 balanced meals each day) or it can become very complex and thats how you squeeze the most out of each cycle. You can learn this yourself, or pay someone to do it for you. I suggest learning yourself, but the money your gonna save not having to buy deca, tren, eq, mast, and the ancillaries that you need with 19-nors and such you can use to hire a coach, or buy pharm grade gear, or both. All the drugs you need are offered pharm grade.

So anyways for the average gym rat like myself and the majority of others for bulks I think the only drugs necessary are some form of long estered test, and an oral, my pick is dbol. With a good diet and training program you will grow like a weed running that cycle. If you kept the same diet and ran two cycles, first is test and dbol, the second is test deca dbol, or test eq dbol, the net gains in muscle would be very similar, youd probably gain a few more pounds with the extra anabolic. But is a few extra pounds of muscle worth the money, potential side effects and extra stress on the body? I dont think so. Obviously you can take precautions to limit the impact on your body and side effects, but still, for the average gym rat who isnt trying to compete i think its best to avoid it all together.

So first, perfect diet
second consistent great training regime
third gear.

If your goal is to bulk this is my plan,
12-16 weeks of either test e or sust at 500-750mgs ew
30mgs of dbol the first 4-5 weeks, and probably the last 4 weeks
Optional 50mgs of proviron ed, i dont aromatize at a high rate and I like to keep my estro a little high when im trying to add muscle and proviron keeps my e2 pretty much right where i like it. When im on the dbol i will add .25mgs of adex 2-3 times ew to compensate for the large increase in estrogen from the dbol. And It increases free test, libido, keeps me harder and more vascular looking even when my cals an carbs are very high. Its a staple for me, but not necessary, some adex or aromasin will work just fine controlling your e2. But remember, estrogen is very anabolic, limiting it will limit muscle growth, the bit of extra water will make you stronger which can lead to more muscle, the water will comfort your joints letting you push harder leading to more muscle, and like i said estrogen in general is essential for muscle growth, dont short change yourself keeping it at 20, unless it causes you BP problems keep it a little higher when your bulking. Id rather use provi and nolva to keep gyno away then use a ton of adex and have to drop my estrogen really low.

And thats it, you eat correctly and train correctly this cycle will work time and time again, 2 drugs, test and dbol, if you prefer tbol then go for that. And optional proviron. And the best part about this is you can get pharm grade versions of all these drugs, test e, sust, dbol and proviron and if you know the right sources the test is basically the same price as ugl, the dbol is actually cheaper, the provi can be a little pricey but grab it when its on promo, youll be saving money not buying 3 vials of deca or eq or tren so you can use that to buy the best of the best. No guessing or worrying if your gear is accurately dosed, sterile etc, its pharm grade. I bet If your used to running 750mgs of ugl test, 500mgs of pharm grade will have feeling the same, and dbol, i know for a fact 20-30mgs of the two brands of pharm grade dbol available will blow the doors off 50mgs of ugl dbol.

Now if its time to get shredded obviously the most important thing and whats going to determine your results is your diet. Now two basic drugs will help you retain all the muscle you have, and if you really know how to eat you can even build some muscle in the process and leave you with a hard dry vascular polished look without using tren, mast, halo and other harsher drugs. Id even say this stack would be sufficent for local shows. I think the typical bodybuilding stack, tren test mast winny var halo is absurd for a low level show. If you ever see true naturals they manage to come in in great condition, obviously not as lean or big as the guys on gear, but they look pretty fucking good. So If its summer time, or its just time to strip the bodyfat and uncover the muscle youve worked so hard to build or like i said even for low level show these 2 drugs will aid in your quest and will be all you ever need to retain muscle and end with a shredded dry hard vascular polished look.

I prefer prop, but honestly test e will work just as well. youll hold a tiny bit more water but with an ai and the right diet you should be able to be just as dry as you would with prop. And then the last 6 weeks 30-40mgs of anavar. A few years ago real var was basically impossible to get. The standard recommened dose was 80-100mgs ed. With real var 100mgs ed would probably kill you, not really but idk what would happen. Talk to any of the guys who ran it when it first became available in the 80s and it came in 2.5mg tabs and they would take 15mgs, 20 max and it was so strong it would give them nose bleeds. These 100mg ed doses were due to severely underdosed var at best, but most likely tbol labled as var. In the last 2 years or so labs have upped their game and are putting out real, accurately dosed anavar. 10mg tabs are actually 10mgs, you can see whos putting out good var on anaboliclab. Its not that expensive when you only need to run 30mgs, but if thats to much for your budget winny is another option, its cheaper, less likely to be faked, but drys out your joints bad and also does a number on your cholesterol, as does var but there are some otc supps you can take to help with this, and for 6 weeks out of the year its not the end of the world. Ive been able to keep my cholesterol in check on orals using a combo of red yeast rice, policansol, extra strength fish oil, and sometimes ill add some garlic seed extract and coQ10. Ive given this protocol to alot of people over the years whos lipids were trashed and withing a month using this combo they were back to normal. And lastly again optional is proviron. I think this is great when cutting, i feel like its an oral version of mast, but it works at higher bfs. When youre lean it will really help give you that dry hard dense look, couple that with the effects of anavar and your set. My cycle would look something like this.

weeks 1-12 100-150mgs prop eod,
weeks 1-12 50mgs proviron ed split 25am 25pm
weeks 6-12 30mgs anavar ed split

So thats it, basically 3 drugs, 4 if you like proviron like I do. These 4 drugs are all at the very least 90% of us need. Again assuming you have a good diet the test and dbol will build all the muscle youll ever want, and the prop and var will produce that hard vascular dense look were all after. By keeping it simple like this you dont think about the gear as much and your main focus is on the things that actually determine your success or failure, diet and training. These two cycles are also less stressful on the body, especially the cutter using just prop and var instead of tren and mast and all the other shit we experiment with. And These are feel good cycles, you feel great on a good dose of test and dbol, theres minimal sides to counter compared to if you had deca in the mix. Personally I dont have issues with nandrolone but some people do and they end up with a no sex drive, a limp dick and leaky nipples. And again with prop and var the biggest problems youre gonna have is painful pumps from the anavar. No trensomnia, night sweats, the mind fuck tren can give you, the lethargy due to the fact tren will crash t3 levels in many users. And recovery will be so much easier after a test dbol or prop var cycle then after a 19-nor cycle. And its always nice to save money, that test dbol cycle not including pct i can buy right now for 100 dollars using pharm grade test and dbol, deca and caber would run me another 150 bucks easy. Prop and var is definitely the more expensive of the two but still reasonable compared to if i was buying tren and mast also, lets say 4 vials of tren a and 4 vials of mast p, that can be as much as 400 dollars more.

So thats my thoughts for us gym rats who just love to lift and get bigger and stronger and stay as healthy as possilble in the process. I started with the basics back when i first started cycling, and now im going back to them. I like to feel good on cycle and have fun, its not fun when i forget that i needed to increase my ai dose when i added dbol and the estro increase spiked my prolactin and killed my sex drive. No prolactin problems when the only drugs you run are test, dbol and anavar. When you start cycling the number of compounds available to us is overwhelming and its hard not to want to experiment. But my advice to new users is stick with the basics. Thats all the majority of us need to build the physique of our dreams. And there is no upregulation to the androgen receptor so test doesnt just stop working or require you to increase your dose every cycle to achieve the same results. What you do need to do every cycle and during every cycle is contunue to increase your calories, thats how you get big.

to recap, all the drugs youll ever need, so stock up during promos
Test (sust or e or c for bulks, prop for cuts if you want)
dbol (or tbol if thats your thing)
anavar (or winny if moneys tight or you just prefer it)
Proviron (optional but i highly recommend) Use some good prostate protection while on it

And everyone knows i love gh. It didnt make the list because the results you get from it running it by itself, even with test does not justify the price. If you can afford it then go ahead, it will keep you a iittle leaner during times when calories and carbs are high, and it will help with fat burning when you cut, help you sleep better etc etc. Luckily good quality gh is pretty affordable right now and I have a little extra cash so i can afford to run it, but if money was tight it would be the first thing to go, hundreds of dollars a month to stay a little leaner during bulks, id rather do 30mins of cardio a few times ew and some extra fat burning during cuts, again id rather do extra cardio.

irongame427's picture

Ya, anywhere from 5'10-6'2 at 250 is big. My best friend is 100% natural total freak of nature an he's 6'2 250 and he looks massive. And he's functional, he had scholarship offers for baseball and football, he's got family members who play pro rugby over in the UK, just a genetically blessed family. He doesn't know how to eat, he told me he was bulking so I asked where are you doing with your diet,, he goes "adding bacon to all my meals" lol. I have a very small frame, when I started training at 21 I was 125lbs, absolutely tiny. At one point last winter I was 100lbs heavier them that, 225. Then I partially tore my bicep tendon, I was out of the gym exxcdpf legs for a about 10 weeks. when that healed my business finally took off, then I got engaged and started panning our wedding, then we bought our first house and had to go through that whole mortgage process. so much shit happened in the last 5 months now that I think sbout it. . Life got crazy for a long time. Between the injury and all the other shit that was going on I lost a decent amount of size. But it's coming back quick. To hit 250 I need about 30lbs, 220-230 shouldn't be to hard, 230-240 will be more difficult, and 240-250 will be the hardest, those cycles the closer toward my goal might only net 4lbs of actual dry muscle tissue, idk not sure what to expect, but I'm patient. Before I'd start a cycle and think " I wanna gain 30lbs" I loved seeing the scale go up not even caring if the weight was fat. Getting past the scale and finally focusing on the mirror took s long time, but ever since then my gains have been much much leaner.

PPGfreak's picture

Good read bro, seriously

Teammarkout's picture

Interesting. Thanks for sharing

ironcarpenter52's picture

Pretty simple and well put. Just if more would read. I have learned so much through just this site alone, I should be jacked the fucked up. But like you said slower is better. Keeping it simple does wonders. Thanks for the post.

irongame427's picture

Thanks guys, just what I've gathered over the years and what I feel is best for a gym rat like myself and the fact that most of us on here are gym rats like me so I figured I'd share my plans and thoughts. It just sucks that I have 6 vials of deca and 7 vials of npp and no use for it, all good quality gear. I wish I could trade that for a bunch of sust and a bunch of test e. I'd have enough gear for like my next 8 cycles or 4 years. It would be really nice to not have to buy gear for 4 more years.

Pale's picture

Very good. This will likely become a sticky.

irongame427's picture

Thanks boss, that would be really cool.

fusebox's picture

Best write up on here in a long time +1 and the exact reason I have no plans to run anything other than test and provi when I do. Thanks.

BigWA67's picture

This one of the best post I've read on here in awhile very informative and to the point!! Thanks big dog

irongame427's picture

Exactly, most of us naturally are sitting around 500ish, so 500mgs typically puts people around 3000-4000ng/dl and bitch when it's underdosed. I hate getting underdosed gear myself but when your test levels are still over 2000 you're still gonna grow like a weed. About two years ago my test was underdosed by about 40% I'd estimate based off my bloodwork, I still put on a little over 20lbs. Obviously not all muscle or close to it some water and fat but still i added a ton of size and strength cause I ate like a pig and trained hard as hell. I love how simple a test dbol cycle is, like you said less stress, less sides, 2 pins ew and a few pills everyday them just eat and train and grow. The more I think about it the more excited I get about this winter bulk after my wedding and honey moon.

Blood's picture

I read the whole thing. Very informative.

Thanks

Dickkhead's picture

Excellent bro.

What you are advocating is a return to sanity.

I know so many guys in the gyms where I train that load up on stacks of drugs. Quality anabolics, not bunk gear - and, they have nothing to show for it. The more available and cheaper the drugs get, the worse the situation - bigger stacks, longer cycles and virtually nothing in the way of results. +2

SenseiMiagi's picture

Very good info. Thanks for putting the thought and time into this, hopefully you typed it from a keyboard...I know this much text would take me out hours on my phone....then another hour fixing all the typos lol. Im a nornal gymrat myself, so all this certainly reasonates with me. Priorities change. Jumped on the tren train as soon as I learned how to brew it years ago. No more for me, and I advise against it to all that ask that dont compete for anything other than pussy. +1

tonytulo's picture

This is by far the best post ive read on eroids hands down. If Viking was here he'd say something similar I'm sure.

I've preached diet diet diet and training here for a long time. Instead we have more focus on drugs than anything. Guys walking around looking looking like average gym goers who have put a little time in. There are quite a few bigger guys here too. But, way more average guys then anything.

We need more reality here, An its good to see a few guys standing up and putting their foot down on the guys trying to get into shape with drugs. Drugs aren't made to get into shape. They are purely a supplement not a fucking dependency. The guys trying to run drugs too soon will eventually turn into the guy your describing extremely complex cycles with a ton of moving parts that make some of the most reckless pros seem normal. An before you know it a steroid junkie is born.

I don't know about you, or any of the other members here. But, do you get offended when someone looks at you and says something demeaning like "its all drugs bodybuilding" Or "You wouldn't be where you are without drugs" Or "I could look like you too with steroids" ? I know it bothers me. An its because of this big misconception that drugs do the work, or they're some magic bean. Anytime I hear this I feel the need to defend our lifestyle And our sport of bodybuilding and fitness. Not because I have to , but because I want to and I have love for it. Its good to see I'm not the only one and the site is going in the right direction. You members drive the ship.

Ever notice how all those old pro tags don't log on anymore? Notice how one by one those bigger monsters slowly fade away? To much emphasizing on drugs , when drugs are in fact an extremely small key to this lifestyle. 55%diet 40%training 5%drugs

This is an extremely straight forwards and real post, no sugar coating and its educated. This IMO needs to be a sticky.

Proud of how far you have come here Iron. You used to be one of those guys remember? Used to be all about drugs and your super clean diet lol.....Viking and I telling you wtf are you doing.

Now you've seen the light and figured out the secret. No secret at all just diet and training.

Posts like this make me want to be more involved even tho my time is tight and I'm busier these days.

konig's picture

Great reply as usual.. and I have not seen a pro tag on here in ages..

Catalyst's picture

We need more reality here, An its good to see a few guys standing up and putting their foot down on the guys trying to get into shape with drugs.

It's got ridiculous IMO. It's actually a rarity to get someone come on that's actually put some graft in for more than 10 minutes these days. It's lazy, it doesn't work and it annoys the piss out of me. I've largely stopped explaining it in PG terms, it's the 18 version coming through.

I don't know about you, or any of the other members here. But, do you get offended when someone looks at you and says something demeaning like "its all drugs bodybuilding" Or "You wouldn't be where you are without drugs" Or "I could look like you too with steroids"

Certainly irritates me and I'm known for being tolerant. It's all steroids is it? What about the 25 years of pretty much constant soreness? The numerous orthopaedic surgeries from injuries? Eating correctly day in day out for a quarter of a century, can everyone do that? I doubt it. It's all drugs is it?

Dickkhead's picture

An its good to see a few guys standing up and putting their foot down on the guys trying to get into shape with drugs.

Now it's like every new account. Add to that I can't imagine how many members lurking in the shadows doing this who will never comment or post. It's a pandemic. The post on this topic from last month is now sitting at 1,750 views. Now this excellent post. Prolly should be moved to General for more exposure??

tonytulo's picture

Yep

chc253's picture

Solid info bro +1

Gymjunkie01's picture

Good post and I agree with 99%of what you said for the average guy...sending you a pm +2

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